referred to the lantus group - need a little help

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babbie & otto

babbie & otto

Member Since 2015
Hey
Otto is a 3 legged wonder boy that got depressed when his best 2 buddies died within 2 years (1 dog due to cancer and Annabelle a kitty due to rat poinsoning by dumb neighbor). Anyway, he wouldnt leave the house and ate alot. I come home from vacation and he's skinny. Rush him to the vet - ketones, insulin and a diagnosis. My sheet shows whats been going on but I followed the 1st vets recommendation of home testing and royal canin and changing around on the lantus. Couldnt get blood in the beginning as he was so dehydrated none would come out. Read some and decided the RC was too high in carbs so tried chicken and realized it didnt have the fiber. Went to an internist who then put him on 5u lantus and Hills diabetic and told me not to test and just let him be for 2 weeks. Then I read alot more and started on FF no gravy and started posting with you guys. My 1st vet wants me on 2u but I went with 1.5 then lowered to 1. So , here we are with numbers dropping, no ketones since 1st vet visit and Im seeing a tiny upswing happening. Otto is gaining weight, coat looks better and has never been sick or depressed or lethargic. Mainly hungry. I feed him only FF and a little cooked chicken as a treat. Any advice from looking at my ss would be greatly appreaciated. I love this guy!
 
Welcome to the group. I'm not able to advise you on dosing, since I'm pretty inexperienced, but I can tell you that Lantus is dosed by the low point which we refer to as the "nadir". You may need to run a curve to find out just what that is. To do that, you'll need to test every two hours for a cycle. I'm sure a more experienced member will be along soon who can give you more information on running curves and figuring out dosing. You're in the right place!
 
Welcome to Lantus/Levemir Land!

Can you get a few more tests in on the PM cycle? A lot of cats go lower at night, so it's important to get at least a "before bed" test in case they're dropping too low or too fast so you can set an alarm to get up later.

Also, on the AM cycle, you're doing great at testing at +7 pretty much every cycle, but is there any way you can get a few tests in at different times or do you work and can only get the AMPS and +7?

With the limited data available, I think you could go ahead and increase to 1.25, but it would really help if you can get a few more tests in. We think of the spreadsheet kind of like a puzzle. If the only pieces you have filled in are the edges, it's hard to see what the whole picture is, but if you have pieces sprinkled throughout, it makes it easier to see the whole picture
 
Welcome to Lantus & Lev Land.

I'm glad to hear the ketones are under control. They can be worrisome. While high numbers can be one factor,there are other considerations that contribute to the development of ketones. I'd encourage you to keep testing for ketones as a preventative measure.

I'd likewise encourage you to get at least a "before bed" test every night. You have a couple of options with regard to your approach to dosing but it's always best to do what you can to get spot checks during both the AM and PM cycles.

I think you're OK to raise Otto's dose to 1.25u. I'd also suggest reading the sticky notes at the top of the Board. There's a huge amount of information there and it will take a while to absorb it all. But, the info will help you to learn the fundamentals.
 
I'd also like to add my "Welcome to L&LL!" You are doing a great job getting Otto on track. I agree with the others about increasing to 1.25U, and grabbing a few more tests here and there to help fill in the blanks.

As Sienne said, the stickies have a ton of info, so please ask as many questions as you need...everyone here is very generous with their knowledge!!
 
Great job filling in all those extra rows from the beginning! Thanks for doing that!

And welcome to the best place you never wanted to be.:)
 
Hello there :cool:

Welcome - as you can see plenty of experienced folks here to help you navigate safely .

What a difference the change to LC canned can make! I see you noted the change on 02/27 -
Was it 'cold turkey' ?
Is dry now out of the picture?

Also, add my voice to the 'keep testing for ketones' chorus as well. ;)
 
Hi and Welcome to the group :)
Otto sounds like a very sweet and friendly kitty, and I can see how he is a joy to you.

I agree with the increase to the 1.25 units, and the suggestion to try to get more night time tests, please, as they often go lower at night.
Also, my cat was a DKA survivor, so ketones are extra scary to me. Please be diligent about the testing for ketones.
 
@babbie This may be something I missed, but have you had a chance to look at the two different protocols that are available? (Tight Regulation or Start Low, Go Slow - SLGL) Knowing what protocol is going to work best with your schedule will help those who can give dosing advice, do so.

Once you decide with option you are going to go with, it would be helpful to add that to your signature link, so people know what advice to give based on the protocol you are on...

Welcome to an amazing family, everyone here is willing and ready to help!
 
thanks for all the advice - I do work but can make it home to do some addtitonal tests. I did one nightime at plus 2 and it was same as pmps. Good thing Im going up to1.25 as this morning was 476!!! I dont know what protocol Im on as I sure didnt start slow and go slow but it looks like thats what Im trying now. Yes dry is out, I have some dry Evo and he would happily eat anything I put out. Never been picky. Definately cannot free feed this cat. He ate the plastic top from my injection needle b/c I dropped it.
 
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You're not necessarily doing the Start Low, Go Slow Protocol

There are a couple of main differences between the 2 protocols.

On Tight Regulation (which gives your cat the best chance at remission) we increase the dose more frequently (as quickly as every 6 cycles) and decrease if they drop below 50/68 on AlphaTrak. If you can test at least 3-4 times a day (both Pre-shots and 1 test mid-cycle on the AM and at least a "before bed" on the PM) you can do Tight Regulation. We have lots of people on TR that work full time jobs. Here's a sticky on "Is Tight Regulation Possible with a full time job?" for you to read. There's lots of ideas on how others deal with it.

On SLGS, doses are held for a week (unless they drop below 90), but it's still always important to get pretty much the same 3-4 tests per day. We have people doing SLGS do curves on their days off (test every 2 or 3 hours for an entire cycle) to help with dose decisions. This is a much less aggressive protocol, but also extremely safe, but with less chance of having your kitty go into remission (although we have had it happen!!)

In the end, it's more of which you're more comfortable with

You might consider getting an auto-feeder. It allows you to program it to open so Otto would have food available to him throughout the day while you're at work. One that a lot of people here use is the Petsafe 5
 
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I really want remission! If I am understanding you correctly ( I am on 1.25 - just increased yesterday) I should hold this dose for 3 days, see if his nadir goes below 200 which is not looking likely, then increase by .25 after the 1st 3 days of this? Trying hard to get this right. Checked him today:
plus 4 (329) plus 9 (360). Cant do any kind of auto feeder- he would destroy it. I read that it was possible and he is the strongest 3 legged cat you have ever seen. thanks
 
You're at this point in the TR protocol (looks like that's which protocol you want to try)

Increasing the dose:
  • Hold the dose for 3 - 5 days (6 - 10 consecutive cycles) if nadirs are less than 200 before increasing the dose by 0.25 unit.
    • if your cat is new to numbers under 200, it is recommended to hold the dose for at least 8-10 cycles before increasing.
    • when your cat starts to see nadirs under 100, hold the dose for at least 10 cycles before increasing.
  • After 3 days (6 consecutive cycles)... if nadirs are greater than 200, but less than 300 increase the dose by 0.25 unit.
  • After 3 days (6 consecutive cycles)... if nadirs are greater than 300 increase the dose by 0.5 unit.
Click to expand...

Are you going to continue to use the AlphaTrak meter? If you are, it changes the number that you'd take a reduction to below 68 instead of below 50

If you'll come here every day and start a new post (we call them condo's) we'll all help guide you on when to increase as well as by how much. Each day you just start a new post, put the link to the prior day's post into the current one (so it's easy for people to quickly go back and see what's been going on) and then let us know how Otto is doing.

It'll also help for you to spend some time reading other people's condos! You'll learn a lot as well as possibly see questions you didn't even know you had!

Good job with the tests today!!
 
Hi Babbie!

Just want to point out that all the black numbers have disappeared from Otto's spreadsheet since you dropped the dose.:) He's not in great numbers yet, but at least he's not in black numbers.

The typical process that pretty much every cat ends up doing, is that you start with x dose, then you increase in small increments (most of the time 0.25u). There are a few things that are kind of counter-intuitive about Lantus until you understand how they work. One thing is that as you increase the dose, many cats won't come down incrementally - you know, like you increase a little and their numbers come down a little. Instead, they'll often stay in the same higher range and then when you hit the sweet spot in a dose, suddenly the whole range will come down.

So don't be discouraged that you're still seeing yellows and pinks on the spreadsheet.

Another counter-intuitive thing is something we call "New Dose Wonkiness." Some cats react to an increase in dose with higher numbers. Not all cats have that, but some do. It might last a day or so, and then you'll see what the dose can do.

The reason Chris is suggesting you get a before-bed test is because we have a lot of cats that have their lowest blood sugar at night - and since Lantus dosing is based upon how low the cat is going on a particular dose, it's helpful to test in the pm cycle. Doesn't have to be any particular time, just when it works for you.

So yes, if you want to try following the TR Protocol, you re-evaluate the dose every 6 cycles and decide if you need to hold it longer or increase again. If he goes below 68, you would decrease the dose.

Here is a post that you might want to bookmark "Where Can I Find?" It's basically a table of contents of the information on the Lantus/Lev Insulin Support Group and it also has some interesting posts that address a variety of topics.

In the meantime - carry on - you're doing great at getting spot checks in! I think of the spreadsheet like a jigsaw puzzle. As you get a sprinkling of tests in here and there you can see the picture develop very clearly about what's going on in the cat's body. You don't need every piece in the jigsaw puzzle to see the picture, just a scattering here and there. If a spreadsheet only has preshot tests, it's like having only the edge pieces on the puzzle and it's very difficult to see what the actual picture is.
 
Otto is a very handsome guy! But then we are rather partial to black cats. :) Welcome to Lantus/Levemir Land. You have several very experienced members helping you out and they are fabulous.
Liz
 
so tonights test at pmps was 468. I have not complained about the blood draw but he hates it. He knows whats happening and will come to the spot so he can get a treat but I was bit for real this time and scratched bad. He usually warns me but 4 sticks today really sent him over the edge. Id like to skip tonight if possible (I have done one test at 9pm and it was same exact as pmps.) Want to give the guy a break when I can but yall are asking for nightime numbers. While his numbers are this high, can I skip any and let the poor fellow relax?
 
Hello and welcome. I really like the name Otto, and that's the name of Neko's best friend, Otto-feeder.:smuggrin:

The testing does get easier over time. Are you putting Neosporin with pain relief on his ears afterwards?
 
2 answers - on 3/2 I did a 9pm test and it was the same as 7 pm test.
I did buy the neosporin with pain relief tonight but he wont go for the ears unless wrapped in a towel and held down. I go for the paw - he will actually reach out with it laying down but then start hissing and warning me then tonight I got the bite and scratch. Just too many times in one day for him. He's a lover and a fighter.
 
We're all in different parts of the world, so real times don't mean much to us....that's why you see so many of us talking in "+ time".....it's how many hours since the last shot. 3 hours after a shot is +3, 8 hours after is +8, etc....so you'd have +1 through +11 on each cycle

You can't compare one day to another, so just because on 3/2 there wasn't any change between PMPS and +2 doesn't mean the same thing will happen again

Is the 468 that you got at PMPS the only test you've gotten tonight?
 
Yes, I only stuck him once tonight he was so mad I couldnt go near him without him flapping that tail for fear of more needles. Im going to do it tonight +4. Still high this amps - 468.
 
Are you giving him a nice low carb treat after taking the test. You should give him something after each time so it can become an okay experience . I use freeze dried chicken treats.
 
So, how to desensitize your kitty so you don't get bit....

You're doing well by giving a treat or food or something that Otto likes each time that you test. Even if it's a botched test, he gets a treat!

The other thing you can do it bring him to wherever it is that you test and give him a treat. No test -- just a treat. That way, he won't ever be quite sure whether he's going to get a test but you're still reinforcing his being in the test spot. If he bites or swats, take him off of the testing place and he doesn't get a treat. He'll learn that good behavior gets rewarded. This will work if he's food motivated. If he's not food motivated, then we need a different plan.
 
He gets the treats, I bought the freeze dried chicken etc. He comes to me lovingly and purring sits on the towel then when its time he hisses and warns but this time the bite. Im not scared at all just tired of what he considers to be abuse. Ill get a test later tonight around 10 after my pmps. I do work and its been challenging getting home to get the 2pm and others. Thanks for being here. I feel like such a dummy and failure half the time
 
Well you shouldn't feel like that you are doing brilliantly. It isn't easy to begin with and we all remember to well how confusing the stressful the early days were. Keep posting up and asking for help, that the best way to learn the ropes.
 
now that I am dosing in the .25 etc ranges I need a syringe that has that broken down. Mine only does the 1-2-3--4-5 etc. I saw one that looked ok online but it didnt show a close up. advice?
 
There are several brands of syringes that show o.5 unit markings, that's as low as they go. There are pictures of how to measure the smaller doses in the New to the Group sticky, about 3/4 of the way down. The other thing that some of us use are calipers for measuring doses. Here is a note on how to dose with calipers.
 
If you live in the US, WalMart has their Relion brand syringes and they all come with .5 unit markings. They're about $13 for a box of 100

Some of their pharmacists don't realize they have syringes with half unit markings, but all the Relion brand syringes do have them
 
Don't feel like a dummy - this is all new! It's a bit like a college crash course in Feline Diabetes 101 - and fortunately, you've got lots of coaches who all remember what it was like to be starting out. There are no dumb questions. I had to burrito-wrap punkin really tight in a beach towel when we started - it was pretty grim. It took about 2 weeks and then he gave up. He wasn't one of those cats that ever came running to be tested, but he would come when i called and he never fought me again.

It sucks to feel like you're hurting your precious cat that you love so much. I consoled myself with knowing that he HAD to have it to keep him safe. I also figured that the way cats often are with fights . . . their ears can get pretty raggedy if they are a street cat and I didn't think it really hurt punkin much. I just don't think he wanted to be messed with.

The important thing about dosing is that you can replicate your dose again. You 1.25u doesn't need to look like anyone else's - you just want to be able to repeat it, increase it or decrease it as needed. Some people save a used syringe with colored water in it (tea, coffee) and use it as a comparison to try to keep the dose constant.

I think as long as you're having a hard time with the testing, I would get just one test somewhere in the midcycle for each cycle, plus the preshots. So instead of getting 2 daytime tests today, just get one and then in the evening cycle get one more before you go to bed. As he accepts the testing everything will get easier!

Ketones all still negative?
 
ketones are awesome! just got pmps (455). think I need to test at midnight tonight. Havent done that. His +7 today was 384 so if he drops low it must be at nite or Ill be increasing soon I think. My husband lives a long way away and I usually visit on weekends. Last weekend was he worst. So scared the whole time. Im fine when its high but doesnt this hurt his organs being this high???
 
It's not good for him to be so high, no, but cats do tolerate it for a while as long as there are no ketones. that's the biggest risk.

I hate to push you, but in order to help you with dosing, you are going to need to choose either the Tight Regulation Protocol or the Start Low Go Slow method. Here's a little spiel some of us wrote on it to help people make a decision:

Welcome to Lantus and Lev land – the best place you probably never wanted to be! If you are like most of us, if this is your first few weeks of trying to wrap your head around the fact that your kitty has diabetes, you’ve no doubt been terrified, in tears, in a state of shock, and completely overwhelmed. Don’t worry. It gets easier. It really does.

None of us here are veterinary professionals but many of us have been working with our cat’s diabetes for a long time. Even those of us who have been here for a short time are here to help. This is a wonderfully supportive community.

There are a few first steps. We firmly believe that home testing is the best way to keep your cat safe. We keep a record of our cat’s blood glucose (BG) data on a spreadsheet (SS) which you can create using these instructions: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/...te-a-ss-and-link-it-in-your-signature.130337/. If you’ve not mastered home testing, we’re happy to offer suggestions or you may want to spend some time on the Health board mastering the basics of testing, low carb diet, and getting your SS set up. We’re happy to help you with those things, but you should be aware that this is a busy board and if there’s an emergency, everyone’s attention goes to helping the caregiver and his/her kitty.

Once you’ve got a handle on the basics, you will have the option of following the Tight Regulation Protocol or the Start Low Go Slow (SLGS) method for managing your cat’s diabetes. You don’t have to stick with whichever approach you initially choose but it is helpful to give your choice a chance so you can evaluate the results fairly.

The Tight Regulation protocol was developed based upon the premise that a cat's pancreas may be able to heal and return to producing insulin if the cat's BG is kept in a normal range (i.e., 50-120}. Caregivers following this protocol adjust insulin doses following the protocol guidelines to aim for that range. Basic information on the TR is here: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/lantus-levemir-tight-regulation-protocol.1581/. The advantage of this approach is that it is based on research published in a leading veterinary journal and has an admirable track record of getting cats who are within the first year since diagnosis into remission.

The Start Low Go Slow (SLGS) approach has caregivers start with an initial dose based upon the BG at diagnosis and whether kitty has been transitioned to a wet low carb diet, hold that dose for a week or two while testing for ketones regularly, being consistent with food and testing before shooting every 12 hours. Once a week a curve is done (test every 2 hours for one cycle) to check for the lowest point. the low number in that curve determines any dose change for the following week. This approach was the original method used in the FDMB prior to the TR protocol. It is an alternate approach if TR is not the right fit for you or your kitty. Basic information on the SLGS approach is here: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/lantus-levemir-start-low-go-slow-method-slgs.129446/.

Both approaches require that you test at pre-shot times and do your best to test at least once each 12-hour cycle. Lantus and Lev dosing is based on the lowest number in the cycle (i.e., the nadir) so getting at least one spot check is important to guide your dosing decisions.

If you are switching to lantus or levemir from any other insulin, please post for suggestions on the starting dose before you change insulins. You should also get your vet’s recommendation.

Amy&Trixie, Dyana&(GA)J.D., Julie&(GA) Punkin, Marje&Gracie, Sandy&Black Kitty, Sienne&Gabby, Wendy&Neko​




Regarding your visits to your husband - we can help you figure that out. Will you have someone to give the shots or test? If a cat is getting shots but not being tested, usually people will decrease the dose some so there is no chance of the cat getting into low numbers. The day before you're going to go the next time, just post and ask for help figuring out what to do with the dose while you're gone, depending on how you answer the questions i've already posed in this paragraph.

I'm thrilled the ketones are still negative! you're doing a great job!
 
someone told me it looked like I was in the Tight Regulation Protocol. Ive read and re read. Im sticking with the 3 day cycle and it is looking like I will be increasing by .50 (according to protocol if he's above the 300 range in nadir). My question is: from this mornings reading and midnight last night why wouldnt I go ahead and increase? I like to ask questions - just that kind of person. That is, unless I go out of town which I feel safe doing with his numbers this high then maybe go up by .25???
 
Yes you said you were trying for remission, so were going to do TR....If you'll add that to your signature line it'll keep us from continually asking over and over again.

You want to hold the 1.25 for tonight's PMPS cycle and then if Otto doesn't get into at least blue numbers tonight, you could go up in the morning. If you're going to be out of town and nobody is able to test, I think I'd wait to increase.

I know it seems like a tiny increase won't make any difference since Otto is so high, but we've seen it before where even cats in high numbers reached a point where all the sudden everything just "clicked" and they came racing down, so it's better to be safe. A few more days in higher numbers is safer than 1 minute too low.

If you decide to stay home over the weekend and Otto doesn't get any lower than the 300's tonight, you could go up to 1.75

Please start a new condo tomorrow. This one's getting pretty long. Just put the date, name and the AMPS number in the Title line and in the body of the message, put the link to the prior post and give us the "WCR" (Whole Cat Report)...This includes things like how Otto is feeling, are the 5 P's in place? (playing, peeing, pooping, purring and preening) Otto is more than just his numbers, so we'd love to learn more about him!
 
Thanks, I am going out of town but they will be testing but dont think I can ask for a test at midnite. Do you think AMPS/+6/PMPS is adequate for a .25 increase?
 
Can they get a test at PMPS +2?

That +2 is a lot like a crystal ball and can give you a good idea of what the cycle is going to be like and if they might need to make arrangements to get another test in later on.

If the +2 is lower than the Pre-shot, that can be an "early warning system" that you might be having an active cycle and need to test more
 
yes, I bet I can do that!! Usefull info. So far his only +2 was the same as the pmps. What is an active cycle?
I just found a vet tech that will come do the pmps and the +2 all weekend.
Question: bump to 1.50u from 1.25 or bump to 1.75?
 
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Re your question. You might find this link useful

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/lantus-levemir-new-to-the-group-please-read.18139/

NOTE: Until kitty is pretty well regulated, the description below is NOT not what you'd consider a "typical" Lantus cycle. It takes time and patience for kitty to achieve a "typical" cycle! The example below is what you're working towards (a nice shallow curve). A relatively flat cycle is the ultimate goal.

Example of an ACTIVE, but NOT necessarily typical Lantus cycle:

+0 - PreShot number.
+1 - Usually higher than PreShot number because of the last shot wearing off. May see a food spike in this number.
+2 - Often similar to the PreShot number. You'll probably see an active cycle if the +2 is the same/similar or lower than the preshot number. Continue testing!
+3 - Lower than the PreShot number, onset has started.
+4 - Lower.
+5 - Lower.
+6 - Nadir/Peak (the lowest number of cycle. NOTE: ECID. Not every cat has a mid-cycle nadir. Adjust the hours on this example to fit your cat.)
+7 - Surf (hang around the nadir number).
+8 - Slight rise.
+9 - Slight rise.
+10 - Rising.
+11 - Rising (one of the quirks of Lantus/Levemir: some cat's blood glucose numbers dip around +10 or +11... not to be confused with nadir).
Click to expand...
 
I think I'd only go up to 1.5 if you're going to increase....it would also get you back "on the lines" if you have syringes with .5 unit markings and it's always easier to measure when you're on a line.

Can your vet tech get other tests if needed? It's still going to be important to get a mid-cycle test if at all possible.

When the +2 is lower than the Pre-shot, it can mean that they're going to drop lower during that cycle than they usually do....and MAY drop too low...a "more active" cycle than usual

If the +2 is about the same as the Pre-shot, it usually means a more "normal" cycle....that gradually drops and then gradually goes back up to the next Pre-shot time

If the +2 is higher, it can mean the beginning of a bounce where they're going to be higher during that cycle, so might be a good cycle to take a pokey break.

ECID but the "+2 rule" is just something we've seen usually works for most cats
 
I always like to look back at the guidelines whenever i'm deciding on a dose change. You'll see me do this ad nauseum, but i like to look at the part below and then go to the spreadsheet, and then decide what to do with the dose. Look here for the TR Protocol guidelines that have the AlphaTrak numbers in them, although they are basically the same as below.

Increasing the dose:
  • Hold the dose for 3 - 5 days (6 - 10 consecutive cycles) if nadirs are less than 200 before increasing the dose by 0.25 unit.
    • if your cat is new to numbers under 200, it is recommended to hold the dose for at least 8-10 cycles before increasing.
    • when your cat starts to see nadirs under 100, hold the dose for at least 10 cycles before increasing.
  • After 3 days (6 consecutive cycles)... if nadirs are greater than 200, but less than 300 increase the dose by 0.25 unit.
  • After 3 days (6 consecutive cycles)... if nadirs are greater than 300 increase the dose by 0.5 unit.
From this I'd say you need 6 consecutive cycles on the 1.25u dose - you have 5 as of this morning. All the nadirs I can see are over 300 AT. I would go with the part I highlighted above and increase by 0.5u as soon as you have 6 cycles at the 1.25u.

You're getting a lot of good tests in - you will feel the most confident if you have one mid-cycle in every cycle whenever you can. Just in case Otto sneaks in anything lower but doesn't linger on it for long! Cats do that to us sometimes!!! :smuggrin:

It's great you've got a vet tech coming! That's what I did too - someone who worked in my vet's office. How long are you gone? I think your amps, +6, pmps are probably fine - but then i'd also leave plenty of low carb food out overnight. The pm +2 would be ideal if you can arrange it, but if you can't it's probably ok.

You could also wait to increase until you come back. Make sure your vet tech knows what to do if she runs into low numbers - less than 68 AT. On the doc I linked above it says 80, but the newer AT docs reference 68 as the blood sugar line where you need to intervene and keep the cat over that point. Sometimes people will have the petsitter check with every test (I had my son do that) and you can always post and get help from us here.

Enjoy visiting with your husband!
 
Thanks, I love this guy - he's actually going to be a vet and interning with my vet (ex husband!!). Trying this protocol with him wanting me on Royal Canin is awkward at best. I try not to discuss with him - just you guys. I started this am with 1.75 I think. Hard to tell with these itty bitty lines - I brought home some 3.0 readers and use a flashlight.
Otto not pooping much - maybe his body is utilizing the food and we will see some weight gain. Im adding water to the food then put water in his can and he drinks the whole thing. The heated ear really works - I had blood gushing last nite.
Im on a dif computer and it wont let me add our numbers but Im excited about yesterday and last nite
amps 538/pmps 362/+3 346
today amps 418
that's good for otto in the am!
 
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