Re: Simba PMPS 446, +4 272, +8 avg:113

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Sarah and Simba

Sarah and Simba

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Starting new thread.. from this one

I'm an idiot. I got glucose strips, NOT ketone strips - I haven't been checking his ketones at all!!
Sorry about all the false positives on that.
The vet isn't worried about ketones right now, we just went over his blood tests and urinalysis over the phone.

Thanks for the info on why to give HC... I still don't quite understand. Is it because HC is absorbed/converted at a different rate, and that's what makes it good for hypo cats?
Unfortunately Simba's only ever eated dried food or 'recovery formula' wet food. it's high in protein, so she's happy to keep him on this diet for now (he's really not touching the dry anymore) but I'm afraid he won't eat any other wet food. Vet understandably would need literature to assess the need for high carb.

Test results:
Date sample taken and to the lab:

liver and kidney a little high
kidney:
BUN - 14.5
creatin - within normal

Liver:
ALT - normal: (10-100 is normal range) he's 130. med changes: zintinel & 1/4 URSO once a day Urso prevents sludging
omega 3 - effa caps

trigycerides & cholesterol high

white count normal

nutrafill were a little high - 10.3
cetaphil were little high

urinalysis shows bladder infection. med changes: orbax


Other info:
1/2 life for ketones: 50-80 hrs
cyproheptadine if needed
cosequin daily

Will do a 2hr curve Sunday and re-evaluate dosage Monday.

So. That's where we stand. Thanks for all the help and support everybody. I'll continue reading and post today's questions here if and when they come up. I think my first order of the day is to STOP STRESSING.
Thanks again :)
Sarah.
 
Re: D'oh. wrong strips. not ketones. Simba AMPS 392, +5 391

PS: I'm going to pick up ketone strips and the new meds in a little bit.
 
Re: D'oh. wrong strips. not ketones. Simba AMPS 392, +5 391

I think that stopping stressing is a good goal! It's all very overwhelming when you first get the dx, then when you discover FDMB, it's overwhelming all over again because of the amount of info. We've all been there! Keep reading, asking questions, we will help you. Above all, breathe! It will get better, honest!

The vet may not be worried about ketones, but I would suggest that you pick up ketostix and start testing regularly. It's unlikely the vet will pay the ER bill if he ends up with DKA. ;-) An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure...especially with ketones. Remember that your vet is your partner in treating this disease....you do the day to day management, not the vet.

As far as using HC food to deal with hypo....if it's a symptomatic hypo, we would suggest you use karo syrup to bring numbers up quickly, and get him to the vet. Strictly speaking, we use HC food to manage low numbers and PREVENT hypo. If your vet is advising you to not use HC food to manage low numbers, then I would be asking for his cell phone number so you can call him for advice when he drops low at 3 AM. ;-)
 
Re: D'oh. wrong strips. not ketones. Simba AMPS 392, +5 391

Yep stop stressing, we all goof up once in a while. I can't speak to most of the numbers but if creatin is good and BUN is high it is probably from the higher protein foods. Blood Urea Nitrogen is a waste product of metabolizing protein. It' good to know about the infection too. That can be a cause of higher BG numbers and they should go down when the infection is cleared up.
 
Re: D'oh. wrong strips. not ketones. Simba AMPS 392, +5 391

regarding hypo, what I have is honey in case of emergency. syringes filled with honey, placed in bags located strategically around the house. (lol)
The pharmacy nearby didn't have ketostix so I'm off to find them elsewhere :)

Thanks for your kind & calming words :)

Thanks also for your comment on HC food to manage low numbers. I can clearly see that so many people have found HC food very effective. I would love to see any data/literature to support the anecdotal evidence so that I could take it to my vet. I'm sure she'd love to know :)

Breeeeeaaathing...

Sarah.
 
Re: D'oh. wrong strips. not ketones. Simba AMPS 392, +5 391

Thanks Ann :)
Thanks for the info on BUN/creatin & de-stress wishes!

He has a tooth infection too. So now he's on two different antibiotics.
I'll update his profile and post it in sig when I get a chance.
For now, I've found a place with ketostix!
off to the pharmacy.

Sarah.
 
Re: D'oh. wrong strips. not ketones. Simba AMPS 392, +5 391

I'd like to know what your vet advises you use instead of HC food?

I haven't looked for literature, simply because A) it makes sense, and B) it works. There's a TON of evidence right here. That's good enough for me! I'm sure if you search on google, you could find some research showing that high carb foods bring up low blood sugar.
 
Re: D'oh. wrong strips. not ketones. Simba AMPS 392, +5 391

I haven't been able to find anything conclusive, aside from all this anecdotal evidence.
Vet recommends that if he gets *too* low, give honey
edit: Also told me to do this
 
Re: D'oh. wrong strips. Simba AMPS 392, +5 391, +8 463

You have GOT to test for ketones. If Simba has an infected tooth and numbers are running high, it can increase the risk of ketones developing. I agree with Laurie -- if the vet is that unconcerned, ask for his cell phone number AND credit card 'cause you'll be calling at 3 AM and charging the ER bill to him. That's why prevention is important.

The rationale for using HC food is based on basic biochemistry. Carbohydrates are sugars -- either simple sugars or complex sugars. The only difference between protein and a carbohydrate is a nitrogen group on a protein molecule. Low carb food, low glycemic index foods (e.g., a sweet potato vs. white potato which is high glycemic index), and protein take longer to be metabolized. HC, because it is easier to convert to basic glucose, enters the bloodstream more quickly and raises BG more quickly. A different example is with humans who suffer from hypoglycemia. In order to keep BG levels even (vs. dropping), people are encouraged to eat complex carbs and protein usually in combination or to emphasize protein in their diet. Since the foods are metabolized at different rates, this keeps BG at a relatively steady state.

Most human diabetics are told to eat a piece of candy or keep something like cola syrup around if they need to raise their BG levels should they test low. The simple sugars will cause BG levels to spike.

At an even simpler level, what do you do if you are really, really hungry and getting light headed? You do what we all do -- you eat. If you were really feeling lousy because you were hungry, chances are you'd reach for something sweet (candy) or carby (chips). It raises BG faster than a piece of chicken.

The vet is concerned, and rightly so, about a symptomatic hypoglycemic episode. If you test, Simba should never experience that. If you read the protocol, in order to earn a dose reduction, a newly diagnosed cat's BG has to drop below 50. We then use HC food to steer the numbers back up rather than let a cat sit for hours in low numbers. Leaving a cat in low numbers would be a risk for symptomatic hypoglycemia. Gabby's numbers have his 28. She's had no symptoms.
 
Re: D'oh. wrong strips. Simba AMPS 392, +5 391, +8 463

testing for ketones are the reason I went for a long walk in cold wet weather tonight. I gots me strips. Finally. I thought I WAS testing for ketones, but turns out I'd originally purchased the wrong strips :(

Thanks for the rationale description with regards specifically to why HC is better than protein for raising BG's. I'll print your descrip and bring it to vet on it's own if I can't manage to find empirical evidence to go along with it.

This is the only piece of advice she's questioned, the advice I've received here has coincided pretty consistently - which tells me she's a good doctor and the people here are teh awesome :D

Oh, well there was one other thing - she's asked me to follow amps +4 +8 pmps readings instead of amps +3 +6 +9 pmps
I'd love to do both to satisfy both fdmb AND the vet, but I just can't prick his ear that much that consistently. I hope you guys don't mind if I go with the +4 +8 readings for now. Please don't spurn me!

Thanks for all the help you guys :)
Sarah.
 
Re: D'oh. wrong strips. Simba AMPS 392, +5 391, +8 463, PMPS

If you can follow the videos posted on the stickies on this site, you'll learn how to poke your cat's ear without any pain at all. He may be bothered by your holding him still for a few seconds but at this point, my cat doesn't even flinch when I draw blood from his ear. If you can take the time to do a full curve and test every few hours across the full 12-hour cycle, you are doing your cat a great service in finding out whether your current insulin dose is adequate. Best of luck.
 
Re: D'oh. wrong strips. Simba AMPS 392, +5 391, +8 463, PMPS

yes, I have a curve scheduled for sunday. (it's in his ss if you want to take a look in sig)
I have gotten much better at ear pricking, took a few tries to get it right, but he's fine now. I just don't want him to have to go through that 14 times a day to satisfy both sides.
 
Re: D'oh. wrong strips. Simba AMPS 392, +5 391, +8 463, PMPS

Sarah & Simba said:
Oh, well there was one other thing - she's asked me to follow amps +4 +8 pmps readings instead of amps +3 +6 +9 pmps
I'd love to do both to satisfy both fdmb AND the vet, but I just can't prick his ear that much that consistently. I hope you guys don't mind if I go with the +4 +8 readings for now. Please don't spurn me!
Click to expand...

It's actually good to stagger when you test so you can fill in the blank spots on your SS. FWIW, I'm a big fan of a +2. It can tell you where the cycle is heading. (Ordinarily, your +2 is around the same as your pre-shot value. If it's a lot lower, you know you're looking at an active cycle.) Likewise, a late test at +10 or +11, can tell you if your pre-shot is a dropping value. A lot of us will get a 2-hour curve so we test every 2 hours vs. a mini-curve, which is every 3-hours. When you test is up to you. We'll just give you a nudge if you're not testing!
 
Re: Simba PMPS 446, +4 272

You guys aren't going to BELIEVE what I just found in the back of the cuppord!!!

...

Hills Science Diet, 22, 26 and 29 carb cans of food. lol. about six 22's, two 26's and one 29. Woot!
 
Re: Simba PMPS 446, +4 272

That's a nice drop for the +2, Simba is starting to respond.

I just saw your post in Tess's condo, thanks. Tess likes to dive and as someone else said we may not have research to prove it, but from experience we know that HC and MC do bring them up and keep them there longer than just the syrup of honey . Speaking of which sorry I flaked on Simba's name that first night, I just glanced at the subject and saw"Honey." :roll: :lol: :lol: :lol: Actually, i was up then because Tess had just thrown a 35 and I was monitoring her. She seems to have developed a taste for late night diving again. Oops, time to test again.
 
Hey no worries, I put 'honey' where you'd expect to see name! I think it's.. uhm.. my 3rd night on the boards? lol. I'm still feeling my way around..

..plus which I'm not generally a 'social' person - meaning I have trouble understanding/identifying/following social convention, 'fitting in' & picking up on the bind-people-together things everyone else seems to inherently 'get'. I never meant to come across as thinking HC didn't effect things. Obviously from all board member's anecdotal evidence, it does! My vet is just wanting something more empirical, and I'd love to be able to show her that. I hope no one was offended :sad:

Speaking of hoping I don't offend: I haven't had a chance to look at other's posts much. Once I get it together here I'll be freed up to browse :) I've slept 7 hours since Tuesday; Crying at the drop of a hat. Goodness.

Anyway... no worries about the name! he's a total honey. Well, except when he's viciously stalking ankles. He hasn't done that in a long time though, poor guy.

Imma go curl up with him and doze till dose time.

Sarah.
 
Hi Sarah,

Welcome to LL! Don't feel bad about not buying the wrong strips for ketone strips. Believe me we've all had our blunders. I don't know were you got them or if there is a walmart near by, but I found they were more inexpensive there.

I have to ditto Sienne's advise on prevention on ketones. Why not. At work I say something simular when I see people do stupid things like pick up and move heavy furniture by themselves when other people are around that could help. I say is uconn going to be around when you are out with a back problem and are they really going to care. It comes down to you have to take care of your cat the best way you know how.

Keep reading and ask any questions. I know it is overwhelming at first and the caring people here will do their best to help you out.

Again welcome!

jan and sara
 
Thanks Jan for your warm welcome :)
I picked up the ketostix from shopper's drug mart. was a bit of a trek, but well worth the trip! I hope to get a sample from him within the hour. *crosses fingers*!
Best,
Sarah.
 
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