Raymond James, AMPS, 185, + 7, 170

Lee cuzz

Member Since 2020
Ok, can someone give me dosing advice on Raymond James whose BG is decreasing. Has been high for 14 months.
Still don't know how much to shoot when the preshot, BG is low. Gone for 10 hours a day. I'm up and down with the insulin, not helping.!!!
Still can't regulate him, my fault...
How may units for how many cycles? Acro, Levemir, cabergoline, 60 mcg X1.
Thanks....
Very difficult....and I don't know..
Yinz are all we got...
 
First of all, changing your dosing every cycle is making it near impossible to figure out how to dose him. I frankly have no idea what size the dose thinks it is because you've been changing doses every cycle. We base dose changes on the nadirs, or low points, not the pretest values. Shooting lower number tends to give a lot flatter cycles. You will eventually have to learn to give the full dose when he's in the blues. And you definitely should be shooting full dose in yellows now.

How about this as a strategy? Change his dose to 50 units and try holding it there for at least 3-4 days. This may be too low a dose, or not? But it'll let us get the depot build to a dose we know. Then have a better idea where to go from there. In those 3-4 day, please try to get as many mid cycle tests as you can, including the PM cycles. Hopefully you'll be able to do that this weekend. As well, make sure you test often for ketones.
 
I’m so happy that Wendy came along today. I looked at RJ’s spreadsheet earlier today and saw doses all over the place and I wasn’t really sure what to say. I know it’s scary, and your situation of being gone 10 hours a day makes it extra challenging. I am just commenting here because I fully support you and Raymond James.
 
Levemir is a depot insulin. This means that some of it gets stored in the subcutaneous fat and gets slowly released into the bloodstream. Insulin is not a drug, it's a hormone, and its action happens in waves. If you change the dose all the time, the depot is uneven and you don't know how Raymond James is doing on the dose. That's why holding the dose for 7 days (if you are following SLGS) or 3-5 days (if you are following TR) would be helpful rather than changing it every time you see a number that's lower than what you are used to.

From the What is the Insulin Depot sticky at the top of the forum regarding Levemir:

Have you ever wondered why, when you are giving the same amount of insulin every time, the response is different in each cycle? Sometimes the numbers go up for the whole cycle, sometimes they go down, sometimes they stay flat, and sometimes they actually “curve.” The answer often lies in the depot. Did you skip a shot or give a partial shot at some time in the past few days? That can result in higher numbers for several days as the depot replenishes some of its lost stores. Did you increase the dose? This can result in a change in the size of the depot and can lead to a temporary adjustment in the amount of insulin available for use. Did you decrease the dose recently? A dose reduction will usually result in a need for less stored insulin. The excess may be released into the bloodstream faster than usual, especially if several dose reductions are done back-to-back.

Absorption
Gradel and colleagues (2018) note that absorption can be affected by the composition of the tissue layers, the physical-chemical composition of the insulin along with the type of insulin, the concentration and volume (i.e., dose) of the insulin, and insulin injection technique and site. Not all of these factors are easily controlled which is why every insulin dose may not produce identical results. To further add to the challenge, it is difficult to estimate how long it takes both for the “depot” to form at the outset but also how long it will take for a dose change to stabilize.

Practical experience on FDMB shows that as a generalization, the depot can affect up to 6 cycles. The time tends to be less when a cat is on a smaller dose, and more when a cat is on a larger dose. Other factors can apply as well, but using the generalization of 6 cycles is a good starting point until you have learned your particular cat's patterns.

Now you are probably asking "How on earth can I use this information to understand my cat?"

Try to look at your spreadsheet not in 12-hour cycles, but in “waves” of action over a period of several days. Look for overall trends more than individual numbers. If something jumps out and doesn’t seem to make sense, go back 2-3 days and think about any changes that might have occurred in insulin, timing, exercise, health, food, etc. If the big picture is making sense but you see one cycle that doesn’t fit, then keep that 20-50% variation in mind and just wait it out.
 
Wendy's suggestion is a good one, I too would like to see if you can maintain the same dose both am and pm cycles for 3-4 days, to let the depot settle; changing things up too frequently makes it difficult to know what dose may or may not be working.

Here is your last post for continuity - ? - Raymond James 2/8 AMPS, 97 | Feline Diabetes Message Board - FDMB

It helps to include the last post so others can quickly catch up on the history. On that note: the only other suggestion I have is perhaps try posting every day so we can see how the cycles are going as you are gathering data, and we can offer help and comments and answer any questions you may have along the way :)
 
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First of all, changing your dosing every cycle is making it near impossible to figure out how to dose him. I frankly have no idea what size the dose thinks it is because you've been changing doses every cycle. We base dose changes on the nadirs, or low points, not the pretest values. Shooting lower number tends to give a lot flatter cycles. You will eventually have to learn to give the full dose when he's in the blues. And you definitely should be shooting full dose in yellows now.

How about this as a strategy? Change his dose to 50 units and try holding it there for at least 3-4 days. This may be too low a dose, or not? But it'll let us get the depot build to a dose we know. Then have a better idea where to go from there. In those 3-4 day, please try to get as many mid cycle tests as you can, including the PM cycles. Hopefully you'll be able to do that this weekend. As well, make sure you test often for ketones.
Ok, thanks. Keytones are 0.0 as of 2-9.
 
I’m so happy that Wendy came along today. I looked at RJ’s spreadsheet earlier today and saw doses all over the place and I wasn’t really sure what to say. I know it’s scary, and your situation of being gone 10 hours a day makes it extra challenging. I am just commenting here because I fully support you and Raymond James.
Thanks for understanding. I'm here cause I don't know, I appreciate your compassion.
 
Wendy's suggestion is a good one, I too would like to see if you can maintain the same dose both am and pm cycles for 3-4 days, to let the depot settle; changing things up too frequently makes it difficult to know what dose may or may not be working.

Here is your last post for continuity - ? - Raymond James 2/8 AMPS, 97 | Feline Diabetes Message Board - FDMB

It helps to include the last post so others can quickly catch up on the history. On that note: the only other suggestion I have is perhaps try posting every day so we can see how the cycles are going as you are gathering data, and we can offer help and comments and answer any questions you may have along the way :)
I know I was changing the dose. He's low and I don't want hypo. Trying to jump through all the hoops. Not on computer every day. I will figure something out. Thanks...
 
I’m so happy that Wendy came along today. I looked at RJ’s spreadsheet earlier today and saw doses all over the place and I wasn’t really sure what to say. I know it’s scary, and your situation of being gone 10 hours a day makes it extra challenging. I am just commenting here because I fully support you and Raymond James.
Thank you, You're so sweet. Trying to get it right...
 
I can appreciate that, it wasn't a criticism, I know you are doing the best you can :)

When you see pinks consistently and all of a sudden you are seeing blues, it can make you re-think what is happening, but so far he's not been too low (just lower than you are used to). All I can suggest is what I mentioned previously. With Levemir, you may often find that they will nadir later in the cycle, so if you are able to gather some more data over the weekend to see how things are going, that will give you more confidence on days when you aren't able to be home to test. It takes time (and data) to figure out how the insulin is working for your cat. Let us know how we can help, we'll be here if you need us.
 
Levemir is a depot insulin. This means that some of it gets stored in the subcutaneous fat and gets slowly released into the bloodstream. Insulin is not a drug, it's a hormone, and its action happens in waves. If you change the dose all the time, the depot is uneven and you don't know how Raymond James is doing on the dose. That's why holding the dose for 7 days (if you are following SLGS) or 3-5 days (if you are following TR) would be helpful rather than changing it every time you see a number that's lower than what you are used to.

From the What is the Insulin Depot sticky at the top of the forum regarding Levemir:

Have you ever wondered why, when you are giving the same amount of insulin every time, the response is different in each cycle? Sometimes the numbers go up for the whole cycle, sometimes they go down, sometimes they stay flat, and sometimes they actually “curve.” The answer often lies in the depot. Did you skip a shot or give a partial shot at some time in the past few days? That can result in higher numbers for several days as the depot replenishes some of its lost stores. Did you increase the dose? This can result in a change in the size of the depot and can lead to a temporary adjustment in the amount of insulin available for use. Did you decrease the dose recently? A dose reduction will usually result in a need for less stored insulin. The excess may be released into the bloodstream faster than usual, especially if several dose reductions are done back-to-back.

Absorption
Gradel and colleagues (2018) note that absorption can be affected by the composition of the tissue layers, the physical-chemical composition of the insulin along with the type of insulin, the concentration and volume (i.e., dose) of the insulin, and insulin injection technique and site. Not all of these factors are easily controlled which is why every insulin dose may not produce identical results. To further add to the challenge, it is difficult to estimate how long it takes both for the “depot” to form at the outset but also how long it will take for a dose change to stabilize.

Practical experience on FDMB shows that as a generalization, the depot can affect up to 6 cycles. The time tends to be less when a cat is on a smaller dose, and more when a cat is on a larger dose. Other factors can apply as well, but using the generalization of 6 cycles is a good starting point until you have learned your particular cat's patterns.

Now you are probably asking "How on earth can I use this information to understand my cat?"

Try to look at your spreadsheet not in 12-hour cycles, but in “waves” of action over a period of several days. Look for overall trends more than individual numbers. If something jumps out and doesn’t seem to make sense, go back 2-3 days and think about any changes that might have occurred in insulin, timing, exercise, health, food, etc. If the big picture is making sense but you see one cycle that doesn’t fit, then keep that 20-50% variation in mind and just wait it out.
Ok, so I hold the dose for 6 cycles even though the current and previous cycles
are low??? a lot to absorb
 
I can appreciate that, it wasn't a criticism, I know you are doing the best you can :)

When you see pinks consistently and all of a sudden you are seeing blues, it can make you re-think what is happening, but so far he's not been too low (just lower than you are used to). All I can suggest is what I mentioned previously. With Levemir, you may often find that they will nadir later in the cycle, so if you are able to gather some more data over the weekend to see how things are going, that will give you more confidence on days when you aren't able to be home to test. It takes time (and data) to figure out how the insulin is working for your cat. Let us know how we can help, we'll be here if you need us.
Thank you.. Trying so hard it hurts...
 
As an example of later nadirs, Neko often nadired right at preshot times on Levemir. I had no problem shooting in the 50's, cause I knew her meal would bump her up around 30 points, and she didn't onset for another 5 hours, so her numbers would keep going up until then. It helps to remember that the number you are shooting at preshot time is not the number it'll be when the insulin starts to work (onset). And yes, I freaked out the first few times I shot blues (she bounced right away in the beginning) and then the greens (similar bouncing).

Once you are home and get the opportunity to shoot and monitor, you'll gather some great data on how Raymond James would handle lower numbers. For what it's worth, I've seen someone shoot greens on higher doses of Levemir before. But with the appropriate data and ability to monitor.
 
As an example of later nadirs, Neko often nadired right at preshot times on Levemir. I had no problem shooting in the 50's, cause I knew her meal would bump her up around 30 points, and she didn't onset for another 5 hours, so her numbers would keep going up until then. It helps to remember that the number you are shooting at preshot time is not the number it'll be when the insulin starts to work (onset). And yes, I freaked out the first few times I shot blues (she bounced right away in the beginning) and then the greens (similar bouncing).

Once you are home and get the opportunity to shoot and monitor, you'll gather some great data on how Raymond James would handle lower numbers. For what it's worth, I've seen someone shoot greens on higher doses of Levemir before. But with the appropriate data and ability to monitor.
Thank you for your knowledge. I will shoot 50 units for 3 days and see what happens...
 
Thank you for your knowledge. I will shoot 50 units for 3 days and see what happens...
Of course if he drops to below 50 you would reduce. Well, I am saying 50 because that’s the reduction point for people following Tight Regulation. I don’t know if that is what you are following, but holding for six cycles unless a reduction point is reached would be TR. Now, having said that, what is your reduction point? Many times with cats on Cabergoline and on a high dose a somewhat higher reduction point is recommended. For example, @Max & Lori uses a reduction point of 70 with her kitty Max. Max is an acro cat who is not on Cabergoline but he did have stereotactic radiation therapy- so as a safety measure a higher reduction point was selected. You may want to do this with Raymond James.
 
The suggestion of 70 for an acrocat after treatment (cabergoline or SRT), is one that only works for members who are otherwise following TR. Lee is not always able to get a second test each and every cycle, so must follow SLGS for safety. In that case, Raymond James' reduction point is 90.

My suggestion to hold for six cycles is to allow the depot to stabilize, and doesn't matter which dosing method is being followed. There has been too many recent dose changes, so we need to let the depot stabilize to see where to go next with the dose.
 
The suggestion of 70 for an acrocat after treatment (cabergoline or SRT), is one that only works for members who are otherwise following TR. Lee is not always able to get a second test each and every cycle, so must follow SLGS for safety. In that case, Raymond James' reduction point is 90.

My suggestion to hold for six cycles is to allow the depot to stabilize, and doesn't matter which dosing method is being followed. There has been too many recent dose changes, so we need to let the depot stabilize to see where to go next with the dose.
Good. That clears it up. Thanks.
 
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