Raw food

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Jana & Tuxedo

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I have read over the info on raw food and want to put Tuxedo on it. My vet is keen to try and suggested Natures Varient Instinct - I have ordered some of the chicken. In reading through the ingredients, there are some fruits mixed in and butternut squash. I suspect the amounts are very small, as the majority of the food is meat. Anyone currently using the Natures Variety? I eventually would like to make my own, but want to try this first to see if he will do ok on it before I get equipment to make it myself.
 
I have used it before I started making my own. I didn't notice any difference in Oscar's glucose levels while feeding it.
 
Jana & Tuxedo said:
I have read over the info on raw food and want to put Tuxedo on it. My vet is keen to try and suggested Natures Varient Instinct - I have ordered some of the chicken. In reading through the ingredients, there are some fruits mixed in and butternut squash. I suspect the amounts are very small, as the majority of the food is meat. Anyone currently using the Natures Variety? I eventually would like to make my own, but want to try this first to see if he will do ok on it before I get equipment to make it myself.
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Some pet stores sell trial sized bags of the Nature's Variety frozen chicken ane beef formulas. Just an FYI :smile: Here's a current coupon for a free trial sized bag with any store purchase of $5 or more: http://hosting.bronto.com/14321/public/ ... coupon.png You can buy treats, toys, whatever at the pet store and get a free trial bag of raw :smile:

I feed NV raw to my cats, both civies. One will only eat the organic chicken formula. The other will only eat beef :roll: NV is a good brand of raw. Many commerical raw foods contain fruits and veggies but they're really only a small portion of the food. If you don't want to feed any fruit or veggie, there are some brands that are nothign but meat and organs and maybe some added vitamins/minerals. Feline Future and Rad Cat Raw are two brands. And there's always making your own raw or using a pre-mix with raw meat.
 
Thanks Kimmee - yes I know about Buddies, but my vet wanted me to use the NV because it has been through very strict purification process - more so than Buddies raw. Because of Tux's age (15) he wants me to be cautious with the raw. So I am able to order the food (at cost yay) through my work. Should get it next week.
As for the ketones - I cannot see how I am going to be able to catch urine everyday - I have collected 2 samples in the last week - both samples had no ketones. I never see him go to the litterbox...he does it in private. But I can use the special litter so that I can check - maybe once or twice a week? Would that be enough? We are also checking his USG - it is quite low, so worried about his kidneys.
He seems a little better tonight - ate better - I actually gave him a can of the PVD DM diet and he liked it. I may use that until the NV arrives.
The biggest problem I have right now is that he is a terrible patient...he is starting to HATE me!!! I am doing ear pricks, insulin jabs, oral meds, SQ fluids - taking him to the vet, even stepped on his poor tail today. Ugh. Poor cat. He just wants me to leave him alone. I am giving him pets and treats as much as he will let me, but he is a very grouchy cat right now. :shock:
 
It sounds like you are learning fast how to best help your friend

As for the behaviour you are seeing....It has been seen here that a cat can sort of 'sense' when it is getting too much insulin and starts to really put up a fuss about their shots. Really, I know that sounds a bit out there- but it has been seen often over my years here. A cat starts to fight back at shot time, will not hold still....gets aggressive with its owner
I just mention this in the hope this is what you are experiencing and reduced dose will help this.
I do wonder if he is recieving too much insulin as I mentioned in another post to you. Those swings just feel so terribly awful from lower to higher and the duration of lower levels you are seeing suggests perhaps he is dropping much lower at some point. i aso wonder if there is not an active pancreas at work sometimes as well.

As for ketone testing. I would try every day.
I Know it makes terrible litter box lurkers of all of us :roll: .... but they can become life threatening so quickly and a kitty who is struggling to eat enough, combined with not feeling well and as yet unregulated, worries me.
The sub qs will be good to help wash them away should they show up, but I am wondering why you are giving them everyday? Is there another medical issue I missed?

I am happy to see a spread sheet, but it is still private and we can't see it. If you would like us to see it as well, you simply need to make the spreadsheet public.
Afraid I am not much help there....computer techy stuff is just not my forte.

Please let us know how you guys are doing.
When you make the switch to lower carb food, raw for example, it will lessen the need for insulin even more and I really encourage you to make the switch when you can be home to monitor and catch a bunch of spotchecks that day.
My cat went from 4 units of caninsulin one day, made the diet change to wet canned food, and then Abby needed no insulin... in only 7 days.
We had a couple of scary nail biting hypo moments while we were adjusting her dose down, but I say this to illustrate how much diet change alone can effect the levels and to please be watchful.

Kimmee
 
I am giving the SQs every day because we are concerned about kidney function. His USG is low - blood work showed small elevation in BUN and just based on how he is feeling too.
I agree that I think he needs less insulin - I only gave him 1/2 dose yesterday. I am looking into switching insulin. And it may be that he won't need any at all.
As for the spreadsheet....I can't figure it out. I thought I had it, but then I couldn't enter any numbers into it. I've spent too much time on it anyhow. Just hopeless with computer stuff.
I will try with the ketone tests...
It's not the insulin shots that he doesn't like. It's the ear pokes...he started out really good about them. But now when I come near, he gets so mad. And if I touch his ear, he freaks. I do it anyhow, and just let him complain, but it's a bit dicey. He bites, but not hard.
Thanks for your help, really appreciate it!!
Jana
 
awww poor guy. What size lancets are you using?

Are you able to hold the ear for a few seconds following the reading to help prevent bruising?
I know it can be hard when they are working agianst you.

Paws are crossed it will be a fleeting thing also ( anti jinx :) )
 
Me again :)

A couple of questions and thoughts?

When was the USG done? before or after the insulin and sub qs?
Sub q and the Pu/PD of diabetes can lower that USG as well.
Do you have the latest level tested for the USG available? Would you mind posting it and perhaps the blood work results as well?


My concern is kitty should be getting better with the levels you are seeing and with the insulin working at this point. it just doesn't sound like that and I wonder if an underlying illness is causing the blood glucose levels to flare up as the body is stressed, and that is what was diagnosed as diabetes to begin with?

Has your baby ever been tested for Hyper Thyroid?

I am about to head out but will check back in a while and have also asked some peeps to check in as well and offer what they can.
Kimmee
 
We did a full panel on Feb 25 - his USG was 1.019. This was prior to any medications or fluids. Glucose in the urine was >56. His blood chemistry showed glucose: 22 BUN 12.8 (5-12.5 are normal range)
The notes from the Lab say: Stress lymphopenia - significant hyperglycemia present, with glycosuria - supports DM. Check fructosamine also, low SG related to DM or renal. The fructosamine was only 422 which the lab said indicated that it is a recent onset of DM. Advised rechecking the fructosamine again in 2 weeks (which we tried to do, but could not collect a sample!!) We did check his thyroid, I don't have the number, but it was within normal levels.
Initially when put onto insulin, he seemed to be doing pretty well. He was still eating well and was a little more active. 3 days after starting insulin (Caninsulin at 1.5 units SID) we checked him 4 hours after shot and he was 5.4 - responding well. I then started home-testing and did a curve on March 6 (still on 1.5u SID)= 15.3 AMPS, then 5.7, 6.4, 8.6, 12.1. Vet decided to change to 1u BID. Then I had 10.7 AMPS, 3.7, 8.6 PMPS, then 4.2 on the 2nd day at BID. Vet said that looked good, so continue at 1u BID. Now just in the last few days, my AMPS numbers are still low, so I am skipping the shot. Or yesterday I only gave .5u. This morning it was 8.4 so I didn't give any. The highest he is going is 10-12. He isn't eating much today, and is pretty lethargic. Vet gave him Convenia injection last Thursday in case there is an underlying infection of sorts. He also had me start him on Thera-K potassium supplement, as we are concerned about his kidney. We did another urinalysis on Friday and his USG was still low - 1.018 I think (now on fluids and insulin). There is no vomiting.
Bottom line is we need to do more diagnostics: blood work, etc. But he won't cooperate. He is impossible. I'm feeling very concerned.
 
Thank you so much for all that. You guys are being really thorough and it must just be so hard to watch him being so unwell. ((hugs))

It is so fantastic you have been able to test and curve at homeand share results that way with your vet so early on in this.
I can't imagine what this all may have looked like without that.

In terms of the diabetes itself, separate from the rest... glad you are holding back the insulin and seeing such positive results.
I would simply encourage you to keep doing what you are doing and offer little bits of food, more often as you are able so as not to overwhelm the pancreas as it is trying to go off of insulin ( antijinx again )
Small low carb ,meals 4-5 times a day can really make a difference during the transition to needing and not needing insulin.

The rest of it sounds like you and your vet are well on top of. It is such a gray cloud over everything when our furries are sick.

The vet clinic you work at looks amazing by the way.
A little too far out of my way with a screaming howling cat ( Flame does NOT like car rides ) but I will let folks know about it who are out that way.

Have you discussed a possible ultra sound to see about inflamation et al?
I am hoping Jess and Jojo will pop in. Both are longtimers on the board as well as working in emergency veterinary hospitals.
They have seen a lot of the health complications that diabetes can be a part of.

Can you change the first subject heading of this post to something like- 'transient diabetes, more going on- test results'
to draw attention of those people.

Sometimes a good brainstorming session can help narrow ideas down.
 
Transiet DM? More going on? Still not well

No insulin for more than 24 hrs - just did a check and he is 6.4. I got him to eat some Fancy Feast today. He ate some turkey breast too. Had to hand feed him, but he ate! He is still very grouchy. He just wants to be left alone in his bed. I am trying to do his SQ fluids now, but he is extremely grumpy. My vet wants him to come in tomorrow and we will likely have to sedate him and do some more bloodwork, xrays, etc. Maybe an ultrasound would help, but he would have to be sedated for that too. I hate to give him any sedatives, but there really is no other way. I don't want anyone getting bitten. So very worried about him.
 
It's not looking good...vet really does not know what is wrong. We may do an ultrasound on Monday - he wants me to try just SQ fluids and try to get him to eat what ever he will eat. We started him on Metronidazole as he had some soft stool with a little blood in it. Maybe it's digestive?? He just ate some food for me - I took the day off as I am too distracted and emotional to work. It is dreadful to see him look so bad, and feel so miserable. The concern with doing the ultrasound is we will have to put him under GA to do it - and that is risky for sure. But I think I need to know what is going on. He did palpate him and did not feel any masses. He is concerned it is some kind of cancer - pancreas?? Anyhow, I will keep posting as it helps me to process all of this, and the possibility that I may lose him soon.
 
Oh this is too sad.
Did the vet suggest an appetite stimulant?

how is your boy eating?
I am assuming levels are still in normal range so no insulin?

I am sending lots of hopeful healing energy to him.
 
Observation... there is quite a bit of contraversy about the use of convenia in cats and its possible side effects.
Did your cat seem better before the shot?
If so, it may be important to mention it to your vet... Here is some info from Dr. Lisa who has been a long time board member and advocate for kitties everywhere.

here is a link to a conversation about it on the old board....
http://www.felinediabetes.com/phorum5/r ... 168,page=1

and here is Dr. Lisa's article about this... not to be alarming, but I know you are going through every thought to try and find what could be wrong right now..
http://www.catinfo.org/?link=convenia
 
Interesting about the Convenia - I don't think that is causing his misery because he was already like this before he got it.
He is eating. I am offering him a selection of tempting things. He seems a bit better. I gave him a sponge bath - he liked that. His purr is working anyhow.
Lots of love and care and hope. Thanks!
 
Hi Jana:

I've been reading through your posts - sounds like you're have a pretty rough time with it as well as your boy Tuxedo. Trying to get them regulated is really tough sometimes especially if there is something else going on in their little bodies. Too bad they can't tell us, isn't it - although they do try their best to tell us sometimes.

I know nothing about Caninsulin - have never used it on Dude - but have used a lot of the other insulins over the past 7 years on him. And most of the time it's been found that one shot a day doesn't work with the kitties - not enough duration. Most give the insulins at least every twelve hours.

When we took the dry food away from Dude and put him on canned low-carb, his glucose numbers went down over 100 points immediately. Then as time went on, we transferred him over to Nature's Variety which he (and our other kitty) ate for a long time. We now make our own but only because we can't buy NV right here in our small town and must drive two hours round trip to get it. But if/when we travel, I always get some to take with me - usually the freeze-dried. Dude and Mittsi liked it and did very well on it.

I wish I could offer you some good, substantial advice and help you, but I have none for your boy. I know if Dude's numbers are low and he doesn't need insulin, he's at my feet yowling for food but doesn't want me to test him - I still do because no test - no insulin. Could it be that Tuxedo's ears are a little sore at this point - do you hold onto them for a few seconds after getting the blood - that keeps them from bruising and becoming sore.

Hopefully your vet will find whatever the problem is and be able to help you with solutions - keep posting here and others will see your post and have advice for you.

I wish I could offer more than just support but you certainly have that and the hope that it all settles down for you and your Tuxedo boy soon - I'll bet he's gorgeously handsome. :)

Emmy & Dude (& Mittsi too)
 
Tux is still not eating well - I've managed to hand feed him some different canned foods - A/D, Fancy Feast etc - whatever he will eat. Doing SQ fluids BID. We are doing an ultrasound on Monday. This sure is hard. I've had him since a kitten, and he is such a huge presence in our home. We are all extremely attached. I just need to know what is going on. Hopefully the ultrasound will help. Meanwhile I keep trying to get him to eat. Thanks for your kind words.
I don't know how to rename my post. And I can't figure out how to put his photo on...hopeless with computers. But he does have his own facebook page - LOL! If you want to see how handsome he is...

http://www.facebook.com/login/setashome ... 7265320648
 
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