Ragnar PMPS 145; +7 61, +8 68 (+6 74 yesterday) OK now

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Shirley and Ragnar

Shirley and Ragnar

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Adding the new stuff before the old:

Down to 61 today at +7, up a little to 68 +8. Hastily concocted excuse for a spreadsheet at http://valkyriepub.tripod.com/spreadsheet.pdf. (If anyone needs it in jpg, I can do it.)

Dr. Jen said to shoot a "fat 1u" tonight at 12:30. I am scared! But I trust her - she doesn't want to go way down because she doesn't want to "bounce him up and down."

But these numbers are weird. Something is happening; he may be making his own insulin again. When he started at 1.5u, he may not have filled his shed yet. But he was thriving at 1.5u for a week, even when is was given at +11 to work back to civilized hours. Today he shows some mild hypo symptoms - a bit lethargic, poor appetite. (He was eating well when we got the 74 yesterday.)

Now, this is the kind of thing I joined the Lantus forum for. I've got numbers (even if the form isn't ideal - I made the spreadsheet, which starts when he went up to 1.5u, in 20 minutes after his 8:30 test). Need support. I certainly plan to do as Dr. told me, but oh boy am I scared.

Earlier post:
Last night's preshot at +11.5 was 143 (up from 74 at +6). It was 1 AM; when I'd shot at 193 he went up to 228 at +2 before starting down, so I figured it was OK. I wasn't totally comfortable shooting that much that low, though - I've seen lower preshot numbers here, but those people might have been shooting microdoses, not 1.5u.

Dr. Jen said today that it was OK - he had a skinny 1.5u in a Hocks syringe at 12:30 PM, and I will test him at +7 today. He might be making more of his own insulin already, so we will watch that boy as closely as we can. I'm not posting his numbers for +4 and +5 from his first day or two on 1.5; they are unreasonably high and he was probably still filling his shed.

No more hiding - at least none that can't be overcome by a bruised catnip leaf! Sigh (a Thank Heaven sigh). He's back to lap-sitting, too. The syringes from Hocks are even better than BD; fine, sharp, and shorter needles; he didn't seem to feel this shot at all.

I can't use the Google spreadsheet, nohow, because it won't work with my browser, IE7 is no longer available, and my OS won't support IE8. Upgrading that browser would require a new OS, which would probably require a new computer, and certainly new versions of Finale (the full version; I use it professionally), Adobe Acrobat (full version), Microsoft Office (full, not Small Business), Sony Sound Forge (use professionally) and others - and my photo software probably wouldn't work either, including my Canon Utilities. That's too much (at least $2-3K for the software alone) to get a "free" spreadsheet!

I *can* put it into a Word table (simpler than using Excel), turn that into PDF, and FTP it to my web space. If anyone has problems with Acrobat Reader, I can turn the PDF into a JPG ("photo"). Linking it to my signature would be no problem. Would this work for everone else if I do it? (My reporting will probably be spotty, though, because I have more to do than I have time to do, extremely so; and when I have a minute, Himself would rather have me spend with with him than on the rival laptop. I'm using his rival right now because he's asleep on my bed.)

Blessings!

Shirley and Sleepyhead
 
Re: Ragnar PMPS 143; shot 1.5u

Hi Shirley,

I'm glad you finally got your syringes from Hocks and that they are working out well. What is the name brand? I have short needle also and I'll never go back. Love them, and I'm glad Ragnor does too. I bet maybe the hiding problem was a lot to do with the needle that you had. Also if you [maybe you know this already] inject it with the beveled side up it slides in even easier. Just look in a well lit area and you can see it.

My ss is in google docs and someone had to do it for me. I don't know how these other ways would work out, someone else could tell you more than me. But it would be great if you could get one going. If you want help with questions about doseage etc, its a lot easier to open a ss. At a glance they can tell what story the #'s are telling you. Also you can put notes on the side that might be pertinent to the situation.

I love mine, would'nt be without it. Good luck getting something going. Oh and one thing. I think all information is usefull. Even if it was before Ragnors shed was full. Its always best to put it all in. It might mean something, you never know.

Good luck with everything. Glad Ragnor is back to being a lap cat. cat_pet_icon

jan and sara
 
Re: Ragnar PMPS 143; shot 1.5u

Have you tried to use Mozilla Firefox as your browser? It's a free download so no cost worries. I use it instead of IE (7 or 8 or whatever number.) Many people here use it and it works fine with Google spreadsheets and documents, etc. I like it better than IE, because it's rarely buggy.
 
Re: Ragnar PMPS 143; shot 1.5u

I was just going to suggest Firefox, too. It's a terrific browser and works with all operating systems. In fact, at NYU they made the faculty switch to it because it is so secure. Just go to the Firefox website and download it. Another good, secure, browser that works with all operating systems is Opera. IE has always had numerous bugs and security problems. As we like to say: "Fugeddaboutit"

Ella & Stu
 
Re: Ragnar PMPS 143; shot 1.5u

jan and sara said:
Hi Shirley,

I'm glad you finally got your syringes from Hocks and that they are working out well. What is the name brand? I have short needle also and I'll never go back. Love them, and I'm glad Ragnor does too. I bet maybe the hiding problem was a lot to do with the needle that you had. Also if you [maybe you know this already] inject it with the needle side up it slides in even better. Just look in a well lit area and you can see it.

My ss is in google docs and someone had to do it for me. I don't know how these other ways would work out, someone else could tell you more than me. But it would be great if you could get one going. If you want help with questions about doseage etc, its a lot easier to open a ss. At a glance they can tell what story the #'s are telling you. Also you can put notes on the side that might be pertinent to the situation.

I love mine, would'nt be without it. Good luck getting something going. Oh and one thing. I think all information is usefull. Even if it was before Ragnors shed was full. Its always best to put it all in. It might mean something, you never know.

Good luck with everything. Glad Ragnor is back to being a lap cat. cat_pet_icon

jan and sara
Click to expand...
I finally concocted a spreadsheet in Word, saved it as pdf, and FTPd it to http://valkyriepub.tripod.com/spreadsheet.pdf. If anyone doesn't have Acrobat Reader and wants to see it, I can save the pdf as a jpg (photo).

This is probably not a typical spreadsheet, but the data is there. I did it since his last test, only 25 minutes ago, and started it when he went up to 1.5u; the numbers on 1.0 were mostly in the 400s, but most of all, I couldn't find them just now and want to get this up! At least it will give you some idea, and I will learn to make a more proper spreadsheet when it's not Panic Time. nailbite_smile

I'll check on the name brand also when it's not Panic Time. He's going down, down, down. Well, holding steady, rose a little between +7 and +8 today, but only 7 points.

The spreadsheet (such as it is) is based on the numbers stored in the meter. Where there's a discrepancy of a point or two, I trust the meter rather than my memory! (Especially on this little sleep!)

Blessings!
 
Re: Ragnar PMPS 143; shot 1.5u

CD and BigMac said:
Have you tried to use Mozilla Firefox as your browser? It's a free download so no cost worries. I use it instead of IE (7 or 8 or whatever number.) Many people here use it and it works fine with Google spreadsheets and documents, etc. I like it better than IE, because it's rarely buggy.
Click to expand...
I could get it just for this purpose as long as I can keep IE6+ too. Firefox won't play MIDI files (or rather, send them to Windows Media Player), for one thing - I learned that when I asked in the Tech forum if people could hear the music on my web page. Those with Firefox couldn't.

Alternately, I can probably fine-tune the Word table and do it that way; if anyone needs jpg rather than pdf, it's no problem.

Blessings!
 
Re: Ragnar PMPS 145; +7 61, +8 68 (+6 74 yesterday)

Help! Anybody there?? I am SO scared to shoot a fat 1u just 2 hours from now. He's still acting as if it's low, though his appetite is just a wee bit better (he actually ATE something). I asked Dr. if I should test before shooting and not shoot if below a certain number (such as 100) but she said not to test, just shoot, but for once I am afraid to obey her.

He sleeps beside me, but if I'm asleep I won't know what is happening. If he didn't wake up, I don't think I'd even bother treating my own heart problem. It would be too broken to beat.

I hope this bumps the message up and someone replies. It's Panic Time.

Blessings! nailbite_smile

Shirley
 
Re: Ragnar PMPS 145; +7 61, +8 68 (+6 74 yesterday)

If I'm reading correctly, it looks like he responded well to 1.5U, so you shouldn't be terribly concerned about a fat 1U. But if it makes you feel better (particularly at night), shoot less, like 0.5U.
 
Re: Ragnar PMPS 145; +7 61, +8 68 (+6 74 yesterday) HELP!

A lot can happen in an hour. You need to decide if you are going to test or not. I'm not comfortable suggesting a course of action without a pre-shot test. It's up to you whether to reduce the dose and not test. I also can't make a recommendation without having data in front of me. Despite several of us asking numerous times for you to put together a SS, it's not in a complete format. THIS situation is why a SS is important.

Given the lack of information upon which to make a decision, if you are not comfortable shooting the full dose, shoot a reduced dose. I would encourage you to go back and read the "Becoming Data Ready" sticky.
 
Re: Ragnar PMPS 145; +7 61, +8 68 (+6 74 yesterday) HELP!

Perhaps someone here can create a SS and input your numbers for you? As Sienne said, it does make it easier to see what's happening and advise you.
 
Re: Ragnar PMPS 145; +7 61, +8 68 (+6 74 yesterday) HELP!

Sienne and Gabby said:
A lot can happen in an hour. You need to decide if you are going to test or not. I'm not comfortable suggesting a course of action without a pre-shot test. It's up to you whether to reduce the dose and not test. I also can't make a recommendation without having data in front of me. Despite several of us asking numerous times for you to put together a SS, it's not in a complete format. THIS situation is why a SS is important.

Given the lack of information upon which to make a decision, if you are not comfortable shooting the full dose, shoot a reduced dose. I would encourage you to go back and read the "Becoming Data Ready" sticky.
Click to expand...
I put that SS together and posted it in about 20 minutes - without being familiar with them. I did explain that, and that I would tidy it up when it wasn't Panic Time. I know the format wasn't complete or standard, but all the recent info is there.

Reading about Shadow has given me more confidence, though. He's gone lower than Ragnar today, no one is worried, and he's getting more insulin than R. (1.75u if I remember correctly). Ragnar was in the 70s all during his honeymoon year, but that was on his own insulin - a lot safer. Shooting that much insulin into a cat with BG in the 70s is a little scary.

I asked his doctor whether I should test pre-shot, and what to do if it was below a certain number, say 100. She said not to test, just shoot. She's always been right before - I *am* tempted to test anyway and base the dosage on that. If it's under 100, I would want to give less than a unit!

She's right about not bouncing him up and down, though. He was in the 400s on 1u before (but that was *before*). I don't want to get him up to 400, down to 60, up to 400, etc.; she has a good point.

I will probably shoot the fat unit -- in a BD syringe. The new ones are great, but I think they hold a tad more insulin. Or maybe just a plain unit if I chicken out on the "fat."

BTW, where my own health is concerned I'm generally as brave as my fighter-pilot brother. I had a very severe angina attack in the car on Saturday evening, parked while it lasted and drove home after it subsided, didn't go to the emergency room, called the doctor on Monday. But my baby's health is another matter. When it seems I might die (my own doctor said I could at any time), my biggest worry is "What would happen to Ragnar?"!

Blessings!
 
Re: Ragnar PMPS 145; +7 61, +8 68 (+6 74 yesterday) HELP!

Any vet who says "Don't test, just shoot" gives me major pause.... :shock:
Heck, my vet suggested Donovan should get 6 units of Levemir when I switched to it. Yikes.

I am willing to maintain a SS for you if you want to send me the data you have.
 
Re: Ragnar PMPS 145; +7 61, +8 68 (+6 74 yesterday) HELP!

If you are talking about Shadoe, Shadoe is an acro cat -- the same rules do not apply. You missed the note in Gayle's signature about dose-related issues. If you are referring to Shadow/Pat, there is no R involved in the dosing. You have merged the two cats.

IMHO, you do not have enough data in your SS to shoot low numbers. It is your choice.
 
Re: Ragnar PMPS 145; +7 61, +8 68 (+6 74 yesterday) HELP!

MJ+Donovan said:
Perhaps someone here can create a SS and input your numbers for you? As Sienne said, it does make it easier to see what's happening and advise you.
Click to expand...
It might cause more delay between getting the info and posting it than if I just do it in a Word table (improved to the usual standard after I've had time to look at a few spreadsheets) and post a link myself. But if someone volunteers, I am willing to have a go at it!

The recent info is in the one I posted, though, and content is more important in a situation like this than form. There's just as much information as if I'd used the Google SS, and it shouldn't be difficult to read. Any ideas what I should do, based on all the info I have available, in the form I had time to use? (I don't mean ideas on spreadsheets just now, but ideas on shots!!! Sometimes you have to put first things first. :smile: )

Thanks and blessings!
 
Re: Ragnar PMPS 145; +7 61, +8 68 (+6 74 yesterday) HELP!

Sienne and Gabby said:
If you are talking about Shadoe, Shadoe is an acro cat -- the same rules do not apply. You missed the note in Gayle's signature about dose-related issues. If you are referring to Shadow/Pat, there is no R involved in the dosing. You have merged the two cats.

IMHO, you do not have enough data in your SS to shoot low numbers. It is your choice.
Click to expand...
No, I haven't merged them. I am referring solely to this post about - as I wrote - Shadow. viewtopic.php?f=9&t=15589

I think you misunderstood what I meant by "R" - I was just using Ragnar's initial as a kind of shorthand for his name!!
 
Re: Ragnar PMPS 145; +7 61, +8 68 (+6 74 yesterday)

MJ+Donovan said:
If I'm reading correctly, it looks like he responded well to 1.5U, so you shouldn't be terribly concerned about a fat 1U. But if it makes you feel better (particularly at night), shoot less, like 0.5U.
Click to expand...
Thanks - I appreciate the support! So it's a "good" response to 1.5, not an overresponse. That's what I was worried about.

Sounds as if the fat 1u should be OK in that case.

Blessings!
 
Re: Ragnar PMPS 145; +7 61, +8 68 (+6 74 yesterday) HELP!

MJ+Donovan said:
Any vet who says "Don't test, just shoot" gives me major pause.... :shock:
Heck, my vet suggested Donovan should get 6 units of Levemir when I switched to it. Yikes.

I am willing to maintain a SS for you if you want to send me the data you have.
Click to expand...
I didn't like the "don't test" part either...I'd much rather she'd told me to test and told me what to do with various results. But Dr. Jen has a wonderful track record, and it makes a difference. I've taken others' advice over hers exactly twice, and both times she was right and I regretted it! Your vet sounds a little more like the one Chiang had in the 90s - the one who was good with horses. :sad:

Thanks for the offer - gratefully accepted! I *can* turn the Word SS into a standard one (pdf or jpg), given a little time (like half an hour ;-) ). But if you are willing to input it for me and others prefer it to a table in pdf, I will send you the data at first opportunity after I get it. I hope you won't mind if that's not always immediately! I am swamped-busy (what a time for R.'s numbers to do this...)

Blessings!
 
Re: Ragnar PMPS 145; +7 61, +8 68 (+6 74 yesterday) HELP!

shirley, with all due respect...
the "ss" you've put together only represents a snapshot of the data which should have been collected since ragnor started on lantus. when i say "should have been collected", what i mean is, should have been collected for any of us to be able to comment, suggest, or recommend a dose responsibly.

as already mentioned, this is a testing forum. we can't won't pull a dose out of a hat. all dosing suggestions are based on hard data... and not just a limited hit or miss amount of data from a few random days. personally, i don't know how anyone can come to a conclusion that the dose you have been shooting is safe to shoot tonight on an unknown preshot number given the very limited and spotty data on your makeshift chart. i can't, and i've been doing this for almost four years.

fwiw, i agree with sienne... you do not have enough data to support shooting a full dose on a low preshot number. do you even have a +10 and/or preshot number yet? whether the ps number is high, low, or something in-between remains to be seen. what was his AM preshot number today?

situations like these is why we've repeatedly asked you to set up a spreadsheet... despite you telling us you weren't looking for help. as libby said the other day, "This is a testing forum, we're very numbers driven. We'll be happy to help you with your numbers or with questions specific to Lantus when you're ready to take that step."

are you ready to take that step? all you have to do is download Firefox as a second browser and set up a Google account to make and maintain a spreadsheet yourself. you can still keep whatever version of IE you are running. i use Firefox all the time as my primary browser and LOVE it. IE is my secondary browser and it remains on my computer. it did not have to be deleted.

we'd love to help, but you have to help us help you...
 
Re: Ragnar PMPS 145; +7 61, +8 68 (+6 74 yesterday) HELP!

or how about google chrome? it's another free browser. i like it as much as firefox -- like them both a lot.
you certainly wouldn't have a problem with googledocs spreadsheets on google chrome. i just like the security settings on firefox better because they're easier to figure out.

see what number you have at +11 or so before freaking out. he's had a really nice cycle this time. you may feel perfectly comfortable shooting at whatever preshot you get, based on the "midpoint" numbers you have this cycle.
 
Re: Ragnar PMPS 145; +7 61, +8 68 (+6 74 yesterday) HELP!

chriscleo said:
see what number you have at +11 or so before freaking out. he's had a really nice cycle this time. you may feel perfectly comfortable shooting at whatever preshot you get, based on the "midpoint" numbers you have this cycle.
Click to expand...
chris, the only numbers we have (according to the chart) for today's cycle are a +7 of 61 and a +8 of 68. we have absolutely no idea how low ragnor went. you'd suggest shooting the same dose not having any idea of when/what the nadir was?
 
Re: Ragnar PMPS 145; +7 61, +8 68 (+6 74 yesterday) HELP!

if he went too low, wouldn't you see a rebound number as time went on? that's why i was saying watch the numbers and look to how he's doing closer to shot time as an indication of whether prior skinnied up dose worked.
obviously we want an earlier test around a normal nadir to base dose upon, but if you don't have it this cycle you can't go back in time to get it. if he went way too low you'd expect a bounce. his +6 yesterday was a nice number, too.

clearly i defer to you, tho. :) what i was responding to is a feeling she was getting frustrated about the spreadsheet so i was trying to soften the tone here. i remember when i started how stressed i got so every issue got magnified, especially if my vet's instructions conflicted with what i heard here. plus my vet got me so scared of hypos that i got stressed at even 60s and 70s, which are actually nice numbers.

[but definitely always test before you shoot. many vets are used to clients who don't home test their cats, but we've learned here at FDMB thru much experience that a cat can throw an unexpected low so it's always important to check before shooting.]
 
Re: Ragnar PMPS 145; +7 61, +8 68 (+6 74 yesterday) HELP!

Morning Shirley....wondering how things went last night....
Here in LL we link our previous threads (condos) to the first one each day. We open one condo per day and put updates for BGs and any questions in the one condo.
So, here is the link from you Wednesday's condo: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=15552

Today, Friday you will start a brand new condo and link today's thread to the first post of the day.
As you can see, there are many kitties on this forum and there are certain things we all do all the time to make it easier to refer to the day before and also to view what is going on with each kitty via the spreadsheet. Have you clicked on anyone's spreadsheets here yet? I know you are visiting other condos so that is a good thing. Please click on Shadow's SS at the bottom of my post and you will see the format. It is color coded and automatically is available for everyone on this forum to see.

This forum is a wealth of knowledge and help...but we do need certain tools in order to be a part of the community. I hope that you will have time today to read the posts in the Tech Support Forum on spreadsheets:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=16
Once you have the SS up and working, you will find it very easy to update it. You did a good job with attaching the picture so I know you can do this!
Hope Ragnar is doing okay today...don't forget to start a new condo...see you later!! :mrgreen:
 
Re: Ragnar PMPS 145; +7 61, +8 68 (+6 74 yesterday) HELP!

FYI, I have IE6 at work and the Google spreadsheet works fine. I just set this spreadsheet up from work: http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key= ... utput=html

The first time I went into my spreadsheet I didn't see the Share button, but I backed out and went back in again and it was there. You only need that button the first time anyway, once you set it up to publish then it will publish automatically after that. Have you tried to use it, or are you just assuming it won't work because the notice at the top says IE 6 isn't supported?
 
Re: Ragnar PMPS 145; +7 61, +8 68 (+6 74 yesterday) HELP!

chriscleo said:
if he went too low, wouldn't you see a rebound number as time went on? that's why i was saying watch the numbers and look to how he's doing closer to shot time as an indication of whether prior skinnied up dose worked.
Click to expand...
one would think you'd see a rebound number as time went on, but...
when would the bounce show up... would it show up before the next shot time? would it show up the next cycle? or would it perhaps show up a the cycle after that? or later? or will a bounce show up at all?

some kitties bounce in the same cycle as the low. some the following cycle. others, the cycle after that or later. we often say those kitties have a delayed bounce.

and how low did ragnor go? have his lows been in a nice comfortable 50 - 60 range, or did has he dropped into the 30s or 40s? we have no way of knowing based on the data provided.

when does ragnar typically bounce and how low did he go? imo, there is not enough data collected to make that determination. if one can't deduce patterns from data collected, i simply don't know how to responsibly suggest a safe dose. kwim?

obviously we want an earlier test around a normal nadir to base dose upon, but if you don't have it this cycle you can't go back in time to get it. if he went way too low you'd expect a bounce. his +6 yesterday was a nice number, too.
Click to expand...

see above.
yes, the +6 was a nice number yesterday. did he drop lower at +4 or +5? again, there's no way of knowing. heck, i don't even know if that +6 was during the AM or PM cycle. the data (two numbers) from the 26th *appears* to be from one cycle only. there is no indication which cycle it's from.

i stand by my statement. i don't know how anyone could possibly determine whether or not it was safe for shirley to shoot a full dose last night given the limited data provided.

just my thoughts...
 
Re: Ragnar PMPS 145; +7 61, +8 68 (+6 74 yesterday) HELP!

Here is a first attempt at Ragnar's SS. I will also add it to his current condo when it is posted.
Ragnar's SS

Shirley, send me any additional data you have when you get a chance, and let me know if I misunderstood the PDF table.
 
Re: Ragnar PMPS 145; +7 61, +8 68 (+6 74 yesterday) HELP!

thank you, MJ! it was awfully nice of you to set up a ss for shirley.

when you get a chance, will you please add rows to start ragnar's ss out on may 5th as well as add rows for the 22nd, 23rd, and 24th? i believe may 5th is the day of his first lantus shot. i also understand there were early and late shots. noting the +hour in the amps or pmps cells would be helpful.
perhaps shirley can fill in the missing data...
 
Re: Ragnar PMPS 145; +7 61, +8 68 (+6 74 yesterday) HELP!

Using Word in place of the google docs ss is not a good idea because not every HAS Word.
It is quite expensive to purchase copies of MS Word and Excel and Access. For quite some time, I made good use of free apps.
That's what is so good about the ss used here by everyone: it's free and easy to use.

I looked at the ss that MJ started (thx MJ) and there's just not enough data to say a thing.
If you look at my two ss, one for Shadoe and one for Oliver, you will see that with the testings I have done, I can now say that Oliver has his nadir close to +10 or something and Shadoe is more like +4 or +5, but if you looked at their +6 only, you would not be able to see those two HUGE different nadirs.

When everyone says each cat is different, they are not kidding. In the beginning, gathering numbers will help you later to know what YOUR cat does.

There are TWO tests that you must get each day: amps and pmps. Before you give that shot, you need to know if your cat is already low. If you tested at ps and the number you got was 50, just imagine if you had NOT tested and just gone ahead with that shot. Then, you may really need help.
I don't know what others think, but you could test at +3, +6, +9 and the ps for each cycle. Another good test time is just before you go to bed; you need to know where your cat is before you head off to sleep for the nite.

Once you get started on the ss and testing at set times, it will become a habit.
 
Re: Ragnar PMPS 145; +7 61, +8 68 (+6 74 yesterday) HELP!

Totally agree with Gayle....learning how your own kitty is doing thru any cycle is good data to have.

I've added a section from one of the stickies, this chart has helped me and others figure out good times to test....as you gather more and more data, you will most definitely see your own kitties patterns and you will gain the knowledge of when your own kitty goes low; how LC, MC and HC foods affect their numbers, when they start to rise, etc...

these test times (in bold), are typically the usual test times most here do as an example,,,this doesn't mean your kitty will have it's nadir at +6, some get it early (+4/+5 like mine did early on - and sure enough nadir can change) and some get it later in the cycle (+7/+8 or +9) once you start to fill in some of these important test times, you will see what Ragnar does on each cycle.

And yes - always always a before bedtime check.
*******************************************************************************

From the stickie up above: New to the Group

Learn how YOUR kitty is responding to insulin:
Onset - the length of time before insulin reaches the bloodstream & begins lowering blood glucose
Peak/Nadir - the lowest point in the cycle
Duration - when the insulin is strongest or works the hardest
How to do a Curve

Example of a typical curve:
+0 - PreShot number.
+1 - Usually higher than PreShot number because of the last shot wearing off. May see a food spike in this number.
+2 - Often similar to the PreShot number.
+3 - Lower than the PreShot number, onset has started.
+4 - Lower.
+5 - Lower.
+6 - Nadir/Peak (the lowest number of cycle).
+7 - Surf (hang around the nadir number).
+8 - Slight rise.
+9 - Slight rise.
+10 - Rising.
+11 - Rising (may dip around +10 or +11).
+12 - PreShot number.


Glad to see MJ helping you with a spreadsheet!
Do take the help offered for spreadsheets ok?
Honestly, what everyone here says, spreadsheet is needed - it truly is the right and safe way to offer dose feedback for your kitty.
And with data collection - so much better!

Take care Shirley and have a good long weekend!
 
Re: Ragnar PMPS 145; +7 61, +8 68 (+6 74 yesterday) HELP!

Ragnar's SS
okey dokey, I have tried to insert whatever data I could figure out from previous posts. Shirley will correct/verify/add data through me when she can.
 
Re: Ragnar PMPS 143; shot 1.5u

jan and sara said:
Hi Shirley,

I'm glad you finally got your syringes from Hocks and that they are working out well. What is the name brand? I have short needle also and I'll never go back. Love them, and I'm glad Ragnor does too. I bet maybe the hiding problem was a lot to do with the needle that you had. Also if you [maybe you know this already] inject it with the needle side up it slides in even better. Just look in a well lit area and you can see it.

My ss is in google docs and someone had to do it for me. I don't know how these other ways would work out, someone else could tell you more than me. But it would be great if you could get one going. If you want help with questions about doseage etc, its a lot easier to open a ss. At a glance they can tell what story the #'s are telling you. Also you can put notes on the side that might be pertinent to the situation.

I love mine, would'nt be without it. Good luck getting something going. Oh and one thing. I think all information is usefull. Even if it was before Ragnors shed was full. Its always best to put it all in. It might mean something, you never know.

Good luck with everything. Glad Ragnor is back to being a lap cat. cat_pet_icon

jan and sara
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Someone who can get Google Docs volunteered to do mine, too - maybe the same person who does yours, who knows? I'm really grateful. The Word table has the data, but some people can't see past the form to get the message in it - in this case, that his BG had declined very greatly, very recently on the same dose, a reason to be very cautious!

The new syringes are Ultra Comfort 3/10cc, 31 gauge, from Hocks. Ragnar barely feels the shot and will have no reason to hide at shot time, however he may still dislike test time. (He's had an awful lot of tests on those ears; last summer Dr. Jen and I looked at the scar tissue (which later grew back to fur) and sighed. I don't blame him for minding them; it's a pity that he has to have them anyway!)

Blessings!
 
Re: Ragnar PMPS 145; +7 61, +8 68 (+6 74 yesterday) HELP!

Gayle and Shadoe said:
Using Word in place of the google docs ss is not a good idea because not every HAS Word.
It is quite expensive to purchase copies of MS Word and Excel and Access. For quite some time, I made good use of free apps.
That's what is so good about the ss used here by everyone: it's free and easy to use.

I looked at the ss that MJ started (thx MJ) and there's just not enough data to say a thing.
If you look at my two ss, one for Shadoe and one for Oliver, you will see that with the testings I have done, I can now say that Oliver has his nadir close to +10 or something and Shadoe is more like +4 or +5, but if you looked at their +6 only, you would not be able to see those two HUGE different nadirs.

When everyone says each cat is different, they are not kidding. In the beginning, gathering numbers will help you later to know what YOUR cat does.

There are TWO tests that you must get each day: amps and pmps. Before you give that shot, you need to know if your cat is already low. If you tested at ps and the number you got was 50, just imagine if you had NOT tested and just gone ahead with that shot. Then, you may really need help.
I don't know what others think, but you could test at +3, +6, +9 and the ps for each cycle. Another good test time is just before you go to bed; you need to know where your cat is before you head off to sleep for the nite.

Once you get started on the ss and testing at set times, it will become a habit.
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I didn't put it up as a Word doc because I know not everyone has it. I put it up as pdf (Adobe Acrobat; free reader) and offered to change that to jpg (which is simply a photo) if anyone minded using Acrobat.

MJ is just starting this ss - don't criticize her yet. Dr. and I have found his nadir at +7 (he had risen a little by +8) and I'll send MJ another +7 result today if all goes well.

Our PM shot is just before bed, so those can be combined. Dr. Jen told me to test at +6 the first day, then +7, then +8 the next two days (which I did on one day), and we found his nadir around +7, so that's when I'm testing today. Do some spot checking too - that's how I found his 45 when he started his honeymoon last year. But there wasn't much need to test earlier this month while he was in the 400s - we started low and went slow, and he spent his first two weeks on doses we knew weren't enough.

This cat just won't tolerate six or more tests a day. He had the full treatment last year, and I can't blame him for being heartily sick of them. It's a pity, of course, that he has to have the most necessary ones anyway.

Blessings!
 
Re: Ragnar PMPS 145; +7 61, +8 68 (+6 74 yesterday) HELP!

We have a couple of preshot tests in the 190s- afterwhich he went into the mid-200s at +2, so it took at least that long for the shot to take effect. We know, then, that's he going to rise for 2 hours after his shot and take that into consideration when I give it...
Jill & Alex said:
shirley, with all due respect...
the "ss" you've put together only represents a snapshot of the data which should have been collected since ragnor started on lantus. when i say "should have been collected", what i mean is, should have been collected for any of us to be able to comment, suggest, or recommend a dose responsibly.

as already mentioned, this is a testing forum. we can't won't pull a dose out of a hat. all dosing suggestions are based on hard data... and not just a limited hit or miss amount of data from a few random days. personally, i don't know how anyone can come to a conclusion that the dose you have been shooting is safe to shoot tonight on an unknown preshot number given the very limited and spotty data on your makeshift chart. i can't, and i've been doing this for almost four years.

fwiw, i agree with sienne... you do not have enough data to support shooting a full dose on a low preshot number. do you even have a +10 and/or preshot number yet? whether the ps number is high, low, or something in-between remains to be seen. what was his AM preshot number today?

situations like these is why we've repeatedly asked you to set up a spreadsheet... despite you telling us you weren't looking for help. as libby said the other day, "This is a testing forum, we're very numbers driven. We'll be happy to help you with your numbers or with questions specific to Lantus when you're ready to take that step."

are you ready to take that step? all you have to do is download Firefox as a second browser and set up a Google account to make and maintain a spreadsheet yourself. you can still keep whatever version of IE you are running. i use Firefox all the time as my primary browser and LOVE it. IE is my secondary browser and it remains on my computer. it did not have to be deleted.

we'd love to help, but you have to help us help you...
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Re: Ragnar PMPS 145; +7 61, +8 68 (+6 74 yesterday) HELP!

chriscleo said:
or how about google chrome? it's another free browser. i like it as much as firefox -- like them both a lot.
you certainly wouldn't have a problem with googledocs spreadsheets on google chrome. i just like the security settings on firefox better because they're easier to figure out.

see what number you have at +11 or so before freaking out. he's had a really nice cycle this time. you may feel perfectly comfortable shooting at whatever preshot you get, based on the "midpoint" numbers you have this cycle.
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Yes, it really was a nice cycle! It only gave me pause that he'd come down so quickly so recently. What you see going down, you may assume will continue to go down for the same reason, and I was concerned that he'd continue to fall rapidly on the same or a similar dose.

I shot a simple 1u last night and a fat 1u (very close to the slender 1.5 that had given him these numbers) today. Now, test at +7, Doctor says, and I will send that data to MJ.

Of course there are times when I'll ask for help - as I hope everyone does from time to time. I've just used that word, "time" several, er, times, and that's one of the problems with testing constantly throughout the day: TIME. I don't have enough time; many days I'm not even home during the day and don't have a chance to do all that testing - besides the fact that if I overdo it, Himself may go into hiding again. I at least have him visible for the most-needed tests and the most important things: his shots (and other meds). Do too much more, and he'd disappear. (I posted on that earlier as a major problem!)

Blessings!
 
Re: Ragnar PMPS 145; +7 61, +8 68 (+6 74 yesterday) HELP!

Shirley, it may not be your browser that is the problem. There are 2 small but very important steps that you must take in order to edit a spreadsheet now that Mj has set one up for you.
  • --You must be signed into your google account
    --You must be on the editable version of the page, not the public one. At the very bottom of the SS page if there is a button "Edit this page if you have permission" click it and you will be able to use the spreadsheet. I assume that MJ set the sheet up with you as the owner.

Look, I know you are feeling that there is an obsession about doing things one way here. But these people are trying to help. They are also helping many other people w/ their cats. If everyone used a different format little would get done, all the time would be spent trying to figure out each different reporting system. Also without enough data the advisors can't risk giving advice that may be bad for your cat. Yes testing is a pain for both you and Ragnar, but without it you will not have the tools to help him. Everyone is really trying to help you, please let them by getting the data that is needed. They can't help without it.
 
Re: Ragnar PMPS 145; +7 61, +8 68 (+6 74 yesterday) HELP!

Shirley and Ragnar said:
We have a couple of preshot tests in the 190s- afterwhich he went into the mid-200s at +2, so it took at least that long for the shot to take effect. We know, then, that's he going to rise for 2 hours after his shot and take that into consideration when I give it...
Click to expand...
yes, a rise after shooting is what we *expect* to see, but it doesn't always happen that way. imagine my surprise when i happened to test alex at +1 one night and got a 38. i'm not the only caregiver who has seen sizable drops at +1 or +2. the point is, what we think we know doesn't always pan out the way we think it will. without patterns to analyze provided by data collected, you'll find you can't always bank on what "you know".

those of us who offer dosing advice over the internet can't either. hard data HAS to support whatever suggestions are made when dosing help is requested. without data, we have nothing to support our suggestions... which can be downright dangerous for your kitty. offering dosing advice is serious business and should not be offered or taken lightly. like i said in my first post in this thread, "we'd love to help, but you have to help us help you." without a minimum amount of data available for viewing, we're simply not going to be able to help... not because we don't want to!

"do no harm" is the number one rule here... and i/we wouldn't want it any other way.
 
Shirley,

That was nice of MJ to set up a ss for you. It was actually someone else who helped me,but it was a great help. Like I said I would'nt be without one now.

As far as Ragnor's ears go. Are you holding a tissue on his ear for about 5 seconds or so after you have gotten his test? My Sara's ears don't look bad at all. In fact I can't even notice. Once in awhile there has been a poke that is noticeable but for the most part they look great. In fact there are times when she will lift her head up as to say "oh its you again" and than go right back down and sleep through the test. What kind of lancet are you using? Do you know the gauge?

I am not home m-f because of work, so I can not test than either. But I get them in when I can. Weekends and nights. I just know that the data has helped me out when a similar situation arises.

Good luck with Ragnor and glad he is your lap cat again.

jan and sara
 
Shirley,

That was nice of MJ to set up a ss for you. It was actually someone else who helped me,but it was a great help. Like I said I would'nt be without one now.

As far as Ragnor's ears go. Are you holding a tissue on his ear for about 5 seconds or so after you have gotten his test? My Sara's ears don't look bad at all. In fact I can't even notice. Once in awhile there has been a poke that is noticeable but for the most part they look great. In fact there are times when she will lift her head up as to say "oh its you again" and than go right back down and sleep through the test. What kind of lancet are you using? Do you know the gauge?

I am not home m-f because of work, so I can not test than either. But I get them in when I can. Weekends and nights. I just know that the data has helped me out when a similar situation arises.

Good luck with Ragnor and glad he is your lap cat again.

jan and sara
 
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