Ragnar 74 +6 :) (Hiding problem with Ragnar)

[Shirley and Ragnar]

I posted last night to ask for advice about Ragnar's new habit of hiding at shot time - making his shots very irregular and tests next to impossible. Because I added it to my previous post about syringes (one post per cat per day) and changed the subject line, I only had two replies - though good ones. Here's a link to my rather desperate post yesterday. viewtopic.php?f=9&t=15478

Good news - I found two large, juicy catnip plants in a corner of my yard last night, which should help. And he did come out at +6 test time - I didn't test because a)I still couldn't find the rice sock after an hour's search - had tried testing a cold ear the day before, but it didn't work and made matters worse, and b)I wanted to give him some positive reinforcement without any "bad" stuff preceding it. Just a lot of huggy kissy. He'd had enough of "Mean Mommy" who sticks him with sharp objects to last a while, and he really needed a little of the "Good Mommy" he was used to in his honeymoon and pre-diabetic days.

I think his numbers on 1.5u are in a quite safe range, though not yet ideal: his most recent tests on it, maybe 3 days ago, were 193 PMPS and 228 +2. (The +4 and +5 tests before those didn't make much sense - they were much too high [421+4, 280 +5] - but he had just gone up from 1u and hadn't been on 1.5 long enough for it to take effect.)

I hope to get a +6 reading tonight and try to find his nadir. Cindy (& Mousie) is sending me a new rice sock (there was little left of the old one anyway, though it still did its job), and I'm making one to tide us over.

He's sleeping on my bed right now - perfectly findable! I only hope he's in such a place at 7:30.

Blessings!

 

[Pat+Raja+Shadow (GA)]

Re: Hiding problem with Ragnar

I agree with Gayle that you should not free feed any more. Start offering food every 4 hours maybe so there will be a routine. And as Ann said, have a good routine: a place that is well lit to test ...I used a towel spread out with all my stuff right next to it. No doubt about what we are doing when i place him on the towel. All the things she suggested yesterday are important!

My female kitty Raja used to hide in the very beginning. We were giving her 3.0u Vetsulin b.i.d. I was not home testing then. That was what the vet prescribed.

Once i began testing after I joined the forum, we started her off at .6u Vetsulin and from there she worked her way down to OTJ!! So, my experience tells me that a kitty will hide if they are not feeling well. You are not giving as much insulin as I was giving Raja thankfully.

We need to reassure Ragnar that everything will be fine. Usually, they start feeling better with the insulin and they associate it with the testing and shooting. let's hope that will happen with Ragnar. But it is up to you to set the tone. Be firm but very very loving and explain it in words if you can.

Shutting off some rooms will be a good start....but you really have to be able to test when you want to. There are times that I cannot find my two...even in a small apartment...they find so many places to hide. But it is very important that you have access to Ragnar whenever you want! Maybe you can brainstorm that a little more. If you cannot eliminate the hiding places then I would put him in one room and that's that! Allow an airing once in awhile...but belive me, you need to be able to find him especially if his numbers go low and you want to retest to make sure he is ok.

Also, it is very very important that you document all the numbers you are getting and then attach the spreadsheet to your posts here because we do need to see the numbers....check out this link to the Tech forum: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=16
You did great with the link to yesterday's condo in your post! :thumbup That is very important too. But please work on the Spreadsheet and ask questions so we can help you, k?

 

[Libby and Lucy]

Re: Hiding problem with Ragnar

Hi Shirley, you'll probably get a better response to your question if you post in Health or Community. This is a testing forum, we're very numbers driven. We'll be happy to help you with your numbers or with questions specific to Lantus when you're ready to take that step.

 

[Hillary & Maui (GA)]

Re: Hiding problem with Ragnar

Let me know about the syringes - offer stands.

 

[Shirley and Ragnar]

Re: Hiding problem with Ragnar

Hi Shirley, you'll probably get a better response to your question if you post in Health or Community. This is a testing forum, we're very numbers driven. We'll be happy to help you with your numbers or with questions specific to Lantus when you're ready to take that step.

You're right that hiding isn't specific to Lantus. :smile: I'm going mostly to Dr. Jen with the numbers, but want to report that I lured him out immediately from an undisclosed location using a bruised catnip leaf, fed him the leaf a little at a time, fed him some of the juiciest food in his can, and got a drop on the first prick - at the very edge - and his reading was 74! That's right where he was during his year-long honeymoon!

He wasn't too traumatized, and I'm now going to email Dr. Jen the number. She will probably have me test +5 and +7 next - on different days since he's taken to objecting so much. And I am not going to let this turn into "catnip aversion therapy" - he is going to get some catnip from time to time with no test and no shot!

Blessings!

 

[Shirley and Ragnar]

Re: Hiding problem with Ragnar

I agree with Gayle that you should not free feed any more. Start offering food every 4 hours maybe so there will be a routine. And as Ann said, have a good routine: a place that is well lit to test ...I used a towel spread out with all my stuff right next to it. No doubt about what we are doing when i place him on the towel. All the things she suggested yesterday are important!

My female kitty Raja used to hide in the very beginning. We were giving her 3.0u Vetsulin b.i.d. I was not home testing then. That was what the vet prescribed.

Once i began testing after I joined the forum, we started her off at .6u Vetsulin and from there she worked her way down to OTJ!! So, my experience tells me that a kitty will hide if they are not feeling well. You are not giving as much insulin as I was giving Raja thankfully.

We need to reassure Ragnar that everything will be fine. Usually, they start feeling better with the insulin and they associate it with the testing and shooting. let's hope that will happen with Ragnar. But it is up to you to set the tone. Be firm but very very loving and explain it in words if you can.

Shutting off some rooms will be a good start....but you really have to be able to test when you want to. There are times that I cannot find my two...even in a small apartment...they find so many places to hide. But it is very important that you have access to Ragnar whenever you want! Maybe you can brainstorm that a little more. If you cannot eliminate the hiding places then I would put him in one room and that's that! Allow an airing once in awhile...but belive me, you need to be able to find him especially if his numbers go low and you want to retest to make sure he is ok.

Also, it is very very important that you document all the numbers you are getting and then attach the spreadsheet to your posts here because we do need to see the numbers....check out this link to the Tech forum: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=16
You did great with the link to yesterday's condo in your post! :thumbup That is very important too. But please work on the Spreadsheet and ask questions so we can help you, k?

I'm doing most of this already - especially the reassuring, etc. All except the spreadsheet - and I test him on my lap. (Agree it might be a good idea to put a towel or something on my lap, so he won't assume I will test him every time he sits there!)

I'm new to Lantus (just since end of honeymoon May 4), but not by any means new to feline diabetes. Weng Chiang was diabetic for over four years in the 90s and died of something else. Dr. Jen and I got Ragnar to a year-long honeymoon from pre-shot numbers of 600+ (the meter would just say "Hi") last year - on Vetsulin, believe it or not! He was having two big mealsn(unnatural for a cat) because this insulin started working and quit working so quickly, we had to have the food in him at the same time it was working - twice a day. But Dr. Jen and I both believe very strongly that a cat should eat when he's hungry. (Unless there's an overriding concern - and this might be one.)

Feeding him every 4 hours sounds great - when I'm home to do it! Sadly, that's the case right now but won't always be. I might be able to come home, sometimes, only at shot and test times - and at night. Then, of course, I have to free feed him; I wouldn't give him two big slugs of food and nothing else.

In any case, today's news is great - I got him out of hiding with a catnip leaf (and he'd only hidden a short time; most of the day he was lying openly on my bed), and he's back to normal sometimes, sitting on my lap and looking at me with all that love in his eyes! His reading at +6 was a lovely 74. I'll do his other tests one per day, so there's not a lot to put in a spreadsheet.

By the way, Ragnar isn't hiding because he doesn't feel well, as Cindy did last year before she died of FIP. It's obvious from his body language and energy level that he feels just fine! He's hiding because he doesn't like to be stuck with something sharp. Smart kitty (just not smart enough to understand diabetes). In fact, he's really smart, because he is competely accessible except just before a shot or test - he went into his hiding place only 40 minutes before I was going to test him. He probably picks up a signal from me - and since I'm really circumspect about this and never get out a needle, test kit, etc. when he's looking, I guess he's picking up something really subliminal or reading my mind. :smile:

PS: Your vet started you at 3 units? He (had to be a man!) sounds a bit like Chiang's doctor, who I hear was good with horses. Chiang died in 1997 after 4 years on a regimen that makes me blanch now, of a completely treatable pancreas infection that Dr M. refused to treat. For the previous 4 years he was on Humulin N once a day, with all his food for the day (dry food) 8 hours after the shot (in other words, after his insulin had stopped working). It's incredible he lived on that for four years, and that your cat survived 3 units when she needed 0.6. It only shows how resilient they are.

With Dr. Jen and the Board, Chiang probably would have lived to be 18 rather than 12. I am very glad you found the Board, and hope you also found a vet like Dr. Jen (whose first move after dx was to send me here!).

Blessings!

 

[Shirley and Ragnar]

Re: Syringes

Let me know about the syringes - offer stands.

Thanks!! My syringes from Hocks arrived today, to the veterinary hospital. I'd forgotten - I had them sent there at Dr. Jen's request because she wanted to examine them first. She's going to make sure these are good syringes before a needle goes into Ragnar!

Tomorrow I will pick them up and find out if 1.5 unit in these syringes is the same as 1.5 when I eyeball it. I suppose we will have to test him again at various times to make sure it's really equivalent. If he does well on their 1.5, that might be the number we will stay with.

Blessings!

 

[Shirley and Ragnar]

Hiding - OR MOUSING? Also, more on the 74 +6

Hi Shirley, you'll probably get a better response to your question if you post in Health or Community. This is a testing forum, we're very numbers driven. We'll be happy to help you with your numbers or with questions specific to Lantus when you're ready to take that step.

Say, he might not be hiding after all - though it makes perfect sense when he doesn't like to be stuck and disappears just as I'm about to do it, with flawless 20/20 foresight. The alternate explanation just ran across the floor in front of me. ;-) I'll take that part over to general diabetes, since it relates to timing his shots and testing (whatever his motivation).

More to the point for this forum: I called Dr. Jen about his 74, and she was very happy with it. We aren't sure +6 is his nadir, though; she didn't have me decrease the dose because he's been feeling well, but I am to test him at +7 tomorrow and +8 next day. (Since his +2 was much higher than his preshot last time, he seems to be reacting to Lantus later rather than sooner than average.) We need to get a +5 too - and get them all after we switch to the new syringes.

If anything, my eyeballed 1.5 units were on the conservative side. Tomorrow I get the syringes with 1/2 unit marks and he gets a true 1.5 - which could be a little less, or more likely a little more.

Because of his low numbers, we're keeping up the free feeding. The first sign of a hypo is hunger, and if for any reason he has to treat a hypo himself, we want him to have the means to do it! And he got that 74 after a day of eat, eat, eat. (I just wonder if it was all cat food! )

Blessings!