QUOTES I FOUND ON ANOTHER FORUM ABOUT LANTUS - CRAZY!!!

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Patty & Champ

Member Since 2011
When I was helping someone last night with a cat with low numbers, she mentioned another protocol she had used before to get her cat OTJ. When it was pointed out to her that protocol is only for PZI insulin, she said she knew that, but there were a few people who advised her in the use of Lantus, but no one was going to advise Lantus users anymore. I read this protocol and then signed up for the forum (which is a disorganized mess and not very active) and pulled these quotes from some of what they call their "stickies." Hmmm....where did they get that term? The advice they are giving Lantus users is completely opposite to what we have been taught. When I read the protocol, it all made sense (using PZI), but since I don't know how people on our forum use PZI, I have no idea how it differs. It almost made me wish I had Champ on PZI and could give it a try. Until I read how they were advising Lantus users and then I realized they may be giving PZI users bad advice, too. The link below is to the website where this protocol is located. If I shouldn't have posted this, let me know and I'll delete it.

http://www.yourdiabeticcat.com/protocol.html

I don't know about Lantus, other than it is hard to work with. However, please don't shoot if the reading is unde4er 150. I believe with Lantus you can shoot at 10+ hours if the bg level is 150 or more.


As you have seen, dry food will drive the BGs straight up.....

As Debbie said, both fish and beef are allergens to certain cats, so it would be best to avoid those.

DId you have basic blood work done to make sure that they do not simply have a stomach upset of some type?

3u of Lantus BID is a very high dose to start with. I understand that you are testing at home - which is great! But when are/were you testing then? How many hours after the shot? How often between shots? 96 is a very good BG - but it depends when that is... if it is early, it can mean that she was dropping way too low.

The recommended starting sliding scale for Lantus is this:

BG ...US Dose (mg/dl)...Intl Metric Dose(mmol/L)

150-250 ....8.3-13.9 ....0.25u
251-400..... 14.0-22.2.... 0.50u
401+ .......22.2 +....... 0.75u

As you can see, far far lower than you have been dosing.

You do need to try and move her (and your other cat!) back to 100% wet food. However, as she has been on dry, you will also need to detox : that means stopping insulin for 24 hours, monitoring BGs and then restarting with the scale. You have seen for yourself the difference that dry food vs. wet can make to BGs! A cat that is on dry food is not protected from a clinical hypo - their livers are asleep, and will not step in to protect them if they drop to low. It is very important to do the detox.

Three things need to be in place to dose Lantus:
- a minimum of 10 hours since the last shot
- BG a minimum of 150/8.3
- a bg that is rising (you need to make sure the BG is going up, not down, when you dose).

Keep going with the testing ... it will get easier! That, and 100% wet, low carb food, are your best arms to fight her FD!{/quote]


3) The best insulin for cats, since we do not have any feline insulin product available, is bovine PZI (protamine zinc insulin). This is because the insulin molecule from the cow is closest of all available insulins to the cats insulin molecule. Bovine PZI is a gentler product with a more predictable curve of activity than any other, and this makes it much easier for owners to apply TR to their cats care with good results. Other types of insulin, including lantus (human long-acting) insulin can be used with TR, as can other types, but it is harder to predict even on a day to day basis how these other products will act to reduce the blood glucose level of each patient. If you must use some type of insulin other than bovine PZI, you will use the same principles of adjustment of the dose of insulin you give but the usual rules that apply to bovine PZI, for example, the peak activity time of 6-8 hours, will likely not apply and you will need to establish for your own cat just how the insulin you are using behaves in your pet.
 
Patty: this is the site started by Dr. Elizabeth Hodgkins. She is a HUGE PZI advocate. She has some interesting things on her website and in her studies. My vet knows her and said she thinks Dr. H. is beginning to also see the advantages to Lantus. In some of the things I have read, it seems like a great majority of the cats that go into remission under her protocol are because they have been fed dry food.
 
YDC has been around for a long time. The sliding scale and early shot times have proven problematic for some cats. Jill and possibly Libby are much more familiar with this site than I am.
 
PLEASE DO NOT USE THAT PROTOCOL WITH LANTUS. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE. (yes, I am shouting).

That protocol is a good one for PZI, for people who can devote the time to it. It is not safe for use with Lantus. I do not know how it works with ProZinc or what insulin they are recommending now that Idexx PZI is off the market.

For one thing, the protocol does not take overlap into account at all. The amount of overlap is a fundamental difference between PZI and Lantus! Failing to understand the concept of the shed, then adding more insulin to a bounce, shooting based on preshot readings, etc. can lead to a prolonged hypo event. Lantus is not a "see a number, shoot a number" kind of insulin. Effects of a dose are seen over a period of days, not just a single cycle.

There are some situations where shooting Lantus at +10 is fine, once you know your cat's response. That is a decision that should be made by an advanced caregiver based on their own data.

I spent some time studying that protocol when Lucy was first diagnosed and was on PZI. I decided I could not attempt it because my schedule does not allow me to shoot around the clock. It has worked well for some people using PZI. There are some cats (and caregivers) who do better with an insulin that will allow them to deal with the number they see in front of them instead of trying to work with Lantus/Lev's overlap.

In my mind, if I'm using Lantus, then it makes the most sense to use a protocol designed for (and proven in) using Lantus in cats rather than trying to adopt a protocol created for a different insulin.

I'm very glad to hear they are no longer advising Lantus cats there.
 
But they are Libby!!!! The second quote was written just a day or two ago by someone who was telling a Lantus user to use a sliding scale when dosing!! I was horrified!!! That forum specifically says they will yank your privileges if you post negative things so we can't even let the Lantus users over there know they could be potentially harming their cats.
 
Do they have a PM option if you're not allowed to give advice openly?

That's such a ridiculous way to run a web site. Who decides who the "experts" are if no one is allowed to contradict an opinion?
 
patty, i'm very sorry to hear caregivers using lantus continue to receive dosing advice on the ydc website. you're right. if you post anything contrary to that web site's policy or anything the web master (who btw, is NOT dr. elizabeth hodgkins) deems inappropriate you will be deleted and/or banned. many of us have been banned from that site multiple times. :roll:

however, it's important to note dr. hodgkins' protocol has worked successfully for many, many cats who are/were on pzi. i'm not sure what the point is in discussing something happening on another web site. there are many web sites dealing with feline diabetes... some which provide advice for lantus users. i could give you links to others which would make your hair curl!

i'm very happy so many lantus and levemir users have found their way to the fdmb!
 
There has been a long standing difference of opinion in treatment between the two boards. It works REALLY well with PZI idexx. See spunky's old numbers in the link below. He was a high dose cat don't let the units throw you. it took tremendous effort to keep up with the monitoring and the dozing schedule.
I don't know much about lantus yet...but PZI had no shed. As far as I know they should be treated very differently. hopefully those there will find their way here too. If I have to learn lantus for Peake I'm going to need lots of help....I know the best help is here! So far he is off the juice...bg 84yesterday.
Jen
Edited to see if I can get the spreadsheet link to work....oh no if I can't!
 
That's the first website I stumbled across when Trix was initially diagnosed. I immediately got an uncomfortable feeling there. Thank goodness I found FDMB very shortly thereafter!
 
fortunately that site is pretty much dead and has been for a couple years. last time i looked there's probably less than half dozen posts a week there and usually by one or two people is all.

at some point, when Dr. H pulled away from that site and the webmaster got abusive with his wand, most people split from there and started another site. i don't know how they handle lantus there though, or if they even do.

fwiw, i also agree that it was a great protocol for pzi, very dangerous for lantus though as seen in the early days after idexx discontinued their form of pzi. while i can't do a 12/12 shot schedule with Mousie, i had over 3 years experience with her and this disease and i did try to get as close as possible to a 12/12 schedule when first switching her over to lantus. once i started to learn her responses to it and felt comfortable with it, only then did i start experimenting with flexibility much. it is NOT something i would ever feel comfortable telling someone new to the disease, insulin, and testing to do, unless i could go sit with their cat after the shot was given because it would be on My conscience if something went wrong.
 
the web master (who btw, is NOT dr. elizabeth hodgkins

Jill...thanks for clarifying. I remember when I was first researching FD and treatments, I found Dr. Hodgkin's site and this board was linked to it. I don't know if Dr. H was the webmaster at the time and no longer is or if I just misunderstood from her website (which I haven't looked at now in well over a year). So thanks very much for clearing that up :-D :-D
 
I had never seen this website & am only following the Lantus protocol for FDMB, now I am wondering if Baby should be on PZI :roll:
Does one have better results than the other, or is just dependent upon each individual's situation & the schedules they can commit to?
 
Nicole, that website is very disorganized and there is very little activity. While the protocol they follow for PZI sounds interesting, the fact they give very inaccurate and just plain dangerous advice about Lantus has to make anything they say about anything (including PZI) suspect. I wouldn't follow their instructions on how to take an aspirin to be quite honest.
 
Nicole & Baby said:
I had never seen this website & am only following the Lantus protocol for FDMB, now I am wondering if Baby should be on PZI :roll:
Does one have better results than the other, or is just dependent upon each individual's situation & the schedules they can commit to?

Studies show a higher remission rate in newly diagnosed cats for Lantus when coupled with tight regulation and a low carb diet. I think it's always a good first choice. It has has been shown to have better glycemic control.
 
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