questions about syringes and need more eyes on chart

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wplymale

wplymale

Member Since 2012
confused_cat It has been a month since Scratch had a very extreme hypo reaction. We have been monitoring him very closely and he seems to be doing better, but I need some more eyes on our chart.
Here are the specifics:
Scratch: 9 or 10 year old stray who has very few teeth after severe feline gingivitus (removal of teeth 1.5 yrs ago)
Diabetic for a year now
Insulin: Prozinc
Food: Go! Grain Free Chicken Turkey and Duck Patte
This summer we switched food and he went from needing 5 units down to 2 units of Prozinc. The vet also added glipizide. I was not doing my own testing at this point. Scratch had 2 hypo incidents and we went back to the vet. She gave me this website and I started doing my own testing. Scratch did well, but then had a really severe hypo last month and I posted to see what I could find out because the on call vet was no help at all. I stopped using the glipizide and did a glucose curve which was fairly normal (I think). Since then we have had some up and down days.

My questions:
1. I am using a syringe with an orange cap and the size is 3/10ml.cc 8mm length 31 guage. I am not sure this is what I should be using??? I just came across something on the site where someone was talking about it and now wondering.....?
2. I sometimes think that I should up the dose when Scratch is in the mid 300s, but worried that it will be too much and send him hypo. I am not real sure what is really normal?
3. I would love to change his food to something that is less expensive, but I am afraid to. My vet suggested this one and they sell it there, but it is so dang expensive and I have to go to the vet to get it which is not all that convenient. He has to have patte, but I am still confused of which ones that I can use. I have read the link on foods, but I guess I need it spelled out so I can understand it. It sounds like alot of you are using Friskies.....
4. After reading everything on dosing and doing the last curve, I decided to not give any more than 1 unit when dosing for a month so I can get him to a place where changes are actually justified, but I cannot decide if it is justified yet.

Any suggestions are greatly appreciated. Thank you so much! I don't know what I would do without this site.
 
wplymale said:
This summer we switched food and he went from needing 5 units down to 2 units of Prozinc.

My questions:
1. I am using a syringe with an orange cap and the size is 3/10ml.cc 8mm length 31 guage. I am not sure this is what I should be using??? I just came across something on the site where someone was talking about it and now wondering.....?
Click to expand...

ProZinc is a U40 insulin. Ideally you should use U40 insulin syringes.

The insulin syringes you have are U100 which can be used with ProZinc as long as you use the dose conversion chart ---> http://www.felinediabetes.com/insulin-conversions.htm

On the syringe barrel in tiny print it will say "For use with U100 insulin" or something like that. Your box of insulin syringes will also clearly state U100 on it.

2 units of ProZinc is measured to the 5 unit line on a U100 3/10 cc insulin syringe. If you are only measuring to the 2 unit line, you are actually giving only 0.8 units of ProZinc.


2. I sometimes think that I should up the dose when Scratch is in the mid 300s, but worried that it will be too much and send him hypo. I am not real sure what is really normal?
Click to expand...

Constant dose changing based on the pre-shot number can make it difficult to regulate blood glucose numbers well. I'm not familiar with ProZinc so how that insulin works may be different.

3. I would love to change his food to something that is less expensive, but I am afraid to. My vet suggested this one and they sell it there, but it is so dang expensive and I have to go to the vet to get it which is not all that convenient. He has to have patte, but I am still confused of which ones that I can use. I have read the link on foods, but I guess I need it spelled out so I can understand it. It sounds like alot of you are using Friskies.....
Click to expand...

You don't need the prescription food at all. The ingredients are pretty awful. Just tell the vet your cat won't eat the food anymore and then go buy some commerical canned foods.

Here are some quick food shopping lists you can use:
Dr. Lynne's Wet Food list
List of low carb gluten free Fancy Feast
http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=84885
http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=81687
http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=84885

Here are the more extensive food charts:
Dr. Lisa's new food chart http://www.catinfo.org/docs/Food Chart Public 9-22-12.pdf
Binky's canned food charts
Pet Food Nutritional Values list
Hobo's Guide To Nutritional Values

Look for foods under 10% carbs on the above four charts.

Friskies, Fancy Feast, Wellness, Merrick, Speical Kitty, and many other brands are popular. The GO! canned food you are feeding are just fine :smile: Make sure they are the grain-free ones.
 
Hi Wendy,
1. I am using a syringe with an orange cap and the size is 3/10ml.cc 8mm length 31 guage. I am not sure this is what I should be using??? I just came across something on the site where someone was talking about it and now wondering.....?
Click to expand...
You are using syringes with orange caps, and I'm 99.99% positive that those would be U100 syringes. Prozinc is a U40 insulin (exclusively, I believe). Please look on the vial and see that is says "U40". So, your syringes and your insulin don't match. Not unless you are using this conversion chart to measure the dose:
http://www.felinediabetes.com/insulin-conversions.htm

OK, this isn't a crisis. You say you've been giving 2u of Prozinc, right? If you have been drawing the Prozinc up to the 2u mark on the U100 syringes, then you have actually been giving a much smaller dose than you think you have been. You've been giving Scratch .8u, not 2u.
It is okay to use the U100 syringes, like I said. Please look over this link for an explanation of how that can be done:
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?p=340819#p340819 Scroll down until you see the heading "Using U100 Syringes and doing the conversion".
2. I sometimes think that I should up the dose when Scratch is in the mid 300s, but worried that it will be too much and send him hypo. I am not real sure what is really normal?
Click to expand...
4. After reading everything on dosing and doing the last curve, I decided to not give any more than 1 unit when dosing for a month so I can get him to a place where changes are actually justified, but I cannot decide if it is justified yet
Click to expand...

I'd rather not try to figure out the dose until we verify that the insulin you are using is Prozinc in U40 strength, and the syringes are U100 syringes. So I'll defer those questions for later.
3. I would love to change his food to something that is less expensive, but I am afraid to. My vet suggested this one and they sell it there, but it is so dang expensive and I have to go to the vet to get it which is not all that convenient. He has to have patte, but I am still confused of which ones that I can use. I have read the link on foods, but I guess I need it spelled out so I can understand it. It sounds like alot of you are using Friskies.....
Click to expand...
I haven't heard anything about "Go!" canned food. What I do know is that most of us use food we buy from the grocery store, or from a place like Petsmart or Petco. Just "off the shelf" brands that are canned, and contain a low percentage of calories from carbs. I think the most popular brands are Fancy Feast (only the cans that say "classic" on them) and Friskes "Pate" varieties.
Here is a link to a chart with tons of info on food, which was recently updated by Dr. Pierson. Look at the "%cal from carbs" column in particular. You want to feed food that is lower than 10% in the carbs column, and you'll see all the FF Classics and Friskees Pates meet that standard, along with many other choices by other catfood makers. We have found that for the most part, prescription food is way overpriced, and as far as the quality of the ingredients, they are not any better than off the shelf foods. In many cases, the off the shelf brands are actually higher quality.

Please check the vial of prozinc to see if it says "U40" on it?

Carl
 
Thanks for all the help. Bob....the prozinc is u40. I just looked at that conversion. I guess I am excited that he is needing less than I thought but don't like the fact that I have never known that. The original vet never said that I needed a certain kind of syringe.
 
LOL, no problem, Wendy. Other people have made the same mistake! That's what I get for giving him a human name. My other cat is Mullet, so I don't think that if he'd been the one to get diabetes, people would confuse us. :-D

Yes, if your vet prescribed Prozinc, he should have also prescribed the correct syringes. That's the primary reason (as far as I know) that the caps come in different colors. Red is for pet insulin, and orange is for human insulin (even though it can be used on cats or dogs), so they can't be confused. One point in her favor though, she apparently is aware of this site, and steered you here.

Yes it is good that Scratch has done as well as he has on a low dose of insulin.
2. I sometimes think that I should up the dose when Scratch is in the mid 300s, but worried that it will be too much and send him hypo. I am not real sure what is really normal?
Click to expand...
I agree, it does look like he might be needing a higher dose. And you're absolutely on the mark being concerned with "hypo" as that can happen. But since you're home testing, you're armed against that happening. Ideally, what you will want to start doing is figuring out how to get tests during the middle of the 12 hour cycle. In theory, his BG should drop down to it's low point between 5-7 hours after you give him his insulin. The low point is called the "nadir" of the cycle. The effectiveness of the Prozinc dose is shown by looking at the difference between the highest and lowest BG values over the 12 hour cycle. For example, you're seeing numbers in the low 300s at shot time lately. If his nadir is 250, then that would indicate that the dose should probably be increased a bit. If the nadir is 40, then that means the dose is too high. So in order to know, you'll need to get tests in the middle, and see if you can catch the low point.

I don't know what your "life schedule" is like. If and when it's possible, a curve where you are testing every 2 or 3 hours from the AM to the PM shot will be very useful, like you did on 12/9. Those number really weren't that bad. He dropped about 200 points on the 1u dose during that AM cycle. Of course, if you were using the U100 syringes, that wasn't actually 1 unit you were giving him. It was only .4u.

Have you always used the U100 syringes? I mean, are all the numbers on your chart from doses from those syringes?

Carl

edited typos
 
I have always used these syringes and I think I will continue but do the conversion because I fear that out of habit I will give him too much if I switch now. I will change my chart to reflect the right numbers though. I do have a timing issue for midday testing but I have 4 days off after tomorrow so I will do some serious testing. I am going to change up his food at the same time so that I know if it makes a difference. This has been extremely helpful. What lucky kitties we all have.
 
We suggest making one change at a time, so you know what is making the differences.

And if you're ok with math, 0.4 * the U-100 mark = the U-40 dose, because it is 40 units per mL, rather than 100 units per mL. Short version: its 40% of the U-100 measurement.
 
Thanks to everyone for your advice. I have fixed my chart by converting it from u-100 to u-40. I also bought Friskies classic pate and fed it to him tonight. Tomorrow I will do a curve and see what comes up. I know that I need to adjust insulin a little, but wanted to do it after switching food. One concern with new food is that it doesn't have any of the vegetables that were in the more expensive cat food. It also showed that there was a rice in it. It was on the list and everything else was appropriate.....Tonight I fed him the beef/chicken classic variety pate. Any comments? I will say that last week I spent $18+ dollars on 7 cans of food from the vet and today I paid $4.20 for 7 cans. I really hope it is ok for him because it is more than ok on my pocket book. I budget $100 for groceries a month and $80 for cat food.....really! I am starving here! lol.
 
Wendy,
I am VERY new here myself as my cat Moo was just diagnosed Dec 2.
Everyone on here REALLY knows what they are talking about. My vet has told me a lot of things that I shouldnt be doing. Or has not told me things I SHOULD be doing and everyone here has helped me see that and directed me to the right places for the right information.
My cat was only dry food his whole life. He is 8. I switched him to classic Friskies pate as well.
Just so you know, you can get a case of 24 cans of the classic pate at Walmart/Meijer/Target for $10-$11.
Also keep an eye in your weekend paper. I got coupons from Target for $5 off a purchase of 2 of the boxes of cans. So I was able to get 2 cases of 24 cans for only $17. 48 cans for $17 will help you even more!! I am on a TIGHT budget too.

Good luck! Sounds like you have come to the right place!! I know I am very happy to have found this board!
 
One concern with new food is that it doesn't have any of the vegetables that were in the more expensive cat food
Click to expand...
.
No veggies? That's a good thing. Cats are carnivores.
Lions and tigers don't eat salad :-D

Carl
 
wplymale said:
Thanks to everyone for your advice. I have fixed my chart by converting it from u-100 to u-40. I also bought Friskies classic pate and fed it to him tonight. Tomorrow I will do a curve and see what comes up. I know that I need to adjust insulin a little, but wanted to do it after switching food. One concern with new food is that it doesn't have any of the vegetables that were in the more expensive cat food. It also showed that there was a rice in it. It was on the list and everything else was appropriate.....Tonight I fed him the beef/chicken classic variety pate. ...
Click to expand...

No need to worry about the vegetables, you're feeding an obligate carnivore - an animal that never goes digging for carrots nor searching for an ear of corn ... unless, perhaps, starving

They may use a small amount of rice to hold the pate together, but it generally isn't enough to be a problem(<10% of calories). This does depend on the individual cat's sensitivity to carbohydrates.
 
It is always fun to wake up and say that you laughed before you brushed your teeth. Scratch is a tiger. All this time I have been forcing veggies on him.....no wonder he is so crabby. My sister will love this one.....she is convinced that I have lost my mind and my mom actually bought me a scarf with cats on it. Yes.....I have become a crazy cat lady. AND PROUD OF IT.... :-D .
 
Is the amount of food causing highs??

Well, we switched to Friskies Pate classis and did a curve to see where we were at. The first can I opened of Friskies was not packed very tight and the amount of food was way less when I fed him. I didn't give him any more because of it because I didn't want to sway the numbers too much. The curve was pretty good and didn't warrant a change in insulin, but the next morning Scratch spiked up over 400. He seemed to come down nicely during the day though. So....lastnight we gave him a little more food and he was at 197 this morning.....I tested him again with the other ear to make sure.

Question: Will numbers spike if they are stressed because they are not getting enough food????

GOOD MORNING AND HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL MY NEW CRAZY CAT FRIENDS!!
 
Carl & Bob said:
One concern with new food is that it doesn't have any of the vegetables that were in the more expensive cat food
Click to expand...
.
No veggies? That's a good thing. Cats are carnivores.
Lions and tigers don't eat salad :-D

Carl
Click to expand...

Ha ha - that's funny. and reminds me of the geico commerical with the gazelles in the night vision goggles telling Carl the lion that they can see him and suggesting that he may want to become a vegetarian.



Wendy - if you haven't opened all the cans of food from the vet - return them for a refund - most of that food is guaranteed by the manufacturer and the vet should refund you. Just tell him that the cat won't eat it.
 
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