Questions About decreasing PZi

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Ford

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It has been a while since we've posted but I have been trying to keep up with your posts! I hope everyone is well and set to enjoy a wonderful holiday with your sugar babies.

So, I decided early on to take it upon my own research and y'all's advice to help regulate Ford's numbers and hopefully work toward getting him OTJ. His vet intends well, but Ford's previous owners settled for survival instead of helping him thrive. The vet sees nothing wrong with this. Once I received my newbie kit at the first of June (thanks Lori and Tom, and everyone who donates!) I noticed just how off Ford's numbers were. This helped me convince Vet to help me with dosing changes and BID shots. For those who haven't met us, Ford is an '05 model and was on 4u PZi once daily when he came to me.

Well, we changed him to BID and vet upped the dose to get his numbers to stay out of the 400-500 range.

Still he was throwing up FF and only wanting his dry IAMS. I changed him to prescription diet w/d (we tried all kinds of non-prescription to no avail). His numbers have dropped to 110-250 consistently. I asked vet about lowering his PZi. Her reply: "leave well enough alone"-she may be right, but this was also her reply when he was "surviving" when i got him and her reply for keeping him on dry food when we changed him to BID even with numbers not staying regular..

At the time I asked about lowering his dose, Ford was getting 4u AM and 2u PM. I convinced Vet it wouldn't hurt to try since his numbers were decent--he has now been at 3u AM and 2u PM for almost a week and the numbers are steady.. He was at 238 +10.5 today.

He is eating 11oz W/D a day. With 1/3 cup of dry w/d for snack throughout the day (he actually enjoys this as a snack!)


What are you ideas/opinions about all of this and when should I make the decision to keep the insulin steady (I'd like him to at least be down to 2u bid), how much do y'all feed daily, anything else??

I believe the vet has always told owners that "this is what will have to be done forever" and newbies accept it from her. I want Ford to be happy AND healthy. Opinions?

Good news: Ford has not thrown up since the food change to W/D. (:

Thanks everyone,
Megan and Ford
 
Your numbers aren't awful. If he was in the 200s at 10, do you know what he was at around +6? That might have been his lowest point of the day. If you can set up a spreadsheet, it really helps you see patterns and trends that might get lost in all the numbers otherwise. We are having trouble with getting it from Google. You might try signing on to Google, then google docs, then templates, then FDMB spreadsheet.

If he were mine, I would try to get rid of all the dry food. That could make the difference. You can let him snack on the wet if he is happy eating it. If he likes the crunchies, there are lo carb snacks that are kind crunchy: Purebites is one. Some cats love the Bonito flakes which are dried meat. Here is a list of low carb snacks: Lo carb treats WD wet isn't awful - only 7% carbs. It is expensive and liver based so some cats get tired of it. I feed Fancy Feast. You can check out the food charts and try for a lower carb. But it is important that he eat and WD wet is better than dry.

It is okay to give a different amount of PZI am and pm, but usually you do it when you have a higher preshot at one of those times. Is that the case with Ford? It might be wise to even it out and give the same amount twice daily to see how that impacts the numbers.

Suppose we have shared the PZI document with you? viewtopic.php?f=24&t=32799

You might also go over to the PZI forum and check out other's spreadsheets to see how they are dosing. viewforum.php?f=24
 
Hi Megan! Is it possible to set up a spreadsheet with his numbers? That will help people be able to give you solid dosing advice. There is a template over on the Tech forum, and there are people around who can help if it doesn't make sense or you have problems.

Generally with PZI they do best if the AM & PM doses are the same. Curious why yours are different? There are a few cats who seem to do better that way, but it makes it a lot harder to interpret the data, so it's usually easier to at least start with the same dose AM & PM.

Also I'm wondering if you tried the m/d canned? I think that is lower carb than w/d, and if he tolerated that you might find the diabetes easier to control. If you do switch foods, you will probably need to reduce the insulin dose accordingly. Also if you can eliminate the dry altogether you may find that helps his BG stay lower - again if you make that change, I would lower your dose.

Great that you are testing and starting to see what works for him! I disagree with your vet - if a dose change is in order you definitely should make it. It's hard to know without seeing the exact timing of the BG tests, etc.

I am a fan of free-feeding, letting them eat as they like.

Feel free to stop over at the PZI forum if you want, and both there & in Health, just keep asking whatever questions you have!
 
I will attempt a spreadsheet when I can, only Internet access is my phone right now. I didn't get to check at +6 today but he has been ~150 the past few days between +5-7.

I'm not sure why she made his two doses so different? It was 4 and 2 instead of 3 and 3 but his am numbers weren't so different from pm.

W/d has been the only wet in over two years that he will eat and that he doesn't throw up. One thing the vet did try to do with previous owners is try different foods. We looked through his medical records and vet used the failed attempts as an excuse to leave him on dry. We have not tried m/d though!
 
Vinney always threw up wet food, the few times he tried, until I mixed the wet food with equal parts of water. After a few weeks of that, I gradually reduced the water to about 1part water to 3 parts food. I wondered if he just needed awhile to adjust. If absolutely stuck with dry I'd be looking at the Evo or Wellness Core which are both low carb. Maisey was on PZI, now OTJ the majority of kitties are on even doses, at least until they start needing decreases, and then by preshoot and nadir.
 
M/d is the one that is designed for diabetes, so I would buy a can or two and give it a shot! The carbs are still higher than something like Fancy Feast, but should be lower than W/d.

I would probably take the midpoint of your dose and split it, so I think that would make it 2.5u per shot? From the numbers you are describing it doesn't sound like you are at risk of low numbers so I think your dose is safe, but I'd want to see the details before advising any dose increase.

Another way we post things is like this, if the SS is hard to access:

AMPS (a.m. pre-shot) 300 2u
+3 200
+6 150
PMPS 300 2u

etc., where +n is the number of hours since you gave a shot. If you want you can post numbers like that each day, here or on the PZI forum, and that helps to give people a better idea. And of course still try to get the SS set up when you have a chance.
 
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