PZI help please!

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My kitty Morax is constantly testing in the 400s and 500s except he had 350 last night 3hrs post shot but then it went right up again. I use U40 syringes and he started on 2 units and now is up to 3 &1/2. i didnt not start testing till recently and my vet wanted me to up his dose by 1/2 yesterday. Some of the other people on the board said to maybe decrease and increase again to see if there are any changes. I am just so confused by all of this and I cant seem to get him numbers down. He just started a raw diet too so maybe that will help things. I was thinking he was resistant becuase his numbers were barely moving until last night but maybe thats the raw diet. idk. Also, i just got a new bottle of insulin so that is not it. So, any suggestions would be great.
Thanks,
kathy & Morax
 
Hi Kathy. I posted a cross post in here last night to your Health Topic:
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/view ... 28&t=33635
So I think some of us have responded in there.

The main thing right now is to get your data into a spreadsheet so we can all see it. Then we will have more specific recommendations for you. Also please note in your SS when the day was that you transitioned to 100% raw food [or low carb wet food] only. You will need to watch for a drop in insulin needs after you do that. 3.5 units is a bit of insulin, and you will need to be careful.

Do read out newbie checklist in the PZI Sticky viewtopic.php?f=24&t=32799 - it provides help as how to go about being safe. Have your "no-shoot" decided on and what actions you will take. Have your hypo kit ready too.

Has your kitty ever had keytones or DKA?

As mentioned rebound may be happening. But we really need to see your data to make a better assessment of that. Sometimes when people make the diet switch we recommend dropping back to 1u which helps on several fronts a) to be safe in case of a major reduction in insulin needs and b) helps to eliminate rebound as a cause of high numbers.

But it is only with your data that you or we can really make a good assessment of what's going on.

So please do take the time to set up your SS and profile. And follow the PZI Newbie Checklist to help you get things together.

While you are making the SS you can also make the profile and that will help us help you better too.

Do feel free to continue to post in here and ask questions. You've found the right place for help with ProZinc.
 
Here's a sample spreadsheet so you can see how much info it gives you and us, and how the color coding helps: Sample template If you have trouble setting one up, just pm me and I can help.

Here are the directions: Setting up a spreadsheet

Now that you have the food and hometesting down, the next thing is to fine tune your dose and the spreadsheet will be a great help to do that.
 
Welcome, Kathy.

We're happy you and Morax found us.

I'm fairly new here. Bud (who is a girl) and I joined at the beginning of Dec. I cannot say enough good things about all the folks here and all the good advice. They are very dedicated and willing to help you and Morax get a handle on this.

Spread sheets are very important as both Gator and Sue have said. If you can't get it working (I couldn't) just ask for help. Sue got mine going for me. So, please get it going as soon as you get the time.

It's a steep learning curve in the beginning but it does get easier. You're doing great already in doing the home testing! My DH was complaining that I was obsesed with testing Bud too often and there was some joking about an "Over testers Anonymous" group, :lol: but I really feel you cannot test too often... especially around +5 +7.

Some really good advice I've gotten and wish to pass on... BREATHE.
 
Hi Kathy and welcome,

Take a deep breath, we can help you get all set up. Ask questions when they come up.

Great news on switching to a raw diet. Gator is right about watching his bg's during the food switch because their bg's can drop 100 points over night just from the food change alone. If you started at too high of a dose you may have missed the perfect dose for Morax. Now might be the perfect time to start over at 1 unit, it will keep Morax safe from dropping bg's with food change and you can make sure it isn't rebound right away.

Start low, go slow is the motto around here. Vets usually prescribe doses based on bg levels at the clinic but the kitties are stressed at the clinic and their bg's will be higher because of it, so when they get home and relaxed the dose might be to high for them.

The Prozinc wedsite recommended starting dose is 1 unit twice a day.

Good luck with your spreadsheet. It helps us see the curve patterns.

Welcome to our group.
Robin
 
Welcome to pzi-land. I agree that it may be good to start over at 1u twice a day since morax has undergone a pretty significant diet change. It may be that you are now overdosing him. This can be easily remedied by starting over and steadily increasing the dose if he's not responding after 3-5 doses. You're up to 3u bid now, right? It's too early I think to worry about resistance. I'm pretty sure my Charlie has it, but I haven't had him tested yet. Once you get the dose high enough that'll clear on it's own anyway. Knowing they have it would really just allow you to increase the dose more aggressively. There's no pill or cure other than higher doses of insulin. You're doing great already!
 
Welcome! Like Beth and Bud, Sam and I just joined in Dec. In the few weeks we've been at this, this group has helped SO much. I went from feeling hopeless to seeing a bright, shining light at the end of the tunnel. Get your spreadsheet up and running and you'll not only be able to provide the others with the right info to help you, but you'll also finally get a sense of knowing what's going on. It's such a help! And don't be afraid to ask questions. Someone here always has an answer.
 
Thank you guys so much. I will get on the spread sheets tonight. We just got 501 2 hrs preshot and we had 440 4 hrs post shot this afternoon. So still high. Is it dangerous to go down quickly to 1 unit or should I do it slowly. sounds scarey. Also, I just tried to make my own raw food and it was a total faliure. What kind of meat grinder do I get? I would like to grind bone and all but I dont want to spend a ton so any suggestions about that would be awesome.
Thanks for your help and understanding.
Morax & Kathy
 
I'm sure you've said this already, but what kind of food are you feeding now? If you're not already feeding a low carb canned food, you should at least get switched over to that. In the meantime, I'm sure someone who knows more about the raw food stuff will swing by. I know Dr. Lisa has a website with all that info. You should be able to find links to her pages on the main section of the board under health links, I think.
 
Kathy,

I know you want to do everything that's best of Morax, but think about using canned LC for a while until things get a little more settle. As you know, it's a steep learning curve in the beginning. A few weeks on canned will be just fine for him.. and less stress on you at this point.

Bud's thriving on SophistiCats from Petsmart... and it's not expensive. I think we've got 6 varieties that are 0-4 carbs. Let me know if you want that list.
 
I have been using canned and he wasnt getting any better so now Ive moved to raw and I will buy it until I figure out how to make it.
 
I would not expect raw to help with the diabetes much more than a good low carb canned food. The only "requirement" for diabetes management is for a low carb [less than 10% as %Kcal consumed] food. But I do applaud your desire to feed/make raw.

What flavor of canned were you feeding?

I used to make my own cat food primarily to achieve a low carb, medium fat, grain free food. My kitty had more going on than just diabetes. I used a product from http://www.knowwhatyoufeed.com and their excellent website tool that can be used with cooked OR raw. I did buy a meat grinder to make raw but ended up making cooked and using my food processor. But now I grind almost all my own meat with it which I like much more than store bough ground meat. :-D

Before you actually start making your own food I suggest reading as much as you can about feline nutrition so that you can be satisfied your are feeding what you expect. There are some nutrition links in the PZI Sticky links.

http://www.holisticat.com was another resource I came across in the past. They have a forum that I was never did get into but might be a good resource.

If you do raw - there are two approaches - raw with bones or raw with supplements. For a couple reasons I fall in the raw with supplements camp but others have have good success with the raw with bones and believe in that approach.

Anyway, from a purely diabetes perspective you should be able to achieve what you need though canned food [as long as it is an appropriate low carb food].

I'd really like to see your data and verify with you info about the health/health history of your kitty and make sure there are no other issues going on that might be a problem with the numbers. Hopefully we can get that data into a spreadsheet really soon so we can work on that and then the other issues which you could help by creating a "profile" at the same time. :smile:
 
Nice job getting your ss up and running! That'll make it easier for you and the rest of us to watch Morax's progress. The only suggestion I would have about it is to use "3.5" instead of "3 1/2". That'll make it easier if you ever decide to use u100 syringes and start using microdoses. Plus, it'll look cleaner and easier to read in the ss.
 
Your spreadsheet looks good. I would encourage you to get some around +6 numbers so you can see how low he is going in the middle of the cycle. Also, it would be very helpful to get a curve in sometime soon - tests every 2 hours during a day.

Wait and get more opinions, but this is what I am thinking. You have 2 choices: go higher or go lower.

You can go back to 1 unit twice daily to see if you were over his ideal dose from the beginning. If you do that, test religously for ketones and only hold that dose for a few days if you see no movement.

If you go higher, I would do .25 units increase at a time, testing for ketones daily and holding that dose for a few days before you increase again. It is possible you have a high dose kitty - only experimenting will tell you that.

Regardless of what you do, plan to put aside some time and get lots of tests in so you have data and can see what is happening. It would be nice if there was a simple answer for you, but you are running up against that "every cat is different" thing.
 
AMPS - means whatever his morning (AM) preshot (PS) bg (blood glucose) test was. You always want to test before a shot.
U@9 - means how many units or what dose was administered at 9 - most people are on a 9 am 9 pm dosing routine
+1, +2, +3, etc - those mean plus one hour, plus two hours, and so on. If you give the first shot at 9 am, then +1 is 10 am, +2 is 11 am and so on. The +2 is nice to get because that's when the insulin really kicks in and the +6 is good to get because that's typically the nadir or peak (lowest point) of that cycle's (12 hour period) insulin
PMPS - means whatever his evening (PM) preshot (PS) bg (blood glucose) test was.
COLORS - the colors coordinate to the bg numbers. You might hear people talk about being in the blues or some such thing.

Does that make sense? The first time I looked at that SS, I thought it was written in another language, and now, oddly enough, I speak it. :lol:
 
Yes it is safe to drop back to 1 unit right away.

3 units is a very high starting dose. Your high numbers could be that he's getting too much insulin or not enough insulin.

Before raising the dose I would err on the side of caution and drop back to 1 unit and make sure you didn't miss the perfect dose, if you don't see better numbers on a lower dose you can raise the dose back up more quickly.
 
He didnt start at 3 thats just when I got to testing his glucose. Took me a while :(. So I am thinking about cutting his dose tonight. If anyone has the time to look over Morax's SS, I would love your opinion and as many opinions as I can get. It just seems very wierd that his highest numbers were when they should be the lowest. I am thinking I will cut the dose in half and test him through the night.
 
Those numbers seem crazy to me. I can only guess that they're from too much insulin. I'm sure one of the more experienced members will be by soon to give you a better read on them.
 
An inverse curve, when the lowest numbers are the highest numbers, is a sign of too much insulin.

Dropping to half the dose will work too.
 
Welcome! Don't feel bad that it took you a while to start testing. I can relate....I had Klinger up to 7.5u and was only testing on the weekends and that wasn't even pre-shot. YIKES! It's great that you found this site early on. I would go back to 1u and see how Morax does. Keep in mind that if Morax has been getting too much insulin, his body may need a day or two to "clear" from the bounce.

Please keep asking questions.
 
Hi Kathy, glad you are posting on PZI. Congratulations on home testing! Lots of people never do it---your kitty is in good hands. I have a question about your spread sheet. Are you not doing preshots? or just not posting them? Or am I reading it wrong? The preshot (amps--the morning preshot, and pmps --the evening preshot) should be within about 15 minutes prior to giving insulin. This is so you know you are not overdosing your cat (if you have a very low preshot BG you might not shoot at all).
 
I know I should, i will do it. My boyfriend does the shot in the morning and he doesnt know how to take the glucose but im gunna start doing it. im trying.
 
You're doing a great job! DH and I used to tag team Klinger. One of us would do the poke and the other was ready with the meter. We used to be so nervous. Now we both test him on our own. It's turned into a great bonding experience with Klinger.
Where are you giving him his shot? scruff or flank? Is your boyfriend giving it to Morax in the same location?
 
I give it to him in the scruff and so does he. I have read some things about that being a bad spot and I asked my vet and she said it was fine. Plus Im not so sure how to do it anywhere else but I would be willing to try. I reduced his shot to 1.75 tonight. We will see.
 
my vet was not very happy with me though. I called her to tell her what I did (she wasnt there yesterday) and she was like 328 isnt very good and I was like thats better than almost 600. I had to convince her to even say that I could give him 2 units, she wanted me to go back up to 3 tonight. I think I need a new one. If anyone know where I should go in Columbus, Ohio, i would love a vet that would be more willing to work with me. I am thinking the Ohio State University Vet Clinic.
 
You might post on Health and Community and ask if anyone knows a good vet near you. You can also call before the appointment and ask questions - Do they think hometesting is a good idea? What kind of food do they suggest for a diabetic cat? What kinds of insulin do they prescribe?

It would be nice if your vet would celebrate the first number out of the 400-600 range .........
 
If your vet can't be happy with such an improvement, then I definitely think it's time to get a new one. And honestly, I know it seems scary, but you can do this without a vet for the most part. I haven't yet told my vet that Sam's dose has been cut in half (and may go lower tonight), although I will at some point. I just don't see the need to involve her when things are going so well. The people on this board are extremely knowledgeable and I trust their help since many of them have had more than one sugarcat and years of experience. Don't feel bad about switching either. You're doing what's right for your cat and there's comfort to be had in that.
 
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