My cat was diagnosed with diabetes 2.5 weeks ago. My vet prescribed Prozinc. His numbers just will not go down. I have changed his diet to high protein/low carb. The vet now wants me to give him 4 units of Prozinc twice a day. That seems like so much to me. He is 14. I don't see many people talk about Prozinc. Is Lantus better? Someone even mentioned Humulin which is a human insulin. I am freaking out over his numbers, and they just don't seem to come down.
ProZinc
- Thread starter dillond
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MaryB & Chester
Member Since 2012
There's a whole forum of people who use ProZinc. They might be better able to help you.
From what I hear, Prozinc can be a good insulin.
From what I hear, Prozinc can be a good insulin.
Deb & Wink
Member Since 2013
Prozinc is better than Humulin N. Those N type insulins kick in fast, do a steep drop, kick back up fast and are usually gone by 5-6 hours when used in a cat. If you can test a lot, dose every 6 hours or so, then the Humulin might work for you. The only positive point it has going for it is that the Humulin N is cheap. Cats must feel awful that are using the N. I wouldn't want to try it for my cat.
That 4U your vet suggests seems like a big jump to me.
People will want to look at your spreadsheet to see what the test numbers are showing for the BG's. Here are the instructions for setting up a Google spreadsheet and linking it into your signature so others can view it. http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=18207 There are folks that can help you set this spreadsheet up if you need the help. Just ask.
Have you found the PZI user group? They are under Insulin Support Groups, PZI. I'd suggest you go over there to post and ask your questions on the dose.
That 4U your vet suggests seems like a big jump to me.
People will want to look at your spreadsheet to see what the test numbers are showing for the BG's. Here are the instructions for setting up a Google spreadsheet and linking it into your signature so others can view it. http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=18207 There are folks that can help you set this spreadsheet up if you need the help. Just ask.
Have you found the PZI user group? They are under Insulin Support Groups, PZI. I'd suggest you go over there to post and ask your questions on the dose.
BJM
Member Since 2010
Wendy&Tiggy(GA)
Member Since 2011
are you home testing? Can we see some readings? that will help us be able to see whats going on..
I am not home testing. I don't seem to be able to do it. I tried 3 times and failed. He cries and gets out of my arms. I can't hold him. The last time I tried, I hurt him. So, I gave up. I am a failure at this. So, I take him to the vet all the time for blood test and curves. He consistently comes in at 400-500, even though he was on 3 units twice a day. He has now been upped to 4 units twice a day. I don't see anyone else on this forum giving that much. His diet is probably part of the problem. He is such a picky eater. I have tried everything. He will go 1.5 days without eating if I don't give him what he wants. He nibbles at the Fancy Feast cans. He loves the Royal Canin Diabetic dry food. I know that isn't what he should have, but at least he eats that. It does seem to be high protein and low carbs, so I am not sure why it isn't good for him. I just don't know what to do.
terriy
Member Since 2011
Don't give up. It just takes time. We all thought we could not do it at first! One thing that helped me a lot was watching videos on youtube of others taking the blood. I watched them over and over and I will tell you the cats in the videos are so calm and take it so well that I did not think that my cat would ever be like that! But she is and yours will be also. Just dont give up. His numbers will always be high at the vet because it stresses them out! Everyone here will walk you through it every step of the way! I was taught by everyone here and by watching the videos. Its just one tiny babystep at a time. First you have to find some treats he likes - try cooking him some chicken - I dont know any cat that turns down chicken! You can get chicken at the market on sale and then cook it as needed. I cook a package at a time and put it in the fridge. My cat dont like it cold so I heat it a little bit first. Try that and see - I find it to be cheaper than buying store bought treats also. Thats first - get treats and food he likes - keep posting and more experienced folks will be happy to help you!
Welcome and dont give up!!
Welcome and dont give up!!
Sue and Oliver (GA)
Member Since 2009
Do you want to give us your city and state? Maybe we have someone nearby who could help with the testing. It helps alot to see someone else do it or have someone watch you. for now, you might start over. Go to the same place several times a day, play with his ears and give him a treat. PureBites and Bonito flakes are two low carb types. After a few times, add the rice sack, warm his ears, praise and treat. When he gets used to that, add the clicker but just for the noise. Then add the poke as he settles down to the process. Vital in the beginning is a good solid poke with a large gauge lancet (25-27 gauge), a warm ear and hitting the sweet spot - the capillaries along the edge of the ear (look with a flashlight to see where you are aimong)
Have you read this site by a vet? She really has worked with some hard core dry food lovers to transistion them to wet: http://www.catinfo.org. One of the things she likes to try is FortiFlora. It is the animal digest they use to make dry food so enticing - you sprinkle it on the wet. You can get it on line and from the vet, sometimes from PetSmart vets. Another method that sometimes works is to mix the dry with wet, slowing increasing the wet and decreasing the dry. It is a process and may take a while but keep trying.
This isn't easy. Lots of us took a long time to get the testing down. Lots of cats took months to eat wet. But it is worth it - he is on a larger dose than we usually see, probably mostly due to the dry.
Have you read this site by a vet? She really has worked with some hard core dry food lovers to transistion them to wet: http://www.catinfo.org. One of the things she likes to try is FortiFlora. It is the animal digest they use to make dry food so enticing - you sprinkle it on the wet. You can get it on line and from the vet, sometimes from PetSmart vets. Another method that sometimes works is to mix the dry with wet, slowing increasing the wet and decreasing the dry. It is a process and may take a while but keep trying.
This isn't easy. Lots of us took a long time to get the testing down. Lots of cats took months to eat wet. But it is worth it - he is on a larger dose than we usually see, probably mostly due to the dry.
C
Carl & Polly & Bob (GA)
You may not see anyone currently on a dose as high as four units, but there have been a few in the two years I have posted here. My cat, Bob, topped out at four units, twice a day. Others have been higher. What concerns me more is how quickly your vet has upped to that level. When you mentioned his numbers from the vet, were all the numbers that high throughout the curve, with no lower numbers a few hours after the shot?
We need to help you make him a fan of lower carb food, even if it's dry.
We need to help you make him a fan of lower carb food, even if it's dry.
Sue and Oliver (GA) said:
I am in Sarasota, Florida. I also read the info that you mentioned from the vet. It was really helpful. I am struggling so hard, because I have an obese cat, and a diabetic cat. I am trying to get the diabetic cat to eat, and the obese one not to eat so much. AAARRRGGGGHHH! The website you mentioned had some pointers for me to try.
Wendy&Tiggy(GA)
Member Since 2011
Here are a ton of testing tips..
https://docs.google.com/document/d/13c_CPZVKz27fD_6aVbsguadJKvjSrSAkD7flgPPhEag/pub
However I dont pick my boys up. I find them where they are and I go over and do it then. But start slow, for now just go over where he is and rub his ears. Then give him a treat. Get him used to that part first.
Wendy
https://docs.google.com/document/d/13c_CPZVKz27fD_6aVbsguadJKvjSrSAkD7flgPPhEag/pub
However I dont pick my boys up. I find them where they are and I go over and do it then. But start slow, for now just go over where he is and rub his ears. Then give him a treat. Get him used to that part first.
Wendy
C
Carl & Polly & Bob (GA)
Excellent tip! At first, it's all about bribery. "You want a treat? I need some blood first". But starting by associating the treat with some "new ritual" is a good idea. If he learns that a treat comes from something as simple as getting his ears rubbed and getting extra attention, you can ease your way into testing with a sharp pointy object ;-)
It's really hard to imagine, but it gets to a point where kitty is reminding you that test time is coming up. Bob associates the meter with shrimp. For him, a shrimp is worth twenty drops of blood at least. If I gave him two shrimp? He probably let me have the tip of his ear :lol:
But after almost two years off insulin, if I take the meter out of the drawer, Bob is right there, laying down and purring waiting for his shrimp. I think he really gets bummed out when he figures out I'm just taking the meter out to look for something else in the drawer
Deb & Wink
Member Since 2013
Well, I hope Bob still gets a shrimp or two now and then. ;-)I think he really gets bummed out when he figures out I'm just taking the meter out to look for something else in the drawer
Wendy&Tiggy(GA)
Member Since 2011
Maybe you need to put some special treats in that drawer Carl.
I wanted to offer you some hope. My cat Ferdinand who is also on PZI was a hard core dry food addict. I purchased the 58.00 bag of Science Hill M/D for diabetic cats and he loved it! However we were consistently seeing numbers in 400-500 range!! So I began a very slow transition to wet food, mixing in his dry with it. Over a period of time I eliminated the dry and now he eats only canned! It really has helped his numbers. So don't give up! You can get him to eat wet cat food!
Also I know it is hard to test. Have you seen this video? It is helpful. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXyrKSJTlYA
Also I know it is hard to test. Have you seen this video? It is helpful. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXyrKSJTlYA
LynnLee + Mousie
Member Since 2009
I may know someone in Sarasota, not 100% sure if that's where she is but i'll send her a message pointing her here just in case. Her name is Pat if you see her post, been a member for quite a while here
Meowluv said:
I did watch the video, thanks. If my guy would sit at sweetly as the boy in the video, I would have it made.
My boy ate a little bit of wet food this morning. I tried the Weruva. It is not one of the ones my vet wanted me to use, but the lady at the Holistic pet store said that it was pretty good.
Carl & Bob said:
Excellent tip! At first, it's all about bribery. "You want a treat? I need some blood first". But starting by associating the treat with some "new ritual" is a good idea. If he learns that a treat comes from something as simple as getting his ears rubbed and getting extra attention, you can ease your way into testing with a sharp pointy object ;-)
It's really hard to imagine, but it gets to a point where kitty is reminding you that test time is coming up. Bob associates the meter with shrimp. For him, a shrimp is worth twenty drops of blood at least. If I gave him two shrimp? He probably let me have the tip of his ear :lol:
But after almost two years off insulin, if I take the meter out of the drawer, Bob is right there, laying down and purring waiting for his shrimp. I think he really gets bummed out when he figures out I'm just taking the meter out to look for something else in the drawer
Do you use real shrimp? I have tried all kinds of treats, even real chicken. My boy is not interested. He might like shrimp though. Do you cook it? Do you peel it? Do you cut it up? I am a vegetarian myself, I am not sure what to do with a real shrimp????
dillond said:
4 PM: I am thrilled. He ate almost a whole (3 oz) can of wet food for dinner. On the porch licking his lips now. Yippee!!! So, when do I know that it is OK to take the dry food away? How will I know he is getting enough food? I do have 4 other cats. I feed Coffee (my sugar baby) by himself in the bathroom, but the others can sneak in.
C
Carl & Polly & Bob (GA)
Yes, absolutely. Fresh shrimp caught that day. I live on an island about 2 miles or less from a shrimp boat dock. What I did was buy a pound of large or jumbo shrimp, put six or so in ziplock freezer bags, and defrosted a bag every couple of days.
Just boil them in water for three minutes, and then I'd run cold water over them to cool them off. Not 2.5 minutes or 3.5 minutes. 3 minutes seems to be the magic number. You can tell they are done when they turn to a nice shade of orange. Then peel them (otherwise they cook too fast without the shell on them, and get tougher). I just cut a shrimp into bite size pieces and Bob got a whole shrimp after each test. Here they cost between $7-$9 per pound depending on size and season. The rest of the half dozen got cut up too and I just stored them in small tupperware containers for the next day or two.
Then I'd also buy a pound for me, add a bit of Old Bay seasoning to my pot of boiling water, and munch them all! :lol: Bob wasn't a big fan of that routine. ;-)
And if you REALLY want a treat, melt some chocolate, make dark chocolate fondue, and dip the shrimp in it. That gave me an excuse...."nope, sorry Bob, kitties can't eat chocolate!"
Deb & Wink
Member Since 2013
How often are you home testing? What is his current Prozinc dose?
When you are switching from dry food to wet, it is important to be home testing. You need to test before every shot. We call this the pre-shot test. One in the AM , AMPS. One in the PM, PMPS. This is so we know your cats BG is not too low to give the insulin. We have a starting shoot/no shoot threshold of 200 for new members.
The change to wet food, can suddenly drop the BG numbers. It does not even need to be a complete switch over to wet food.
I was slowly transitioning my diabetic cat Wink to low carb wet food from dry. I was cutting back on the insulin at the same time. I did not cut back the insulin quickly enough and he hypoed. Repeatedly. I was monitoring all day, all night, supporting with karo syrup and high carb (HC) food. I was lucky he pulled through. I call him my cast iron kitty.
If I knew then, what I know now, I would have cut the insulin dose in half, maybe more. The only sign of hypoglycemia he showed was dilated pupils that did not react to light. I was not informed enough and did some stupid things. Please don't repeat what I did.
'Better too high for a day, than too low for a minute.'
When you are switching from dry food to wet, it is important to be home testing. You need to test before every shot. We call this the pre-shot test. One in the AM , AMPS. One in the PM, PMPS. This is so we know your cats BG is not too low to give the insulin. We have a starting shoot/no shoot threshold of 200 for new members.
The change to wet food, can suddenly drop the BG numbers. It does not even need to be a complete switch over to wet food.
I was slowly transitioning my diabetic cat Wink to low carb wet food from dry. I was cutting back on the insulin at the same time. I did not cut back the insulin quickly enough and he hypoed. Repeatedly. I was monitoring all day, all night, supporting with karo syrup and high carb (HC) food. I was lucky he pulled through. I call him my cast iron kitty.
If I knew then, what I know now, I would have cut the insulin dose in half, maybe more. The only sign of hypoglycemia he showed was dilated pupils that did not react to light. I was not informed enough and did some stupid things. Please don't repeat what I did.
'Better too high for a day, than too low for a minute.'
C
Carl & Polly & Bob (GA)
It's pretty much all about how many calories he consumes. The "calories per can" data is on Dr. Lisa's food chart to the far right.
When a cat is at an ideal weight, without diabetes, it takes about 15-20 calories per pound of ideal body weight in order to maintain that weight. Every cat is different, and some of it has to do with how active they are and how fast or slowly they burn the calories.
But with a diabetic cat, especially at first, they need more calories than "normal" because they don't metabolize the food at 100% efficiency.
So, what does Coffee weigh now? And is he overweight, underweight? That can at least give you a ballpark number of calories he might need per day.
Pre-diabetes, Bob weighed 22 pounds. Quite the little porker
The day he was diagnosed, he was 12 pounds. I thought he was looking pretty good but apparently he wasn't doing well at all. My goal, per my vet, once he started treatment was to get him back up to 14 pounds. When he was on insulin, I tried to feed him about 250 calories a day. It worked, and he added 2 to 2.5 pounds. Since then, he's maintained that weight on 250 calories or so per day.
Wendy&Tiggy(GA)
Member Since 2011
Personally I would transition them all to wet. Means you dont need to worry about Coffee getting into their food - or them developing diabetes too..
But you need to be home testing first like Deb said..
But you need to be home testing first like Deb said..
LynnLee + Mousie
Member Since 2009
:-( Pat got back to me. Unfortunately she's a couple hours away. i'll keep thinking though
Carl & Bob said:
No offense....that sounds absolutely AWFUL to me! I think it should be against the law to mess up chocolate like that!!!! I once was served a dish that I thought was vegetarian and it wasn't. It was an entire fish with eyeballs and everything. After I fainted, they gave me some rice and beans. I will definitely try your recipe for my boy. I have been trying everything, so I will try that shrimp. Thank you so much!
C
Carl & Polly & Bob (GA)
Ok, but for him, just plain water. No seasoning, and no chocolate 
And really, it does sound gross, but it isn't. A few of us were sitting around one night after picking fresh strawberries, and dipping them in a huge bowl of chocolate fondue. After a couple of adult beverages, this thought came to me....
My two favorite things to eat, taste-wise are dark chocolate, and boiled shrimp. And I got a brainstorm, like Mr. Reese must have had when he dreamed up peanut butter cups.... how could they possibly NOT taste good together? Next day I bought some shrimp, reheated the fondue, and voila! A southern delicacy on the level of the "praline" was born :lol:
And really, it does sound gross, but it isn't. A few of us were sitting around one night after picking fresh strawberries, and dipping them in a huge bowl of chocolate fondue. After a couple of adult beverages, this thought came to me....
My two favorite things to eat, taste-wise are dark chocolate, and boiled shrimp. And I got a brainstorm, like Mr. Reese must have had when he dreamed up peanut butter cups.... how could they possibly NOT taste good together? Next day I bought some shrimp, reheated the fondue, and voila! A southern delicacy on the level of the "praline" was born :lol:
Carl & Bob said:
It's pretty much all about how many calories he consumes. The "calories per can" data is on Dr. Lisa's food chart to the far right.
When a cat is at an ideal weight, without diabetes, it takes about 15-20 calories per pound of ideal body weight in order to maintain that weight. Every cat is different, and some of it has to do with how active they are and how fast or slowly they burn the calories.
But with a diabetic cat, especially at first, they need more calories than "normal" because they don't metabolize the food at 100% efficiency.
So, what does Coffee weigh now? And is he overweight, underweight? That can at least give you a ballpark number of calories he might need per day.
Pre-diabetes, Bob weighed 22 pounds. Quite the little porker
Coffee was a big boy, 22 pounds. He was getting older, and I thought that was why he was losing weight. They were always after me to put him on a diet, so I was happy he was losing weight. The day he was diagnosed, he was 14 pounds. He has now put .5 of a pound back on. The vet is happy with his weight, but not his numbers.
Wendy&Tiggy said:
I think you are so right. I have 2 girls that are normal weight, but another boy that is 22 pounds. I would like to see them all on the wet food. My 22 pounder is a mountain lion, I dread the idea of having to give him insulin. He is such a bad boy, the vet techs hide when he has to come in. Even though I am having a hard time testing Coffee, at least he is sweet and mellow and easy to give insulin to.
Deb & Wink
Member Since 2013
We have a great standardized spreadsheet where you can track the numbers, insulin dosage and other information.
Directions here in this link: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=18207
If you have problems with the setup, there are people here that can help you with that. Give us a shout out and we'll find somebody to help you with this.
Once it's set up and linked into your signature, we'll take a look at it and see if we can suggest some changes. Maybe the dose is too high. Maybe the dose is too low. Maybe you need a test at a different time to see how your cat is reacting to the insulin.
Directions here in this link: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=18207
If you have problems with the setup, there are people here that can help you with that. Give us a shout out and we'll find somebody to help you with this.
Once it's set up and linked into your signature, we'll take a look at it and see if we can suggest some changes. Maybe the dose is too high. Maybe the dose is too low. Maybe you need a test at a different time to see how your cat is reacting to the insulin.
Wendy&Tiggy(GA)
Member Since 2011
I didnt have any luck either sorry....
Deb & Wink
Member Since 2013
Dillond, If you could describe the problem you are having, we will pass that information on to someone. Member Marje and Gracie are really good at getting the SS set up and linked for you.
ETA: I've sent Marje a PM on your behalf.
ETA: I've sent Marje a PM on your behalf.
Wendy&Tiggy(GA)
Member Since 2011
Hows the ear rubbing coming along?
Also when you tried before to test, did you use the lancets free hand or the device?
Also when you tried before to test, did you use the lancets free hand or the device?
Wendy&Tiggy said:
I am not sure what I used. My father was a diabetic. I used the testing thing that he had. Or, I should say I tried to use it. Is there something easier to use? I watched the You Tube video, it looked like the same thing I tried to use. But, on the video, the cat sits on the guy's lap so quietly. Maybe my cat needs to be on Prozac.....or maybe I need to be on it??? :lol:
Wendy&Tiggy(GA)
Member Since 2011
Do you put the thing against the ear and press a button? If so its a lancing device. If you just are using a small plastic thing with a metal spike on the end then its the lancet.
Honesty I would try waiting till he is in a comfy spot then going over and stroking his ears. Then give a treat. Repeat often for a few days.. Get him used to it first.
Honesty I would try waiting till he is in a comfy spot then going over and stroking his ears. Then give a treat. Repeat often for a few days.. Get him used to it first.
Wendy&Tiggy(GA)
Member Since 2011
He might be able to tell if you get stressed and your breathing changes. Practice will make it easier. Maybe next rub his ears and hold them a second, then rub. Then get teh lancet and make like you are going to do it, but don't. Then put the lancet to the ear but dont press in...Work up to it.
When you use the lancet, do you have something behind the ear to press against?
Wendy
When you use the lancet, do you have something behind the ear to press against?
Wendy
Deb & Wink
Member Since 2013
I use a piece of tissue folded into a small square about the size of the ear. Cotton balls work. Some people use the lid of a pill bottle. Some people use a small flashlight to poke against. If the flashlight is turned on, this can help you to see the vein and the capillary area you are aiming for with your poke.
Hold your item firmly against the back of the ear to give your self a firm surface to poke against.
How is the ear warming with the rice sock going? Does that get the blood flowing nicely?
Hold your item firmly against the back of the ear to give your self a firm surface to poke against.
How is the ear warming with the rice sock going? Does that get the blood flowing nicely?
Wendy&Tiggy(GA)
Member Since 2011
You are giving treats afterward right? Or maybe some catnip?
Deb & Wink
Member Since 2013
My Wink never liked the rice sock or the pill bottle with warm water, or the washcloth with hot water poured over it and put inside a plastic bag. What did work for me was to rub his ears vigorously. He loved that!
Sometimes, I felt like I was mangling the ears I was rubbing them so vigorously but he never complained. The whole idea is to get the blood flowing strongly. You should be able to see the vein standing up a bit if the ear is warm enough. And my aging eyes need really bright.
I clipped a reading lamp to the towel bar in my bathroom and that became our testing spot. After about a week, I'd turn on that light, and Wink would walk right over to that spot to be tested. Of course, what he was really waiting for was his treat. He knew he would get a treat or two in exhange for letting me test him. ;-) He'll dojust about anything for Halo Liv-a-Little freeze dried chicken treats.
One other thing I did when I was first starting home testing with Wink was to shave a tiny patch of fur on his ear with a safety razor. Use a very light touch, barely running it over the ear.. His long black fur and dark ears made the blood drop so difficult to see. It still does but since I only need to test once a week with him OTJ, I let it grow back.
Also,a tiny dab of vaseline AFTER the ear rubbing, heating but before the actual prick can help the blood to bead up and not soak into the fur. If you put the vaseline on before the ear rubbing,it makes a real mess. ohmygod_smile
Worst case, if it's an emergency and you absolutely have to get blood, aim for the vein. Be prepared for a very large blood drop and have a tissue or cotton ball to soak up the excess and put pressure on the ear for 15-25 seconds to stem the blood.
I swear, the pressure on the ear was the part that Wink hated the most. ohmygod_smile
Sometimes, I felt like I was mangling the ears I was rubbing them so vigorously but he never complained. The whole idea is to get the blood flowing strongly. You should be able to see the vein standing up a bit if the ear is warm enough. And my aging eyes need really bright.
I clipped a reading lamp to the towel bar in my bathroom and that became our testing spot. After about a week, I'd turn on that light, and Wink would walk right over to that spot to be tested. Of course, what he was really waiting for was his treat. He knew he would get a treat or two in exhange for letting me test him. ;-) He'll dojust about anything for Halo Liv-a-Little freeze dried chicken treats.
One other thing I did when I was first starting home testing with Wink was to shave a tiny patch of fur on his ear with a safety razor. Use a very light touch, barely running it over the ear.. His long black fur and dark ears made the blood drop so difficult to see. It still does but since I only need to test once a week with him OTJ, I let it grow back.
Also,a tiny dab of vaseline AFTER the ear rubbing, heating but before the actual prick can help the blood to bead up and not soak into the fur. If you put the vaseline on before the ear rubbing,it makes a real mess. ohmygod_smile
Worst case, if it's an emergency and you absolutely have to get blood, aim for the vein. Be prepared for a very large blood drop and have a tissue or cotton ball to soak up the excess and put pressure on the ear for 15-25 seconds to stem the blood.
I swear, the pressure on the ear was the part that Wink hated the most. ohmygod_smile
Here's a video for more difficult to test cats:
[youtube]kXyrKSJTlYA[/youtube]
[youtube]kXyrKSJTlYA[/youtube]
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