? Prozinc vs Lantus

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Shasta’s dad

Member Since 2021
We’re trying to figure out if we should approach the vet about a change in insulin. Shasta was diagnosed in early July and while he has made some gains we are nowhere near the levels we are aiming for. We’ve seen some nice mid to high 100’s recently but we’ve also seen regular jumps into the 400s and even 500/ using a Relion meter. For every high 100 we see in the AM we see a low to mid 300 or higher later in the day. We are on a full wet diet (FF and Friskees pate) with feeding taking place right after PS and +3. Shasta’s water intake is down as is the soaked litter box. We also have him on 4000 mg of B12 w Methylcobalamin that is given 1000mg at each of the 4 feedings. He continues to lose weight but we’re feeding him as much as he cares to eat. Some days it is an ounce or so more but never anything more than that so I don’t believe that is causing the jumps.

I’m curious if anyone else has made that transition and how Lantus may act different that Prozinc? We’re comfortable with the Prozinc we just feel we need to see some lower levels. Thanks!
 
Sorry no one has gotten back to you sooner.

The biggest difference between Prozinc and Lantus resides in their pharmacology. Lantus is a depot-type of insulin. Depot medications release more slowly -- sometimes not requiring another injection for up to a month, although this is not the case with Lantus. When you inject Lantus, it forms microcrystals that are deposited into the fat tissue. Most of these crystals slowly dissolve over the 12-hour cycle but some do not, creating carryover from one dose into the next cycle. The action of the depot is what gives Lantus its long duration and ultimately, its flat cycles.

The action of the depot also makes Lantus an insulin that works best with consistency. It initially takes the depot about 5 - 7 days to form/stabilize. Thereafter, any time you make a dose change, you need to allow the depot to re-stabilize. Because Prozinc doesn't have a depot, there is no issue with making a dose change based on the pre-shot number if you need to do so. With Lantus, back-to-back changes in dose typically yield wonky numbers due to the depot not having the opportunity to catch up with the changes in the dose. In addition, perhaps more than any other insulin (except Levemir), Lantus dose changes are based on the nadir. This also means it's important to get spot checks as well as pre-shot tests. If you follow the Tight Regulation Protocol, you hold doses for 3 days before evaluating the effectiveness of the dose unless a dose reduction is indicated. If following Start Low Go Slow, you hold the dose for a week.

Not only is consistency with regard to dose important, consistency with respect to time is also a consideration. You have more flexibility with shot time with Prozinc. Lantus does best if you shoot as close to every 12 hours as possible. Again, this is due to the depot. An early shot acts like a dose increase whereas a late shot acts like a dose reduction.

In looking at Shasta's spreadsheet, I think you are seeing some bouncing. Bounces occur regardless of the insulin so you're as likely to see it with Lantus as with Prozinc. When Shasta's numbers drop closer to normal range, her liver and pancreas go into panic mode because she's no longer used to being in normal BG numbers. When this happens, a stored form of glucose is released along with counterregulatory hormones and they cause the upward spike in numbers. It can take up to at least 3 days for the bounce to clear. Shasta's AM cycle on 10/9 is a good example of a bounce.

What's not entirely clear to me is whether or not your getting the kind of duration you want from Prozinc. There's not a consistent pattern of numbers rising a lot at the end of the cycle. It may be a matter of not hanging on to doses quite as long. On the other hand, some cats just do better on a different insulin.

I'm likewise tagging @JanetNJ since she's more experienced with Prozinc than I am and she can weigh in on whether it would make sense to stick with Prozinc vs making a switch.
 
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Sorry no one has gotten back to you sooner.

The biggest difference between Prozinc and Lantus resides in their pharmacology. Lantus is a depot-type of insulin. Depot medications release more slowly -- sometimes not requiring another injection for up to a month, although this is not the case with Lantus. When you inject Lantus, it forms microcrystals that are deposited into the fat tissue. Most of these crystals slowly dissolve over the 12-hour cycle but some do not creating carryover from one dose into the next cycle. The action of the depot is what gives Lantus its long duration and ultimately, its flat cycles.

The action of the depot also makes Lantus an insulin that works best with consistency. It initially takes the depot about 5 - 7 days to form/stabilize. Thereafter, any time you make a dose change, you need to allow the depot to re-stabilize. Because Prozinc doesn't have a depot, there is no issue with making a dose change based on the pre-shot number if you need to do so. With Lantus, back-to-back changes in dose typically yield wonky numbers due to the depot not having the opportunity to catch up with the changes in the dose. In addition, perhaps more than any other insulin (except Levemir), Lantus dose changes are based on the nadir. This also means it's important to get spot checks as well as pre-shot tests. If you follow the Tight Regulation Protocol, you hold doses for 3 days before evaluating the effectiveness of the dose unless a dose reduction is indicated. If following Start Low Go Slow, you hold the dose for a week.

Not only is consistency with regard to dose important, consistency with respect to time is also a consideration. You have more flexibility with shot time with Prozinc. Lantus does best if you shoot as close to every 12 hours as possible. Again, this is due to the depot. An early shot acts like a dose increase whereas a late shot acts like a dose reduction.

In looking at Shasta's spreadsheet, I think you are seeing some bouncing. Bounces occur regardless of the insulin so you're as likely to see it with Lantus as with Prozinc. When Shasta's numbers drop closer to normal range, her liver and pancreas go into panic mode because she's no longer used to being in normal BG numbers. When this happens, a stored form of glucose is released along with counterregulatory hormones and they cause the upward spike in numbers. It can take up to at least 3 days for the bounce to clear. Shasta's AM cycle on 10/9 is a good example of a bounce.

What's not entirely clear to me is whether or not your getting the kind of duration you want from Prozinc. There's not a consistent pattern of numbers rising a lot at the end of the cycle. It may be a matter of not hanging on to doses quite as long. On the other hand, some cats just do better on a different insulin.

I'm likewise tagging @JanetNJ since she's more experienced with Prozinc than I am and she can weigh in on whether it would make sense to stick with Prozinc vs making a switch.
Totally his choice, but I will say, I just calculated the average of the last two weeks of am preshots which was 275. I compared it to the am preshots average of the two weeks prior to that and the average was 370. I’d say there’s been SIGNIFICANT improvement recently.
 
Thanks to both of you. As mentioned earlier with all my travel the jump in numbers just adds to the stress of me being gone. I appreciate your input. Are the up and down numbers normal until we get him controlled? When we get to 2.25 units it usually gets him down to or below 90. If that happens again do I go back to 2 units? Guidelines suggest a decrease at 90. But as you see when we’ve decreased in the past we just go right back to 2 or 2.25.

@Sienne and Gabby (GA)
@JanetNJ
 
We’re trying to figure out if we should approach the vet about a change in insulin. Shasta was diagnosed in early July and while he has made some gains we are nowhere near the levels we are aiming for. We’ve seen some nice mid to high 100’s recently but we’ve also seen regular jumps into the 400s and even 500/ using a Relion meter. For every high 100 we see in the AM we see a low to mid 300 or higher later in the day. We are on a full wet diet (FF and Friskees pate) with feeding taking place right after PS and +3. Shasta’s water intake is down as is the soaked litter box. We also have him on 4000 mg of B12 w Methylcobalamin that is given 1000mg at each of the 4 feedings. He continues to lose weight but we’re feeding him as much as he cares to eat. Some days it is an ounce or so more but never anything more than that so I don’t believe that is causing the jumps.

I’m curious if anyone else has made that transition and how Lantus may act different that Prozinc? We’re comfortable with the Prozinc we just feel we need to see some lower levels. Thanks!
I made the switch from Prozinc to Lantus and my cat is seeing much better/more consistent numbers on Lantus. You can check out my spreadsheet if you want…I have it labeled when I made the switches. My cat was bouncing a lot on Prozinc (would see good numbers and would then shoot up really high). He’s been a lot more steady on Lantus and is pretty consistently in blues and greens now.
 
Thanks to both of you. As mentioned earlier with all my travel the jump in numbers just adds to the stress of me being gone. I appreciate your input. Are the up and down numbers normal until we get him controlled? When we get to 2.25 units it usually gets him down to or below 90. If that happens again do I go back to 2 units? Guidelines suggest a decrease at 90. But as you see when we’ve decreased in the past we just go right back to 2 or 2.25.

@Sienne and Gabby (GA)
@JanetNJ
I like that 101. I always aimed for around 80-100 for my lows, but I didn't really follow a particular dosing method. Those high double digits are very healing. You've been at this a while.... If you feel he's not ready for a reduction then don't reduce.
 
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