ProZinc start up, still in the reds

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Tucker&Me

Tucker&Me

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I know I have to give it time. Of course I though ProZinc was my immediate fix. Tucker seems more hungry than he was on Novolin.:(
Just to clarify: Preparing the carefully handled, refrigerated ProZinc.. you turn upsidedown & right side up couple times, then roll 5-7X?? Then draw. ?
Oh, and I give portioned Mini meals 4-6X per day. Total daily: 5-9 ozs. or 2 1/2 - 3 cans FF
 
I just rolled it. You just want to mix it up as it is a suspension.

I know you are discouraged and yes, we'd like to see a change right away. But I would give it a few cycles.

If he is high and hungry, a little extra food would be okay.
 
OK. He's a sneak, as I am trying to keep him on ONE flavor FF (which he loves) as I experiment with Friskies for a couple of the Others...he wants theirs too. I can only do so much, as they won't be separated too far from one another at food time. Weird, but they want to be w/in view of each other.
Oh now look, he's sitting in testing area! He wants bonito flakes too!
 
Tucker&Me said:
I know I have to give it time. Of course I though ProZinc was my immediate fix. Tucker seems more hungry than he was on Novolin.:(
Just to clarify: Preparing the carefully handled, refrigerated ProZinc.. you turn upsidedown & right side up couple times, then roll 5-7X?? Then draw. ?
Oh, and I give portioned Mini meals 4-6X per day. Total daily: 5-9 ozs. or 2 1/2 - 3 cans FF
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ProZinc, recombinant human insulin, is the furthest removed from a cats insulin with four amino acid differences. The closest match to feline insulin available is 100% bovine protamine insulin (B-PZI) with only one amino acid difference occurring at site A18. Cats can accept this insulin better because it is much more like their own. Just an FYI for the future.
 
Interesting. Hadn't heard that. In the six years I have been on the forum, I have seen no significant difference in the way BCP works in cats versus ProZinc.
 
Jan & Katie. I have read that. I did ask for the vet to Rx & supplied him with the BCP site. He wouldn't go for it.
I am limited in a rural area as to veterinary options. However, I do intend to look.
I'm just glad to have Tucker off Novolin.
Thank you for your reply.
 
Tucker&Me said:
Jan & Katie. I have read that. I did ask for the vet to Rx & supplied him with the BCP site. He wouldn't go for it.
I am limited in a rural area as to veterinary options. However, I do intend to look.
I'm just glad to have Tucker off Novolin.
Thank you for your reply.
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I have had great results using B-PZI. Thirty day BG average is 127.
 
How long did it take to start getting decent #'s? I liked what I read about it, it was my first choice. Is it a big hassle getting it though? Or do you get it from your vet at a mark up?
I really want to try it someday, when I can get another vet.
 
We don't know what happened in that 5-7 hour. Could be it dropped and he bounced. Or he may need 1.25 units. Maybe another cycle and if the numbers aren't in a lower range, increase?

Brenda, I'd feed him a little extra while he's a little higher.
 
Tucker&Me said:
How long did it take to start getting decent #'s? I liked what I read about it, it was my first choice. Is it a big hassle getting it though? Or do you get it from your vet at a mark up?
I really want to try it someday, when I can get another vet.
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Once the transition from ProZinc to B-PZI was complete decent numbers followed and have gotten better as time goes by. Getting the insulin from Texas is not an issue, initially my vet called the RX in and a few hours later I called the pharmacy with my payment information as well as delivery address. The insulin is sent by FedEx overnight to my home. The pharmacy ships Monday-Thursday and I order refills directly from the pharmacy. I use U40 insulin and a bottle is $68.00 including shipping. I glanced at Tucker's SS and I can see why you think ProZinc isn't doing the job. Did your vet give you a scale to follow based on Tucker's numbers?
 
Sue and Oliver (GA) said:
We don't know what happened in that 5-7 hour. Could be it dropped and he bounced. Or he may need 1.25 units. Maybe another cycle and if the numbers aren't in a lower range, increase?

Brenda, I'd feed him a little extra while he's a little higher.
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I really wanted to get those values - but I had to work! I am feeding him 2Tbls at a time, maybe a pinch more. It has to be awful for him, obsessing like this, Sue.
 
Jan and Katie said:
Once the transition from ProZinc to B-PZI was complete decent numbers followed and have gotten better as time goes by. Getting the insulin from Texas is not an issue, initially my vet called the RX in and a few hours later I called the pharmacy with my payment information as well as delivery address. The insulin is sent by FedEx overnight to my home. The pharmacy ships Monday-Thursday and I order refills directly from the pharmacy. I use U40 insulin and a bottle is $68.00 including shipping. I glanced at Tucker's SS and I can see why you think ProZinc isn't doing the job. Did your vet give you a scale to follow based on Tucker's numbers?
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He just got on the ProZinc. 2 cycles. My vet isn't cooperative and doesn't believe in home testing, so no, he hasn't provided a scale or much else besides a script.
The B-PZI is sounding better all the time.
It really was what I wanted.
 
Tucker&Me said:
He just got on the ProZinc. 2 cycles. My vet isn't cooperative and doesn't believe in home testing, so no, he hasn't provided a scale or much else besides a script.
The B-PZI is sounding better all the time.
It really was what I wanted.[/QUOTE
Geez, the vet sounds like a real jerk. ProZinc was not a 12 hour insulin, at least in the beginning, for us. Shooting every 12 hours is probably part of the reason the numbers are so high. Are you feeding only wet food that is less than 10% dry carb matter?
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Are there no other vets near you you could check out?
Or maybe go further and specifically get a 2nd opinion? (Do a Google search for veterinarian near [address])
There are vet interview questions in my signature link, if you need them.
 
Give it a little time. I know it's frustrating, but you did just start this insulin. It could take a little bit to start getting better numbers. Since you are home-testing though, it can be done. You can change the dose yourself...you don't need your vet to tell you what to do. We can help you if you need it. My vet never gave me any sort of scale, I just dosed based on what I saw. It'll be fine!
 
It has only been one day on the ProZinc, Brenda. (Jan, it may be hard to see on the ss as Brenda didn't make a line to show when she changed from N.). The insulin is working because you got a drop from the 400s to 299 yesterday.

If you can be around today, you could raise the dose to 1.25. But i would do it only if you can catch a nadir today to see what is happening midcycle.

Brenda, I put in a few lines and added that you changed to ProZinc in the comments so people can see you started with N in June and just switched to ProZinc
 
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BJM said:
Are there no other vets near you you could check out?
Or maybe go further and specifically get a 2nd opinion? (Do a Google search for veterinarian near [address])
There are vet interview questions in my signature link, if you need them.
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Yes about 40 miles and 65 miles in either direction. In light of current events, there has been no time, or money to pursue. I INTEND TO DO SO. And I absolutely will be using the interview questions. I am post op, 4wks myself and managing that scheduling , Tucker's needs, household and work have me slightly off balance.
I have 2 veterinary clinics in mind. Can the questions be faxed or emailed? Would they do that w/o an OV ?
Thank you BJ
 
Sue and Oliver (GA) said:
It has only been one day on the ProZinc, Brenda. (Jan, it may be hard to see on the ss as Brenda didn't make a line to show when she changed from N.). The insulin is working because you got a drop from the 400s to 299 yesterday.

If you can be around today, you could raise the dose to 1.25. But i would do it only if you can catch a nadir today to see what is happening midcycle.

Brenda, I put in a few lines and added that you changed to ProZinc in the comments so people can see you started with N in June and just switched to ProZinc
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Thank you Sue!!!! For ALWAYS coming to our rescue!! I wish you lived NEXT DOOR. I included the switch in the tiny cell notes & my signature, but that was it. My bad. I'm becoming overwhelmed again. Dang if I didn't run out of strips at 12:30! I wish the containers were CLEAR. :banghead:
I can test no earlier than 2:30, or maybe even 3PM today. That's +4.5 or +5. ( Plus, I would be gone from 10-2:30) I dunno if I should.
 
Rachel said:
Give it a little time. I know it's frustrating, but you did just start this insulin. It could take a little bit to start getting better numbers. Since you are home-testing though, it can be done. You can change the dose yourself...you don't need your vet to tell you what to do. We can help you if you need it. My vet never gave me any sort of scale, I just dosed based on what I saw. It'll be fine!
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Thank you Rachel!! My heart hurts looking at him padding around on dropped hocks
 
Yes! I changed food immediately! (Vet didn't mention that either) Entire household, matter of fact.
As soon as I get a little more data, I'll evaluate where we stand, with help from everyone. I do wish I could catch him before that preshot spike though. just need more #s
Thanks very much
 
I know you are overwhelmed, Brenda. And no wonder with the stresses in your life.

I think worrying about switching insulin is VERY premature. Let's at least give it a couple weeks.

And Jan, I have to disagree with your comment about ProZinc not being a 12 hour insulin. It is, in the vast majority of cats. Some people do dose every 8 hours, after they have lots and lots of data. I would argue it would be very irresponsible to start dosing a new diabetic TID before ever giving BID a chance.
 
I need to calm down. Thank you Sue. Yes of course I need to give a fair chance. The glucometer is the immediate prob I have to dose and head to work by 10:30
 
Tucker&Me said:
Yes! I changed food immediately! (Vet didn't mention that either) Entire household, matter of fact.
As soon as I get a little more data, I'll evaluate where we stand, with help from everyone. I do wish I could catch him before that preshot spike though. just need more #s
Thanks very much
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Tucker&Me said:
...I am post op, 4wks myself and managing that scheduling , Tucker's needs, household and work have me slightly off balance. ...
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My apologies - I forgot about the surgery. Take care of yourself first and when you're feeling up to it, a letter or even scheduling a phone call with the prospective vets may help you decide how you want to proceed.
As you get more familiar with how ProZinc works in your cat and how to dose optimally, that may factor into your decision also.
If it turns out a good dose still doesn't last a full 12 hours, we can explore 2 other options still using ProZinc (TID or split|shift 2 hours). You're not there yet, having just started.
 
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No apology necessary, I wouldn't expect anyone as busy as yourself to remember everyone's personal profile. :)
I believe I will call the selected vets on my list, and ask the tech a few preliminary questions first, thereby eliminating the ones who don't meet my personal criteria, before expending any further time & energy via email or calls.
Thank you for providing the ProZinc options that are possible. It's so great to know there is some flexibility with it. Not much with the N.
 
That sure sounds promising! Any suggestions on pilling 3X a day??
I wonder if you lose any potency if you crush them..?
Thank you for the uplifting info, Joan
 
Hey, Brenda. Wondered how you guys were doing. Nice to see a lower amps this morning. And interesting that it is a drop from mid cycle last night. Things are looking better; hope they continue.
 
Tucker&Me said:
That sure sounds promising! Any suggestions on pilling 3X a day??
I wonder if you lose any potency if you crush them..?
Thank you for the uplifting info, Joan
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The Zobaline tablets are water soluble and I just dissolve one in wet food once a day. I don't think it has much taste at all but it will turn bright pink when wet.
 
Hi Sue! Yes! He is more alert today, (despite our awful heat index) and not as aggressively hungry. Also, he jumped up to our testing spot today.
Will wonders never cease..:p
I was pretty happy about that preshot.
Thank you for checking in, and well wishes.
PS he seems to know the injections are helping him. He is very docile for shooting. :cat::cat:
 
They start to see that they really feel better with the shots. It's a true story when we say that they bug us at testing time and they develop a close bond with us through this! You're doing awesome!!!
 
Sue and Oliver (GA) said:
:bighug:This all sounds good. Hope you've taken the time to be proud of yourself. You've done amazing things for Tucker and learned so much in just a few weeks.
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Yes! Taken all together, yesterday was outstanding. It is 5:30AM and he is @301!! AND vigorously chasing a huge moth all over the house. So so wonderful.
I could not have done ANY of it without YOU. :bighug:
Well, here I go on my new schedule..headed to Walmart at 6AM on a SATURDAY! :coffee::banghead:
Gotta start earlier now, to accommodate my patient. :cat:
 
Rachel said:
They start to see that they really feel better with the shots. It's a true story when we say that they bug us at testing time and they develop a close bond with us through this! You're doing awesome!!!
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Oh Rachel, so true. He is like the tiny battered kitten I rescued 9 yrs ago. Since he has lost more than 1/2 his weight, he is back to being my small baby again and the bonding brings tears like you wouldn't believe.
Besides the help and care that we give, I truly believe the tribulation is meant to renew our wonder of a tiny Life and the power of love
 
PS Sue, should I be getting +5,+6, and +8? All? I was thinking we were just catching nadir, and I had all 3 slots, just over a few cyles, not consecutive in a single cycle.

Please advise, guess I'm mixed up
 
You are doing fine with the tests. I just meant getting them on your spreadsheet (which you have since done). I kept pulling it up and seeing that first day thinking we weren't getting anywhere.

It depends on whether you want to push or wait. He is in much nicer numbers, no big bounces into reds. The dose is lasting long enough and your cycles are smile shaped. All good things. He could afford to drop a little. It would be nice to see yellows for pre shots and some blues in there. This will be his third day on 1.25 so you could raise the dose to 1.5 - on a day or night when you can monitor the first cycle.



My guess and it is only a guess, is that he will need to go up a bit in dose to break through. Sometimes their body gets used to the higher range and they need a little more insulin to drop down into lower ranges.

If you want to give yourself and him a break, he is in safe ranges and he might stay there awhile and eventually drop. You hold the syringe; you decide. Always, always go with your gut.
 
Hi Brenda,
It would be great if you can get pre-shot tests and at least one test somewhere in the +5 to +8 range for each cycle. You can always add more mid-cycle tests when your schedule allows.

Joan
 
Sue and Oliver (GA) said:
You are doing fine with the tests. I just meant getting them on your spreadsheet (which you have since done). I kept pulling it up and seeing that first day thinking we weren't getting anywhere.

It depends on whether you want to push or wait. He is in much nicer numbers, no big bounces into reds. The dose is lasting long enough and your cycles are smile shaped. All good things. He could afford to drop a little. It would be nice to see yellows for pre shots and some blues in there. This will be his third day on 1.25 so you could raise the dose to 1.5 - on a day or night when you can monitor the first cycle.



My guess and it is only a guess, is that he will need to go up a bit in dose to break through. Sometimes their body gets used to the higher range and they need a little more insulin to drop down into lower ranges.

If you want to give yourself and him a break, he is in safe ranges and he might stay there awhile and eventually drop. You hold the syringe; you decide. Always, always go with your gut.
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Something tells me to keep pushing, he's used to the testing and his basic demeanoe
 
Oops.contd. ...and his basic demeanor has always been stuck on stubborn. Yet, I'd like to see his body make the drop, if that makes sense?
I'll think it over for awhile, in a quieter moment.
Then I'll go with my gut. :)
 
:joyful: Sounds great. If you decide to go up, be sure it's on a cycle where you can keep a eye on him. I woudn' think anything drastic would happen, but he is a cat.
 
Sue and Oliver (GA) said:
:joyful: Sounds great. If you decide to go up, be sure it's on a cycle where you can keep a eye on him. I woudn' think anything drastic would happen, but he is a cat.
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Sue, I think I did something wrong. I tested him right before leaving for work at +7 (5pm) and as you can see, he was 129. I was startled and gave him a little M/D kibble real quick and some of his FF. I couldn't test and had to leave for work!!
Is that too low? I just tested after arriving home, and of course he is high 419!
 
He is keeping you on your toes. 129 at +7 is a good number. It is just scary to see good numbers late in the cycle because you haven't seem them before. It was probably a very nice cycle; he might have been lower at +5/6.

So next time, no kibble. Remember, we don't get nervous until we see 50 and below. If you get nervous, just give him regular food as a snack.

No harm done. He bounced from a lower number than he is used to and the kibble probably brought up his pmps too. I'd stick with the one unit. It may take a cycle or two to get him back on track, but it looks like he'd rather stay at one unit than go up.

He's doing great and reacting well to the ProZinc. It just took a couple days for his body to start using it efficiently.
 
you mean "go back" to one unit right? I've been giving 1.25
Poor baby I messed him up!
I will read over the ProZinc protocol again & again to commit to memory.
I didn't truly know, so I erred on the side of caution.
Shouldn't I still do a PMPS too?
 
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