Problems regulating Tommy!

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Lauren&Tommy (GA)

Member Since 2010
Sue, Gator, if you're out there!! I haven't posted in a few months but i have been reading a lot and still doing what i can with Tommy's DB.. Much has changed since my last post late December. I have changed Vets and insulin (now on Lantus) but it is getting worse as the dose has been upped to 4u 2x a day. I have kept up on his spreadsheet, testing regularly when i can, he has had tests, all which have been negative. The vet is even confused at the high numbers still. Tommy is hungry all the time. I called the vet this morning to give an update on Tommy's high numbers even after the dosage change (will call me back). I have requested switching to PZI, my vet also agrees on the change, and would appreciate some input on the matter. I have read some of the threads on beginning PZI and would really love to know what you all have to say about this.. I am getting very frustrated and don't know what else to do. Tommy has gained a couple of pounds since he was diagnosed and i just want to help him but i feel very helpless right now.. Thanks to all for the wonderful advice and help in the past.
 
Hi: What insulin were you on prior to Lantus. Lantus is an excellent insulin for cats. This is a tight regulation forum. We post (1 condo) daily. Testing is important as the numbers provide the necessary information regarding dosage. My kitty started on PZI and got nowhere. Vet switched her to Lantus. Prior to joining this forum, Tuffy was on 10u BID Lantus. That was way too much and her numbers were high.

Have you read the protocol? Lantus needs to be dosed on a regular basis - 12/12. IMHO you have increased by .50and 1u and not held the dose for the recommended time. Lantus builds a shed and it takes 5 to 7 days initially. Dose hopping (changing doses frequently) causes confusion with the shed and bouncing.

Lantus dosing is based on the nadir, the lowest point in the cycle, not on the highest numbers like other older insulins. The only way to know the nadir is by testing and finding the lowest point in the cycle. Patience grasshopper, this is a marathon, not a sprint. Read the stickies at the top of the page. We like to start low, about 1u, and gradually work our dosing up/down as and if needed. We usually go up or down by .25 units. What are you feeding? Hunger is a sign of newly diagnosed kitties. Food is very important for controlling FD We use low carb wet food. We often feed small meals throughout the day. Many of us (most of us work) used timed feeders. Have you reviewed Janet & Binky's list. We call dry food "kitty crack", too many carbs for a sugarkitty and is retained in their system for long periods of time.

Does your kitty have any infections, bad teeth? These factors will contribute to higher numbers. Has he had any health problems prior to Diabetes diagnosis. If you fill out a profile, that will list necessary information regarding age, past health issues, feeding, etc.

I hope this is helpful to you.

Try not to be discouraged, give it a chance.
 
Hey - Welcome Back! I wondered what happened to you! Unless you are runnning out of your current supply of Lantus, I would give it another try using the protocol used here. Read all the information in the stickies at the top of the page. Get some advice on your dosing. Many cats here do very well on Lantus.

If you decide to change to PZI, we do have a forum for it also. But I wouldn't give up on Lantus yet.
 
Thanks sue, and everyone else. Barbara, I'm not sure if you've checked out his ss yet, but i've tried to be very detailed on what insulin he was on and what foods he's been eating and the jump in insulin is per instructions from my vet. He keeps saying he is a big kitty (14lbs) and it won't hurt to go up that much at a time.. I do disagree with that. He does get dosing every 12hr. I have done tight regulation a few times and tested for ketones at home as well as when he goes to the Vet..
Sue, i still have about a quarter vial left on the lantus, and i have no idea on where to go from here on the dosing. As you can see by the last months dosing on his ss, i have given time for the new dose to help his bg go down and it is not working. Thanks again for advice everyone, I will stick with Lantus for now.
 
I'll bump you up. There are several people here who are very experienced with Lantus and may be able to shed some light on your problems with it. They usually post in the mornings and evenings, so be sure to check back in. You certainly have high numbers. It does look like he has a persistent infection? Maybe some more info on that will help posters figure poor Tommy out?
 
Barbara, I'm not sure if you've checked out his ss yet, but i've tried to be very detailed on what insulin he was on and what foods he's been eating and the jump in insulin is per instructions from my vet. He keeps saying he is a big kitty (14lbs) and it won't hurt to go up that much at a time..

Yes, I did check his SS. You noted that he was eating 12-15 oz food, but not what kind of food. You also do not have any checks before bed. Kitties often drop at night. He could be going low and that is the reason for the highs in the a.m. Also, on 12/29, you shot but there is no PMBG. I'm not picking but these numbers are important. You were on 3.50 for 3 doses and then went to 4.0. Again, the shed needs to be considered. I'm sure someone will be along later to help clarify your problems with Tommy's bgs. Would you consider starting over and holding the dose for the prescribed number of days unless advised otherwise? Also, when a vet does a curve, the numbers are influenced by vet stress. We usually do our curves at home thereby eliminating vet stress and charges for said curve. The numbers are more accurate. If you would provide what food you are feeding, how often, health problems, that would be helpful information. One last thing, how old is your insulin? Is it a vial or pen? We usually buy the pens, they are more economical. Costco will sell 1 pen or most hospital pharmacies will sell one pen and the cost is about $40.00. You don't need a membership to Costco to purchase prescription medications. You can also order from Canada, which is very reasonable. The pens come in a box of 5 but they do not start expiration until you start to use them.
 
please know before reading on that i am one of the lesser experienced folks here.
some questions the experienced folks will ask:

when date did you first draw insulin from your vial (how old is your insulin)?

what is Tommy's feeding regimen? what is he being fed, and when?

is it possible for you to get evening cycle spot checks?

does Tommy have any other issues/conditions that could affect his bg levels?
Has he ever had a dental cleaning?

be sure to read the starred stickies at the top of the forum a soon as you can...it will help you understand lantus and will also have you better prepared when the wise ones start chatting with you.

and WELCOME! there is a vast amount of knowledge and support available here.

celi & binks

my inexperienced eye has me wondering if Tommy's "breakthrough dose" may have been missed...

others will address that in more depth
 
I just want to encourage you a little - i have a 14+lb kitty also, and am also a less-experienced, so won't comment on your particular situation. I think having connected here people will be able to help you get Tommy under better control.

Have you read the protocol that's used here? You might find it helpful - i learned a lot from it. This is found under the Lantus Forum, sticky called "Tight Regulation Protocol" then found lower in the post "Dosing protocol for Cats on Lantus . . . "
http://felinediabetes.com/Roomp_Rand_2008 dosing_testing protocol.pdf
 
"You also do not have any checks before bed. Kitties often drop at night. He could be going low and that is the reason for the highs in the a.m. Also, when a vet does a curve, the numbers are influenced by vet stress. We usually do our curves at home thereby eliminating vet stress and charges for said curve. The numbers are more accurate."

I appreciate the concern, but other than a few times, i test Tommy every single night before he gets his shot, that's the number before the U, under pmps. I apologize if i am putting that in the wrong place. All the numbers on the spreadsheet including the curves that are on there have been done by me. I have been home testing him since pretty much the beginning. Trust me, Tommy has no stress. He is a laid back kitty that is loved very, very much. I have in my notes next to the date on the 29th of December is when i started him on Lantus. I have a vial and it's about 3/4 empty now. I keep it refrigerated, i haven't dropped it, i don't shake it.
Tommy eats FF classic chicken, beef, turkey and giblets.
I understand the window there where i was not extremely patient on the dosage, and you can see that i have fixed that. I know i have to wait a certain time frame for the new dose to work.
As you can see by my notes on his ss he has had a few UTI but we cleared that up. He does not eat dry food.
The reason for going up to 4 u is my vet recommended i do so. I would start over Yes in a heartbeat if it meant making my boy better.
Tommy eats morning, late morning, afternoon, early evening and before bed. Usually 3-6oz each time.
 
Again, i'm sorry if i sound frustrated, it's just that it's hard to follow the vets direction when it's not always what i'm getting here. I came here because i believe that you all love your animals as i do and the vast knowledge here is what i needed, i have learned so much over the past few months since joining. I read here a while back that one needs a good working relationship with their vet and i believe i have that, it just seems that he wants me to keep giving more and more and i thought the whole idea was to be able to give less eventually .Cultures have been done, blood has been tested and thankfully all is negative. I feel as though i am spinning my wheels and getting nowhere as by evidence of Tommy's consistent high numbers. So again, i'm sorry if I sound fussy. I sure don't mean to. Thank you again all of you for your advice and help.. I won't give up EVER!
 
Hello, welcome to LL!

I can understand your frustration, we all want our kitties to feel better and get regulated as quickly as possible! I'm glad you found LL and posted, there's a lot of information here, and a lot of people who are happy to help you along the way. You've come to the right place!

We started out on ProZinc (PZI) and switched to Lantus after 3 months. While ProZinc is an excellent insulin, I would not advise you to switch from Lantus to a PZI at this point. Why? Because I think Lantus is superior to ProZinc (sorry Gator, but it's true!), not only because you have a better chance to getting your kitty into remission, but because they just simply FEEL better on Lantus..it's a gentler insulin. I would encourage you to give Lantus more time, and post here regularly for help.

If you are still on your original vial of Lantus, it's likely that it has lost potency. As Barbara suggested, I would get a prescription for the solostar pens instead of a vial, they are more economical in the long run. Most people get about 2 months from their vials of Lantus before it loses potency.

Are you still feeding 15-20 oz of food per day? What food are you feeding, and how do you feed...amount/schedule in relation to the shots? I suspect that part of the problem you are having regulating Tommy is related to the amount of food you are giving him. He doesn't need that much food, and extra food just drives up BG and causes him to need more insulin. I understand that he is hungry....all unregulated cats are hungry! But feeding him more will not satisfy him, getting his BG under control is the key to getting the hunger under control. I would reduce the amount of food. There is a formula for figuring out how much food he needs, based on ideal weight, at www.catinfo.org.

I'm sorry if I missed it.....when was Tommy's last dental done, if ever? Has the vet looked at his teeth?

I realize that your vet has advised you to increase the dose the way you have been, many vets are not very familiar with Lantus and they try to dose it the same way they would dose PZI and other veterinary insulins. The way your vet has been increasing Tommy's insulin dose has made it very possible that he has missed his ideal dose. The protocol we use here suggests holding each dose for a minimum of 6 cycles and increase by 0.25u in most cases. In addition, Lantus dose is adjusted by nadir, not preshot numbers. It is important to try to get at least one spot check in each cycle in addition to your preshot tests in order to see how the insulin is working for Tommy, and nadir checks before deciding on a dose increase. Most of us get a bedtime test each night, which is exactly what it sounds like, a test right before you go to bed. (Don't go by me, I'm a testaholic...I test a lot more than that!)

What I see on Tommy's SS is a lot of PS tests (that's great, you need those to make sure it's safe to give his insulin) but not a lot of spot checks in between. Without that data, it's hard to say if Tommy is over dose, or under dose. Some cats need a high dose, and Tommy could be one of them. The only way to find out is to get more data. Can you try to get some spot checks over the next day or two, at least one in each cycle? The more tests you can get, the better...if you work during the day, try to get an out the door test and an in the door test, and then a few during the evening if possible....this is in addition to the PS tests. The more data you get, the better we can help you.

Please do read the stickies at the top of the forum, there is a TON of information there that will help you. We know it's a lot, please ask questions....we like questions! I'm glad you found us, I hope you will post often!
 
Welcome to Lantus Land!

I want to add a few comments in addition to Laurie's very thoughtful post.

We truly don't want you to feel like you have to choose between your vet and the information here. You do need to have a good working relationship with your vet. We're hoping to provide information about Lantus use because we pretty much spend all of our time focused on that one insulin. You vet juggles a lot more.

Other than the initial dose, Lantus dosing is not based upon a cat's weight. Just because Tommy is 14lbs, doesn't mean he requires bigger doses. At least depending on the published veterinary research underlying the protocol we use, dose is based on the nadir (i.e., a nadir > 300 gets an increase of 0.5u; < 300 is an increase of 0.25u). There are some tiny cats who get whopping doses and some huge cats that get little doses. It all depends you your cat's individual needs. Looking at your spreadsheet, it does look like Tommy needs more insulin. There are any number of cats who have gotten up to much higher doses only to have their doses come back down the ladder as their pancreas begins to heal.

Lantus dose adjustments are based on the lowest point in the cycle, not on the pre-shot values. This is why we're pushing for tests during both the AM and PM parts of the cycle. I'm going to hazard a guess that you go to sleep shortly after the PM shot. If this is indeed the case, is there any way you are able to shift your shot times so you shoot earlier and can get some tests during the evening cycle?

As far as food, it sounds like you're feeding Fancy Feast low carb varieties. That's great. Just so you have a sense of the number of calories a cat needs per day, the formula on Lisa Pierson, DVM's feline nutrition website is: calories per day = 13.6 x ideal weight + 70. For a 14 lb cat, Tommy would need 260 calories per day. A 3 oz can of FF Classic Chicken is 93.6 calories or 31.2 calories/oz. Based on your feeding 15 - 20 oz of food per day, Tommy is getting between 474 - 624 calories per day. The amount of food may be contributing to keeping his numbers up.

Please let us know how we can help. There is a lot of information available both in the sticky notes and from the experience of people here. We're happy to lend a hand.
 
((((hugs))))

I have a little different perspective than some of the others because I have a high dose cat (Jazzy has acromegaly, and also Lucy's breakthrough dose was 4.25 units which isn't exactly a tiny dose either).

Yes, I would rather see more spot checks, and especially some at night. Even if you go to bed at +2 or +3, grab a test then every night (and if you wake up at +10, get one then too). You'll be surprised at how quickly your spreadsheet starts to make more sense once you start getting those random spot checks every now and then. I also agree with Laurie's suggestion that it might be time to replace your insulin. Most of us don't get good results after a vial or cartridge has been in use for that long.

Even so, in my opinion you're doing a good job of getting data most of the time. I'm known for being aggressive, but personally I would have done the same dose increases that you did. I wouldn't have held some of the doses as long as you did.

There is a little clause in our Tight Regulation Protocol(under Increasing the Dose) that says: "However, if the cat is producing continuously high BGs (nadir always >=300 mg/dl), only hold the dose for 2-3 days before increasing it by 0.5 IU." When I see high, flat numbers all above 300, I often suggest increases of 0.5 units at a time, every 4-6 cycles, provided that the bean is able to monitor sufficiently and has a well stocked hypo toolkit. Then once the numbers start moving a bit, I would slow down the dose increases and possibly to to increasing in increments of 0.25. This is only for cats that are high (mostly red and black with some high pink), not showing much movement in numbers, and are being tested sufficiently at home.

Based on that part of the protocol, a plan you might choose to try would be this: a) monitor more. You're doing a good job, just do a little better. Grab spot checks whenever you can, including bed time and/or when you get up in the morning, when you get home from work, just before you leave the house, etc. b) Tommy's current dose is 4 units. Don't increase again until you can get a bunch of spot checks just to be sure he is not getting lower, but do that as soon as you can, then c) as long as you are maintaining a schedule of getting spot checks in almost every cycle, then increase every 4-6 cycles by 0.5 unit at a time. NEVER do a dose increase unless you have at least two mid-cycle checks on that dose, preferably more and preferably around nadir. Continue that until the numbers start to move. Also, please stay in touch and post here every day, if you can. It will help us help you.

Regardless of what option you choose, if you don't already have a hypo toolkit, including lots of high carb wet food (something with gravy), be sure to make a toolkit ASAP.

For those who don't understand why I'm saying the dose increases were ok, here's a brief explanation of the thoughts in my head. I might be totally wrong, but I wanted to make sure all the options are out there.

* Numbers didn’t look too bad on 2.5 units of Humulin. When he started Lantus he went to 1 unit, which was fine (maybe even a little low, usuallly we suggest starting slightly below the "good" dose of the previous insulin).

* Don't have a ton of spot checks on 1u but enough to be fairly sure he was staying high. I agree with 0.5 unit increases when the cat is all pink/red/black. He held 1 unit for 5 days, 1.5 for 2 days, and at that point I would have also suggested 0.5u increases every 4-6 cycles (because he is still high and flat).

* Held the 2u and 2.5u doses too long. Holding doses too long can allow the cat to build a resistance to the dose. Not a big deal, resistance can be broken through, but usually it requires more insulin to get the breakthrough.

* The only dose increase I don’t really agree with is the last one, because Tommy did see some yellow on 3u and 3.5u. I would have done more testing at that point before increasing the dose again. If you do want to drop back in dose, I would suggest dropping to no lower than 3 units. In my opinion, Tommy WAS given enough time on the lower doses than that. I also think that if you choose to stay at 4 units and work up from there, Tommy should be safe and if he needs a reduction from 4 units, he'll tell us soon enough. You have to test more, though!

Also, you mentioned in one of your posts that you thought the point was to reduce the insulin eventually. Really the point is to give him whatever amount he needs to be healthy. Not all cats do well on small doses, and not all cats will go OTJ (but having a higher dose does not mean that he CAN'T go OTJ, if the circumstances are right). There are a ton of variables so we just have to follow Tommy's lead.
 
Sue and Oliver said:
I'll bump you up. There are several people here who are very experienced with Lantus and may be able to shed some light on your problems with it. They usually post in the mornings and evenings, so be sure to check back in. You certainly have high numbers. It does look like he has a persistent infection? Maybe some more info on that will help posters figure poor Tommy out?

Can you give us some more info on the infection? I see notes on the SS about UTI/blood in the urine a couple of times, then a negative culture? The last notes I saw said that the tests were negative...what tests were done? These numbers very easily could be related to infection....
 
Ok, first things first, you all are wonderful people with how much you care and take the time to respond. Let me answer the questions you have asked and then i have some questions i would like to ask also.
Tommy came with the property i was building a house on some 14yrs ago. He was approx 2yrs old then. He remained an outside kitty for many of those years until he had one too many an encounter with a raccoon and my husband and i decided that was enough. He needed to be inside to heal from the wound to his leg so we took that as a sign to try and make him and indoor kitty.. That didn't take long. Fast forward, He has never had dental cleaning done. When i took him in for his UTI, the vet checked him over and found that one of his teeth was infected. He started Tommy on antibiotics for the UTI also hoping that would take care of the infection on the tooth. He suggested we get the UTI under control and then address the tooth if it was still bad. I have not taken him back to have the tooth looked at. I will do that.
A urine culture was done to pinpoint what kind of antibiotic to combat the problem but the culture came back negative. His ketones have consistently come back negative as well.
Tommy drinks a lot of water and his P's are mostly always very big.
Let me start by letting you know how i take care of Tommy, maybe i'm doing something wrong.
I feed in the a.m.--test--then shoot
I saw in an earlier post that you should test--feed--then shoot.
The reason i was doing this was Tommy was having a hard time sitting still if he wasn't fed first.
Let me know if i definitely need to test before feeding

Ok, now with my questions:
The vial of lantus i have is still almost half full and it cost about $110. If in fact it has lost its potency, i will be wasting about $50. by throwing it out. Why would anyone use a vial if you end up throwing away most of it? I understand it's human insulin and they use more than do animals, but i just don't understand using a vial for my Tommy if i'm going to throw out 1/2 a vial every time. I cannot afford that.
Do i need a prescription from my Vet for the solostar pens and if so how to i go about getting that done and here as soon as possible. Does my vet have to call, fax, e-mail the pharmacy or company i choose, or how does it work?
Libby and Lucy, are you saying that if i'm up at 3am i should go ahead and test? Is that what you are referring to by spot testing.. I've done a couple of 12hr curves to find the nadir and many tests throughout the day on other occasions.
When i receive the new lantus, should i start over with a lower dose since it will be more potent..? Please advise. I know i've asked a whole lot of questions.
I will continue with the 4u 2x a day until i can get more lantus and i will reduce his food intake to the appropriate amt.
Thank you all for caring so much.. It's nice to know i'm not alone on this journey.
If you have any more questions or i have missed something.. please let me know.
Have a wonderful day all!!!
 
great questions & answers! you are on your way. bumping you up as well. I'd suggest editing your first post subject line for today with something new so that it's noticed. "3/16 tommy more questions" or something like that. then when you get answers you can take out the "more questions part."
 
Ok, now with my questions:
The vial of lantus i have is still almost half full and it cost about $110. If in fact it has lost its potency, i will be wasting about $50. by throwing it out. Why would anyone use a vial if you end up throwing away most of it? I understand it's human insulin and they use more than do animals, but i just don't understand using a vial for my Tommy if i'm going to throw out 1/2 a vial every time. I cannot afford that.
Do i need a prescription from my Vet for the solostar pens and if so how to i go about getting that done and here as soon as possible. Does my vet have to call, fax, e-mail the pharmacy or company i choose, or how does it work?

This is the only question I can answer. With my first diabetic cat, I moved to the Solostar pens after trying 1 vial. I threw away 2/3 of it and decided that wasn't going to work. I used them right away with my second diabetic girl, and after 6 weeks, I'm still on the first pen and it's working fine. That will give you at least 8 months of use for roughly double the price. You will need a prescription for Solostar Pens, and you can get a written prescription or have your vet call the pharmacy of your choice. I would call around and check prices as they can vary quite a bit. Walmart was the cheapest for me at $222. There is a $25 off coupon here http://www.lantus.com/solostar-insulin-pen/solostar-coupon.aspx . Use that and any other discount card you may have, like AAA. My total at Walmart ended up being $175. When you have more time, you can consider buying from Canada(if you live there already, great). Folks here can guide you on that and it seems to be reliable and much cheaper.

Good luck. The Solostar pens are the way to go to always have fresh insulin on hand and save money in the long run.

Jason
 
i could say i know you have to test in the morning and evening before you shoot them. food brings up their numbers and you want a "true" reading. mine is crabby with that plan also, but otherwise you're not getting good numbers.

if their blood glucose drops low, the first line of defense is giving them food - because it does pull up their blood sugar pretty quickly.
 
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