Problem with new diabetes kitty... help please

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beachin

beachin

Member Since 2013
Hi, I am starting a new post because I haven't posted since a couple days ago and I think everyone that was so great in helping moved on to help others. My cat Char Char was diagnosed with Diabetes. This is a bad time because neither myself or husband are working... Well, my husband got a job and is going back to work on Tuesday. I had spent what I could on the initial vet and was waiting due to that vet refusing further treatment because I asked to return the Purina One dry cat food... Putting me at the starting point with limited income. Anyways, last night Char did not meow like crazy for food. I needed sleep bad and slept until at 5am I couldn't stand it and was too worried to sleep. I found Char outside and he was not himself. I feed him. He ate two cans of Fancy Fiest but still wasn't doing his normal thing. Very lethargic and his eyes seemed glassed over. Then I noticed when he got up to walk that he was very soft step on his back legs. So, I read some things on the internet and gave some honey... he perked up a bit. I mean, it looked like he was gonna die before that... He didn't seem in pain but just so out of it.
Anyways, knowing I couldn't wait any longer I went to the vet at 10:15... The vet said he was dehydrated and gave him liquids, ran a blood test to go into the lab and checked his glucose. Said it was at 350... Seems low to me as the first vet said it was 2000. He does have some tooth decay and an infection. The vet didn't want to give him insulin or anything until his blood work comes back on Monday.

Does any of this make sense. Going from 2000 to 350, having those symptoms and everything. I am planning to set my alarm to check on him through out the night. Any other suggestions?
 
how did the first vet test? I've never heard of a reading of 2000 bg level, so unclear what that really means.

350 is a high diabetic number and with a number this high you need to check for ketones in the urine - it means buying a container of ketostix - they are under $12 for a container.

do you have a meter that you can use to test him at home?

did you change the food from dry to canned? that will certainly help. But I think you need to test his bg levels and ketone test to make sure he doesn't have them or have DKA, which is very serious and can be life threatening.
 
Hello again Linnea!

Just so everyone knows what's already been discussed (and in case you need to look back and can't find it), here's the link to your last post Previous post

Going over it, I realized we never did ask you what kind of readings the vet got the first time. 2000 isn't a number we ever see, but 350 is still too high.

I'm not experienced enough to advise you about what might be going on right now with Char

Did you ever get the testing supplies and start home testing?

I know you've had a horrible time with this, and hope things are finally going to turn around for you. You and your family deserve that.
 
Chris thanks for the link to her previous post. Somehow I missed all that.

Linnea - let's regroup and recap.

Please tell us

) if you found another vet
) did you receive a prescription for insulin - possibly lantus so you can use the coupon that was in your previous post
) if you have a meter and strips
) are you able to test his bg's
) what food you are feeding him
) do you add water to the food - if it's wet food that is

For your information - Maui's initial vet when she was diagnosed with diabetes - fired me too - she refused to work with me, because I asked questions and wanted to home test. She actually forbade me from home testing.

I panicked and freaked out and thought the world was going to end, because I didn't have a vet who was going to help me help my cat. The people on this board helped me. They walked me through what I needed to do and I called all the vets local to me to ask how they treat diabetes. I found one who would work with me regarding home testing and didn't push prescription or dry food.

So, while it feels like you are alone and adrift with no way out, you are not. This board is full of wonderful people who will help you, guide you and help you work with a new vet.

One thing I realized is talking to a vet about the people on the internet, isn't always met with a positive response. So, I don't discuss it, but I do bring a list of questions and expect the vet to answer them to the best of their ability.

One vet in this new office, does insist on feeding prescription food and I just say thank you for the recommendation, but I have the food issue covered and if the need arises, I will be happy to revisit the subject with you. While it doesn't make the vet happy, saying this, shuts down the conversation and avoids any controversy.

If my cats ever have to stay overnight or for a day at the vet's office, I bring their food (sometimes unopened in the can and sometimes in ziplocs or plastic containers and instruct the vet staff that they are only give the cat the food and treats I supply. I make sure their name is clearly written on it, along with my phone number for any questions and that seems to resolve that issue and not leave the food choice to the vet or assistant to decide.

You may find that helpful too if you ever have to take the cat in and leave him.

Please answer my questions, so that we can be in a position to better help you.
 
Hilary, I posted the below before seeing your post. Yes, new vet today, no won't prescribe insulin dispite Char's clearly bad situation. Feeding Fancy Feast original chicken, beef... Yes, put some water with food but he doesn't like it... He was given fluids... Tomorrow I will put water in a syringe and in his mouth if he isn't drinking.,He has not been to the kitchen and usually eats on,the kitchen table. Can't jump up now... He has gained a pound.




The 2000 was his glucose level from the first vet. The 350 is,now. I have wtuff to test for glucose but need my husband to do but he's an alcoholic and has been screaming and feeling sorry fir himself fir the last 3 . Char just ate.,I just moved him to my room, he's still dragging back legs. Still sleeping. He will wag his tail when I pet him but he went under the bed. He never does that.

What is the DB something mentioned and what do I do.,The vet literally said do nothing but she hysrated him til full blood tests come back Tues. That's not why I rushed him there.,I feel like it's an emergency but I'm helpless and out if money. $500 in,three Weeks with no income and my a/ stopped last Sat, another $300. I'm so stressed with no where to turn I just feel like I'm gonna have a stroke.
 
Tuna water helps a lot in getting them to drink if you have any (make sure the ingredients are only tuna and water tho)

When I give it to my cats I put about equal amounts of water and the tuna water together (makes more to go around AND gets real water in them, reduces the sodium somewhat)


eta: Also.. /Hugs Just calm down, take things one at a time, don't let it overwhelm you, it does get better over time I promise. I was (and still am a little) terrified of needles and blood prior to Frog's diabetes dx.. now, I poke him all the time and it doesn't even bother me anymore - the shot never bothered him except a couple times when I think I got a bad angle (have even poked myself a couple times, and that wasn't as bad as I thought it would be either) Talk to your kitty, explain to him that this is necessary, and that he doesn't have a choice, but that you'll give him goodies when done (usually just the promise of goodies does it, but I like talkin to my kitties :)
 
If he is dragging his legs, he could have what is known as diabetic neuropathy. The way to treat it is with insulin regulation and Vitamin B12 that contains methylcobalamin - you can purchase a pet version of this called zobaline. Or you can buy a human version (which may be less expensive). If you buy the human version, you ned to be sure that it
contains this version of B12 - there are several different forms of Vitamin B12 and doesn't contain sugar.

I am not sure what DB means, but I am thinking it is diabetic neuropathy as I mentioned above...

I am very sorry that you are having problems and your husband isn't helpful. Are you able to test him without his help?

The food you are giving him are fancy feast classics and this is good as it is low carb.

There is a group called DCIN - which is Diabetics Cats in Need and they sometimes help people who are in financial distress. Here is a link to their website and their financial assistance program - I suggest you contact them and see if they are able to help you.

http://fdmb-cin.blogspot.com/p/education.html

When you say the 350 test is now. Do you mean that this is what happened at the vet or that you recently took this test at home? Aside from this number and the number from the original vet, do you have other test numbers available?

While this is a high number, if it happened at the vet's office it could be higher due to vet stress and being out of the home environment. If this test was done at home today and is the only test you got, it is just one number and while yes it is higher than we like to see, it is just one test.

I do think insulin is needed and the sooner you can get started on insulin the better - please keep in mind that injectible insulin is what we recommend. If the vet suggests using oral insulin and the vet might due to your finances, please insist on a prescription for injectible insulin.

if you complete the form on the lantus website, you can get a lantus savings card where you will pay $25 for each solostar pen, You will also need a prescription for U-100 insulin syringes, with 1/2 unit markings. so make sure the vet writes a prescription for this too.

You may also need to make some phone calls to local pharmacies to find out which one(s) will sell you one pen at a time, as normally the pen is sold in a box of 5. Some pharmacies, and call hospital pharmacies too may sell one pen at a time.

Here is the link to the lantus savings card that you can complete in advance - remember to list Char as being at least 18 years old....

http://www.lantus.com/sign-up/offers.aspx

and if DCIN can help you all the better.
 
I got up at 3am and he is in the yard. I fed him one can if foid. Then again at 4 30 another can, I brought him inside. He ate the food and went back out. I just fed him two more cans and an antibiotic. No I don't think I can test. Gonna try and sleep then get my husband to tet. The vet is closed today. I don't know if he'll make it to Monday. I'm gonna do the Tuna water with water later. The vet wouldn't give insulin til test redults Monday. I am gonna call first thing and get it... Just trying yo get through til then.
 
Since he goes outside, do you know where he goes while outside? It is very possible that he can get into dog food, cat food or other food that is left outside by neighbors and such and if he does, then you will never know and when you do test and start giving insulin, it could really affect his numbers.

Is it possible to keep him inside and not let him go out. Or only let him out on a leash, supervised by you?
 
He only goes out in my yard. It is completely fenced in by a 6ft brick wall. I would never let him out otherwise.

I just woke up and I poured some extra water into the Tuna water. He drank the whole thing. Now just get through today and tonight. First thing tommorrow and back to the vet to make her give him insulin. Pray for Char please.
 
The 200 is very likely the glucose reading in urine via a Keto-Diastix (or similar). For glucose, the Keto-Diastic reads:
negative and then 100 mg/ml\dL (1/10 %) to highest of 2000 mg/dL (2%)

Hillary & Maui said:
how did the first vet test? I've never heard of a reading of 2000 bg level, so unclear what that really means.

350 is a high diabetic number and with a number this high you need to check for ketones in the urine - it means buying a container of ketostix - they are under $12 for a container.

do you have a meter that you can use to test him at home?

did you change the food from dry to canned? that will certainly help. But I think you need to test his bg levels and ketone test to make sure he doesn't have them or have DKA, which is very serious and can be life threatening.
Click to expand...
 
It was the reading from urine at the first vet and it wasn't 200 it was 2000. I just went into my office where Char is. He is sitting up. I fed him another can if food. He's still sitting up. For the last 24 plus hours he was laying down and even with eatting he was just lifting his head. He's been sitting up for about an hour. I gave him another antibiotic.. Feeling optimistic. 8 cans of food sunce Friday at 5pm, so about 4 each day...
 
Still looking better. Fed him again. He went to the litter box, went poo, then got tired and sat in it. I cleaned him off, what fun! But he looks more alert... He's not out if the woids but I can see a clearing up ahead as long as I stuck with him all night and tomorrow morning call the vet and get him on insulin. I haven't pushed to do bg test cause he's comfortable and it doesn't matter what the results are. I can't do anything til tomorrow. I can't afford to take him in tomorrow but I am doing it anyways. Somehow the rest will sort itself out.
 
So I took him in after canceling my first day of work and getting my husband home from work early his first day. They refused to prescribe anything without us going in and paying another cost for that. Then we went in and they wanted to give the Vetsulin, I looked on here and did a quick search and saw that it is not recommended. They also wanted me to only feed him once a day. That will never work. When I asked about the Landis they told me that the vet would not prescribe it because she was not familiar with it. Now I am finding that the vet has had an Initial Investigative Review on March 20, 2013, another Initial Investigative Review on April 17, 2013. Then on May 15th she is down for an Informal Interview and Board Deliberation with the following note, (Continuance of Informal Interview for the purpose of reviewing and approving proposed Findings of Fact, Conclusion of Law and adopting an Order.)

I have now spent $300 with them... I am putting together information to get her to prescribe Landis tomorrow. Help, advice???? The one very bad thing about the Vetsulin was they wanted me to only feed Char Char once a day. That will never work...... :YMSIGH:
 
Hmm.. Doesn't sound like a good vet. But here's some info to show her on Lantus..

The American Animal Hospital Association published diabetes treatment guidelines in 2010.
http://www.felinediabetes.com/AAHADiabetesGuidelines.pdf

And this journal article abstract .. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19592286

With lantus you dose twice a day and can feed as often as you want, just not for the two hours before the shot because you will be home testing and won't want that blood test number influenced by food.

Wendy
 
Thanks Wendy, Anyone have any advice on getting this vet to not be afraid to help? I can appreciate that they may not be a specialist on cat's alone and that things are always changing. I just would like for her to be a vet that works with me and my cat....
 
Have you spoken to the vet herself? Sounds like just the techs from what you said.

You need to be nice but firm. Tell them you want what's best for your cat, bring print out of the links I sent you and that you really want to use this insulin and want her support on this. Ask her to go research it herself, to look into it and give you her educated opinion. And hopefully she will want to try it too.

Here's another article.. http://www.uq.edu.au/ccah/docs/diabetesinfo/article5.pdf

Good luck!
Wendy
 
Wendy&Tiggy said:
Hmm.. Doesn't sound like a good vet. But here's some info to show her on Lantus..

The American Animal Hospital Association published diabetes treatment guidelines in 2010.
http://www.felinediabetes.com/AAHADiabetesGuidelines.pdf

And this journal article abstract .. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19592286

With lantus you dose twice a day and can feed as often as you want, just not for the two hours before the shot because you will be home testing and won't want that blood test number influenced by food.

Wendy
Click to expand...

Wendy, I didn't see anything in the 2nd link about Lantus....It looks like these are referring to the PZI????
 
Quote from earlier message and question....

This is what I was told to get...
I do think insulin is needed and the sooner you can get started on insulin the better - please keep in mind that injectible insulin is what we recommend. If the vet suggests using oral insulin and the vet might due to your finances, please insist on a prescription for injectible insulin.

if you complete the form on the lantus website, you can get a lantus savings card where you will pay $25 for each solostar pen, You will also need a prescription for U-100 insulin syringes, with 1/2 unit markings. so make sure the vet writes a prescription for this too.

You may also need to make some phone calls to local pharmacies to find out which one(s) will sell you one pen at a time, as normally the pen is sold in a box of 5. Some pharmacies, and call hospital pharmacies too may sell one pen at a time.

Here is the link to the lantus savings card that you can complete in advance - remember to list Char as being at least 18 years old....

With that in mind, how much will lantus cost for a month and why do I need the solostar pen???
 
A solostar pen is a plastic and glass "pen shaped" container containing 3ml of lantus - which is 300 units. Say you start on 1 unit twice a day (a nice safe starting dose) it will last you 150 days (~5months) .. Cost $25 with coupon.

Or you could buy a 10ml glass vial which costs $100 or so but it will expire after 6 months and you won't have used it all.

Pens are cheaper and last longer. You need syringes to extract small enough accurate doses from either pens or vials. You can get syringe tips for the pens but they aren't accurate enough at small doses for cats.

Wendy
 
I paid $160 for the 10ml vial ..I wish I'd been able to find someplace that would split a box of the pens so I could just get 1 and not have to pay for all 5 at once...but I know more now than I knew then, so I'll know what to do next time (if there IS a "next time"!)
 
Thanks for the explanation. I'm just awake worried that this vet isn't gonna subscribe. I don't have the time ir money to go to a third vet and when I call tomorrow if she doesn't have a prescription for me I seriously am gonna go over the deep end.
 
I used to live in Avondale and used two hospitals that, while not super close to you, will still be better than where you went.

Both are certified by the American Animal Hsoptial Association and that link shows all the AAHA clinics within 30 miles of Buckeye. The two I've used are Ambassador and Apollo. I do not know if the vet I liked at Ambassador is still there and I don't remember is name. Apollo is the one I used for the last two years I lived in Avondale and the vet I liked most is Chuck Tobin.

I will tell you that he is like most vets when it comes to home testing, etc, but I know you could at least get Lantus from him and he is a very kind man. You can tell him Marje Blaine referred you. Be firm that you do not need an in hospital curve. All you need is the visit and the prescription. However, I think if you can get a copy of any bloodwork done at the other clinic or let Dr. Tobin run a panel just to be sure there's not something else.

Please let us know.
 
:RAHCAT YEAH!!!!!! I got the prescription and called around and Fry's Pharmacy will sell one pen at a time. Now I just need to know the price for the syringes... Got to hurry and pickup and get back to start my new job. Thanks so much. I am sure I will have questions when we get them. Char Char is meowing again.. Help on feeding and giving him these would be great!!!! flip_cat

I am calling the vet to tell them where to call it into. Should I have them do one or two of the Pens or how should I ask for it???
 
For syringes you want any of these below they should have half unit markings - have the pharmacist open the box to have a look. You do not want the syringe tips for the pens even if the pharmacist insists.

For U-100 syringes (Lantus, Levemir), get 3/10 cc, half-unit marked, short needle, 30-31 gauge ie
Relion 3/10cc 30 & 31 gauge short
BD Ultra fine 3/10cc short
Terumo Thinpro Insulin Syringe 31G 3/10cc
Kroger 0.3cc 8mm, 31 gauge

You want to ask the vet to write "insulin pen" or something on the prescription. What dose did she prescribe?


Wendy

PS This is also the time to start home testing Char Chars blood to keep him safe and be better able to know how and when to change dose.
 
I am training on my new job but my husband just got home. He is going to be giving the insulin. I did not get any kind of stoppers. I also need to know what to do on first shot. The vet fired us but did write the prescription. Twice a day 1 ml or what ever. I am trying to hurry as I am suppose to be watching a training tape....

I found this link http://www.catster.com/forums/Cat_Health/thread/576062

It says this. I got the pen and the syringes. I don't know how to use the syringes... That is what I am looking for help on. Also, when before not to feed. My husband works til 2:30 but leaves in the mornings at 4:45am so I have to figure out this schedule...
 
What do you mean by "stoppers"?

And you mean 1 unit, not 1ml right? It's a very small dose. What syringes did you get?


1. Keep the lantus in the fridge. Not the door.do not shake or roll it. It should last six months.

2. You will want to do a blood test first. Do not shoot if under 200 and let us know.

3. Read this which explains how to handle lantus, how to remove the insulin from the pen etc http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=151


Did the vet at least explain how to give the shot?
 
Did you buy insulin syringes that say U100 or did you buy the syringes that fit on the solostar pens?

If you bought the ones that fit on the pen, you will not be able to get the micro dosing that may be needed or adjust the dose in 1/2 or 1/4 units at a time.

So, hopefully you purchased separate insulin syringes - U100 needles that will say

Insulin syringe 31 or 30 gauge 0.3 cc and possibly 5/16th length
 
Yesterday they explained how to give the Vetsulin. Not this one. When prior to the shot can he eat? I got the U 100 syringes but how do you get those into the pen. It has the pen needle on it.

Opps, trying to do too many things at once. I see your link...
 
The syringes are the 3/10ml cc gage 31 u-100 and yes the pen looks like the one in the link. I was confused because she was trying to sell me the pen with the needles and I insisted on the other so now I see the pen doesn't have the needle in it like the first one she showed me. I took a picture with my phone will upload...
 
If there is a needle already in the pen, then you need to remove it in order to use the syringe....

Not sure how it comes off, maybe it twists or pulls off?

Then there should be a rubber stopper in the insulin vial (pen) and you insert the syringe into that. same as you would a regular insulin vial.

remember do not inject air into the vial (pen) or extra insulin back into the pen. Or you could contaminate the insulin,
 
Like this.... You take off the cap and you should see a grayish rubber end..

4113.jpg


Expel air from syringe. Press and hold plunger. Insert into rubber end of pen . Slowly draw out the insulin to the 1 unit marking. Flick syringe and expel any air bubble.

Wendy
 
Here is the picture of what I have... How come the pharmacist was so confused on how I was going to get the stuff into the syringe? She had me confused. She had a cat that she lost on lantus... Don't want to know right now how often this happens.... :cry:
 

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Ok so you open the syringe, take out the plastic wrap, remove orange cap and place needle into the rubber area on the glass side of vial - if you stick it in the middle of the rubber area, you will be able to draw up the insulin amount you need.

it really is quite easy - don't know why the pharmacist was confused, maybe she didn't understand that you can treat the pen like a mini vial......

and listening to someone say they lost their cat on lantus really is an inappropriate comment, because you don't know the circumstances of what happened, how she cared for the cat, whether she home tested, what other medical issues the cat may have had.... so, in that situation, just say I'm sorry for you loss , buy your stuff and leave.
 
The pen has a dial with numbers on it, just ignore that.

Pharmacist probably didnt know the pen has a rubber end in which you can insert the needle, my picture shows it clearly. I do this all the time...
 
I only had 10 minutes, first day of new job. For me and husband. Just gave insulin. Can he should he eat now... I can't find the answer....
 
Yes let him eat.

Did you test first? Can you test tonite? I know it's a lot to take in right now but testing is important too. Many cats blood sugar drops a lot after a change to low carb food. We want to keep him safe.

Wendy
 
I am going to... I just can't do everything at once with me training right now live with the owner of the company and my husband had his first day today. I wanted to get insulin into Char... He has been on low carb food since she tested him at the office the other day and he was at 350 then....

I still need the answers to eating before, after shots, no one has answered and I have asked about 10 times... Please respond...
 
I have honey at home and I used it last Saturday cause I didn't know what was wrong with him....

I still need the answers to eating before, after shots, no one has answered and I have asked about 10 times... Please respond...

Okay, I have got to get some sleep but I need to have my husband give him a shot at 4:30 am and I still am unclear about when he can and can't eat... Also, I read something else, I am giving him 1 unit twice daily. He weighs 15 lbs. Does that seem right. His reading at the vet was 350. When will I or should I notice anything different in him in terms of his demand for food and water???
 
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