Probably time I introduced Linus

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Brian

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Linus is 13 yr old domestic shorthaired neutered male, just shy of 15lbs and trying to lose weight down to 13~14lbs or so, he's been up to 23lbs in the past and the weight loss has been at a slow steady pace for a few years. Due to some allergy issues he's been on prednisilone, 5mg bid, and ceterizine, 5mg sid, for about a year and a half before the diabetes diagnosis near the start of December 2011. Total dry food addict as well.

The pred was likely the major contributing factor to the diabetes, but it's still preferable to what he did to himself without the pred. He had a blood test about a year before the diabetes, and was ~4.0 mmol/l and had BG in the 20.0 mmol/l range when first diagnosed, fructosamine 504, urine glucose 3+, and showed no clinical signs (in retrospect he may have had a poor coat condition) so we likely caught it reasonably early. We had managed to switch to 1/2 his daily food as Purina DM wet and 1/2 Royal Canin DM dry by the time we started Lantus about a week or so after diagnosis.

I was going on the vets advice the first few weeks before I found the Roomp and Rand tight protocol paper so the starting dose (2u bid) may have been high and I should probably have been testing more. We hit a problem as we finished the switch fully to canned foor (Purina DM and EVO 95% chicken) and had to drastically cut his insulin back to still be able to maintain 2 shots/day. He's been on .75u bid for just over 2 weeks now and is happily cruising between 4-7 mmol/l, which I'm totally happy with, staying at or near normal levels and refusing to go too low (my meter is a Bayer Contour).

No real questions at this point since he's cruising well. We've cut the pred down a week ago and all has gone well (hoping this new diet will help the itchy) and plan to lower it more (keeping a close eye on this potentially lower his BG and thus needing less insulin). Slow weight loss is going to be maintained until he subjectively 'looks right' and we'll shift to less DM more EVO for cost reasons (for the record he likes the DM as much as any other wet food-he tolerates them but would prefer dry). We may aim to try Atopica now if we can't ditch the pred, cost was an issue before but there's a generic version that's cheaper and if it helps get remission we will then save on diabetes supplies, so that'd be nice. Linus does handle all the needling and poking with pretty much no issues, so if this ends up being his life and we can't ditch the insulin, no worries.

Spreadsheet is below, World and US units on different tabs. Any comments are welcome.
 
ACK! I would stop giving insulin!!!

Anything less that 8 is a normal number in cats!!!! I would be worried about sending him into hypo shock!!!!!

I assume he is on lantus and I am unfamiliar with Tight Regulation using it but with his pre-shots always being in normal numbers why even give insulin?!

Maybe post on the lantus board where they know more if that is the insulin you are using! But I know with short acting insulins you would never give a shot when they are that low!!!
 
hi brian. linus is doing great! :mrgreen:

morning preshot numbers are usually the last to come down. when a lantus kitty gets to the point linus is at we'll often suggest feeding a small low carb mini-meal at PM +8 or +9. if enough beta cells have regenerated/recovered, the small mini-meal will stimulate his body to produce insulin on it's own... which in turn, will then pull the amps number down.

it's definitely worth trying. it may work well for him.
good luck!
 
The vets at my hospital don't want us patients to shoot any Lantus insulin if they are under 10 mmol.


I did super super super tight regulation with Simba in 2008, and he ended up in a severe hypo with only 0.8 mmol when I caught it. I immediately gave him high sugar juice and dextrose in large amounts, he survived it but got minor brain and nerve system injuries from it.
 
Cellosmom- thank you for your concern! I am following the tight regulaution protocol from Roomp and Rand since I found the paper (some deviations to err on the side of caution). The goal is to hit and stay at the normal range, defined as 2.8-5.5 mmol/l in the paper, as measured on a human meter as I use, to help the pancreas to heal for the best chance at remission. He's normal now with the insulin, what happens if it is withdrawn too soon? Think of someone with a broken foot- with crutches they can keep up with a normal walking pace, take the crutches away before the foot has healed and... Not so much. You will notice just how flat and level he is on his current dose of Lantus, he's going nowhere near the hypo danger zone (a curve is due within a couple days) and has generally been as well behaved and predictable as I could hope for.

Ann- I'm in Canada and I think I've managed to be consistent with the mmol/l units above- the Americans on this site sometimes cause me to revert to the mg/dl version as I'm getting used to seeing readings that way.

Jill- Right now he gets 4 meals per day, 8am (shot time), 2pm, 8pm (shot time), and 12am. He is not enthralled with the wet food and generally takes 2-3 hours of dilly-dallying to finish his portion, so he's usually getting food 3-4 hours before pmps. This could be the difference with the amps- I'm planning on getting an auto feeder for when we're gone in the day, I could then easily push the 12am meal to 2am and still get to sleep. Thanks for your input!
 
Wow Brian! I'm impressed....you're some newbie!
I think the spreadsheet looks great.
Keep up the good work. It can be scary shooting when they have low numbers but the saying goes "shoot low to stay low"....you might want to visit the lantus board too.
 
Wow Brian, those numbers are pretty appealing. I'd worry about shooting but as you point out, it could be a pretty flat curve he's on.
I'm tempted by autofeeders, but I have two cats. If I didn't hover around mealtime, Akbah would wolf his food down and then wolf down Hannah's as well.
Might defeat the purpose. My father in law lives with us, so today I fed them in the am, set up their smaller noonday feed and put it in the fridge. At midday, I rang home and got him to put their lunch down for them. He even hovered and rescued Hannah's bowl before Ak hoovered everything up.
Kind of like a kindly, human autofeeder. Not sure how long he'll be interested to do hovering duties though.
 
Brian said:
Jill- Right now he gets 4 meals per day, 8am (shot time), 2pm, 8pm (shot time), and 12am. He is not enthralled with the wet food and generally takes 2-3 hours of dilly-dallying to finish his portion, so he's usually getting food 3-4 hours before pmps. This could be the difference with the amps- I'm planning on getting an auto feeder for when we're gone in the day, I could then easily push the 12am meal to 2am and still get to sleep. Thanks for your input!
sounds good!

if i may, i'd like to make one more suggestion...
now's not the time to become complacent about getting at least a before bed spot check done... every night. for some reason, lantus and lev kitties are famous for dropping into low numbers at night. i don't know why that is, but it happens often enough for us to have taken notice. if linus decides he's done with this dose... you want to catch it since you have him so tightly regulated. just as an example, my own cat dropped to 39 @ +6.5 the night before last. her nadir *usually* isn't until +12 or later. if i hadn't done that before bed spot check she may have been in trouble while i was sound asleep.

since we have no idea when Mr. P (pancreas) will show up for work... a before bed spot check is a good habit to get into. it'll go a long way in keeping him safe.

just my thoughts...
 
Brian,

I'm curious about the allergy issues you mentioned and the reason for giving pred.

I ask, because all Maui's life she had skin irritation issues - itchy skin, and at times it got so bad she would pull out her fur. The vets had Maui on all kinds of shampoos, cortisone shots, pred, etc.

At no time, did the vets ever test to see what the allergies were. They only treated symptoms.

It wasn't until Maui was diagnosed with diabetes, I found the board and learned about food - Maui was a dry food addict too - and it ranged from the cheap stuff to "high quality" dry food.

When the people on the board told me, remove the dry food and I had to teach Maui to eat wet food. Once she was 100% on wet food, her skin issues resolved themselves.

I never did figure out what the exact ingredient was that caused her problems, it honestly could have just been the dry food itself, how it's processed, what is typically in all dry food. I don't know and it no longer matters. I just learned that dry food causes skin problems for Maui and she no longer eats it.

I tell you this, because it's very possible that Linus has a similar problem and by completely removing all dry food the allergy issue may resolve itself and the need for pred too.

Just something to consider.
 
Wanted to say welcome to you and great you are already home testing...usually that is the first thing we discuss with newbie folks!
:cool:
 
I would second what Hillary just said about allergies and dry food. I have a guy here one of my non-diabetics, he had horrible allergies and would literally tear his face apart it itched so badly, we tried all kinds of dry foods for him and nothing helped except having him live on pred. Then we got our first diabetic, took away the dry food put all 13 on canned Friskies and overnight his allergies disappeared until he got outside and disappeared for 10 months...When we finally got him back his allergies were rampant again, gave him a short course of pred again to help and again got him back on canned food, and again the allergies disappeared and have been gone ever since.

Never figured out exactly what caused them as we had tried before to remove grains (Taste of the Wild dry) as well as various protein sources, in his case it seems to be just something about dry food. So now no one eats dry and Onyx has a beautiful non itchy face.

Mel, Maxwell, Musette & The Fur Gang
 
Thanks for the welcomes everyone.

Jill- sound advice. I know I've been lax in the pre-bedtime test the past few days. I've been good about it whenever shooting a new low number:). I'm aiming to fit a curve in today so wanted to give the ears a little rest. I've no worries they'll heal, but real estate is running low and he's been so predictable (<-well recognized recipe for complacency). Thanks for the gentle reminder though, I'll keep it in mind!

Nat-I have 4 other cats myself. Linus is essentially free fed (4 meals placed out and he can eat at his whim) and the rest aren't. I built him a box with a cat door on it with an electromagnetic latch that will only open for the magnet that's on his collar, one like this. The box is nice and large and made from old windows so he doesn't feel cramped and he's been happily eating out of it for 3 years. It was originally to help portion control him while he lost weight and also try out different foods for his allergies, at the time we could free feed the other cats on a high counter that he was far to fat to make it up to (he hit 23lbs at one point). The others are all meal fed now. There'd be no problems putting a timed feeder in his box.

Hillary- That's basically what happened with Linus. No idea what the allergen is, we tried several different dry foods, steroids, shampoos, etc.. We did make a half-hearted attempt at a canned food but he was just not loving it, so it was back to dry. More complacency on our part as we found a food and dose of pred that was working so we ran with it. At that point we were pretty sure it was the pred doing the trick and not the food though. We knew the diabetes risk of long term pred, but it was better than the alternative. Our vet gave us a free home visit to check his glucose and it was a good thing as we weren't really planning to do a full blood work last fall (we did after of course). Now that he's fully on canned food, we're working to slowly drop the pred and so far so good. Thanks for letting me know how it worked for your Maui, hopefully we'll have similar results:).
 
Hi Brian,

We have been following tight regulation with similar results to yours. We shoot at lower numbers all the time, and the curves have been very safe. Our cat is not on an extremely low carb diet though and we do minimal testing as our cat is very timid and easily stressed. It's important to me to balance treatment with his happiness and quality of life. Balki's numbers now only ever go up to or slightly above 7 mmol/L during storms, rain and stressful events. We have never used steroids on Balki, but cats with steroid induced diabetes have the best chance of remission, so Linus is looking very good! Definitely stick to tight regulation protocol.
 
Paws crossed that its just a dry food problem and with the wet food, you will be able to wean him off the pred in no time and eventually off insulin.
 
well good job! if the lantus folk think it looks good then I wouldn't be too worried! I've never used lantus myself, that's why i thought you should check out the TR board! Good luck with linus!!!!! My main reason for concern shooting at those numbers is that my civvie and OTJ kitty BG vary from 2.5-7 normally!!!
 
Hit a relatively minor setback this weekend, some diarrhea and loss of appetite, but it all seems cool now. Ended up reluctantly skipping a couple of shots as we were concerned about the low food intake leading to possible hypo, happily his numbers didn't go kooky. I know low food+insufficient insulin is a recipe for ketones (he's happily still testing negative), so we fortunately never had to skip consecutive shots. We fell off the wet food wagon and went with some dry food (Royal Canin diabetes stuff, which isn't awesome carb wise and then the low card evo stuff, still not awesome) to get some food in him. He appears back to normal today and we're resuming our usual routine.

Our other 13 year old kitty whos generally the picture of health had the same symptoms that were totally cleared within 36 hours, so it wasn't likely diabetes related but it obviously was more concerning for Linus and it hit him harder. On the plus side I tried giving him some plain cooked chicken which he gobbled up with some enthusiasm and then looked at my fingers wondering if 'human' was 'the other white meat'. I'd like to convert to homemade food a la Dr. Lisa at some time in the future so that's a good sign.

cellosmom said:
well good job! if the lantus folk think it looks good then I wouldn't be too worried! I've never used lantus myself, that's why i thought you should check out the TR board! Good luck with linus!!!!! My main reason for concern shooting at those numbers is that my civvie and OTJ kitty BG vary from 2.5-7 normally!!!

Yep, thanks for your concern:).

Traci and Boomer said:
WOW! I can't believe you built him his own feeding box that only opens for him. That's amazing. You are very imaginative.

Thanks! Here's a picture, the end he's facing is a metal screen for ventilation and the top window is hinged so I can get in it.



We had a similar contraption when we adopted 3 kittens and had our 2 adult cats. We had a box with entry holes small enough for the kittens but not the adults so the kittens could gorge themselves when they wanted.
 

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I had to swipe your picture. :-D It looks like I may need to build something like it for my civvie kitty if I go to a timed feeder for the Poopmeister. Otherwise he'd feast and she wouldn't get much if anything. :sad:

Fantastic idea!
 
It's truly an amazing catbox. I need one for my civvie: Ak gobbles down all her food if he has the chance. If only I had handy carpenter skills. ohmygod_smile
I could make Akbah a dress, or knit him a jumper ("sweater"). But a knitted food enclosure I think just wouldn't cut the mustard.
 
akbahsMum said:
It's truly an amazing catbox. I need one for my civvie: Ak gobbles down all her food if he has the chance. If only I had handy carpenter skills. ohmygod_smile
I could make Akbah a dress, or knit him a jumper ("sweater"). But a knitted food enclosure I think just wouldn't cut the mustard.

If all else fails, take your measurements into your local handy dandy hardware warehouse (Lowe's, Home Depot, maybe even an Ace) and they can cut the wood for you...for a price. Then all you'd have to do is assemble it! :lol:

Yeah, I know. Easier said than done. But seriously, if I could learn to use a circular saw and sander, so can you! I'd much rather crochet, but a food house yarn does not make. :roll:
 
Hi Brian,

Welcome to you and Linus! Linus has great numbers and I absolutely love your feeding box! I could have used one of those myself but now that Racci is the last of my little old ladies she finally eats in peace, though it's lonely for her I'm sure. What a brilliant idea. :smile:

Melanie & Racci
 
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