Preshot 83??!

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christina52388

christina52388

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I haven't started testing Chocolate yet and decided to do her pmps for the hell of it and to get her used to the testing. Shes on 5 units Humulin twice a day. Feeding time is around 730 pm (NY time) and her reading just now was 83! Ummm do I shoot?? She eats a good amount of dry w/d and all of her wet food and we've never had a hypo (as far as I know.)
 
You should never shoot under 200, some do but they are testing and know how their cat reacts. Have you spoke with the vet about the high dose? Don't shoot!
 
I agree, don't shoot. For newbies, we recommend not to shoot with a BG below 200 for any insulin. Just feed as normal, if that is your preshot number, I doubt you will drop any lower. However, since your dose is large and Humulin has steep drops, you should reduce your dose significantly. You have no idea how low her BG level dropped since the last shot, but could have been in the hypo range.

Don't be surprised that when you test again at the next shot, that her BG levels are very high. That is normal when a shot is skipped. But you still want to give a reduced dose at that time.
 
I'm not a newbie in terms of shooting and I had been testing Coconut regularly for about a month but I am a newbie in working with Chocolate. Could not giving her insulin tonight but giving it tomorrow morning if necessary cause a bounce or something? I'm still a little fuzzy on all the aspects of diabetes and insulin. Any recommendations on what to shoot tomorrow based on her range?
 
Also...any ideas why Coconut had so many serious hypos? (3 times in 2 years) Could his appetite have been bad because of growing cancer we hadn't known about and the fact that he wasn't eating well regularly and shooting without testing caused the hypos? I've been told a diabetic cat should have a huge appetite and his appetite wasn't huge at all, for a long time. The only thing he went crazy for was human food. Maybe he just thought he was too good for cat food :roll: (which he was.) Anyway, Chocolate eats well so hopefully this won't be too tricky of a venture. I just don't want something bad to happen if she goes from 5 units to nothing all of a sudden.
 
Christina,
This is NOT a shootable number for Humulin.
Ever.
And since you are just starting testing Chocolate I suggest you start as if you are a complete newbie with her.
Something is wrong with this picture....
Remind me, what does Chocolate eat?
Lori
 
I just read what Chocolate eats...I can just about garantee that Chocolate has had a hypo or 3.
 
Hi Christina!

About diabetes and appetite - an uncontrolled diabetic would have a huge appetite because their body isn't turning that food into energy, and all the nutrients get peed out in the abnormally large volume of urine. When first starting insulin, their appetite is still strong, usually because they are trying to regain any weight lost before they were diagnosed, and their system still isn't functioning at 100%. Once treatment starts and they begin to get regulated, their appetite will usually go back to where it was before they got sick.
With Coconut, if the cancers were screwing up his ability to properly digest his food and convert it to something useful (energy), then although he might have appeared to be eating okay, he wouldn't be getting the benefit of eating that he would had he not been sick. He wouldn't have been getting the BG boost a healthier cat got, so the insulin would have been too much, pushing his BG down, and causing hypos.
Chocolate - since she is used to 5u, then you will almost definitely see a high number in the AM, so expect that. I am so happy that whatever instinct or whatever caused you to check her tonight pre-shot was there for you. Humulin is a fast acting, shorter duration insulin, and shooting 5u into an 83 could have gone really bad, really quickly.
As soon as your vet opens in the morning, maybe call them and discuss dosage and make sure to tell them she was at 83 tonight. Make sure and get an AMPS before talking to them too. If she's lower than 200, my guess is they'll tell you to cut her normal dose way back.

Carl in SC
 
Thanks guys. I didnt' shoot. I'm hesitant to speak to my vet because it's like they obviously don't know the best way to manage a diabetic cat so it's almost a waste of energy and I'll just get invalid information or less than productive instructions. I supposed I'll call anyway. They must be sick of me after dealing with Coconut all month and even today I went back in to get another snippet of his hair because he hadn't gone off to the crematory yet. Touching my baby one last time even though he was cold was comforting. I miss him. But that's getting off topic. Thanks for the advice. Also, Lori I believe it was you who mentioned I should get Chocolate on Pro Zinc. Why would that be recommended over something like Lantus which is much more common? Part of me is scared of Pro Zinc just because of everything with Coconut. Should I mix in some dry EVO with her dry w/d or just leave things as they are for now?
 
I prefer lantus or levemir over pz....I just thought you already had pz and wanted to use it.
As for your vet, is'nt it funny how we feel we are 'bothering' them? We pay them to care for our sick animals...our BELOVED sick animals...we EMPLOY THEM.
Yet, I feel the same way when I deal with vets...oh so thankful and fearful I may be bothering them. ohmygod_smile
 
About vets....
Today I got home from work and there's a message on my machine. Bob's vet called, just to see how he's doing. I mean, I left her a message last week saying everything is going great, and he's got a check up next Monday morning with her. But out of the blue, she calls and lets me know she really cares. She's not perfect, but I'm really one of the lucky ones. I think Bob is one of the clinic's favorites (but they probably say that to all the boys), and I guess they just miss us. :smile:

Carl
 
Honestly, I would strongly consider starting over completely with Chocolate with a new diet and insulin. She's not on the right food or insulin, and likely the extremely high carb food is the only thing that has been keeping her alive on that high dose. I would start hunting for a new vet that is more current with feline diabetes. A vet doesn't have to be perfect and know everything (as it's rare to find a vet who recommends everything right), but you want one that is on board with you testing, and is familiar with a long lasting insulin like Lantus, Levemir, or Prozinc/PZI. In my opinion, Lantus and Levemir work a bit better than PZI, but if PZI is what you have on hand and you can afford right now, it's far better than the insulin Chocolate currently getting. Lantus appears to have a better remission rate, but many cats do go into remission on PZI as well.

W/D is about the worst thing you can feed a diabetic cat, which is one of the reasons I would recommend finding a better vet (not to mention the cost of that stuff!). It is higher in carbs than just about anything you could feed. In fact, I am convinced this is what caused Bandit's diabetes to begin with. Back in the day some vets thought a high fiber diet was helpful for diabetic cats, but it's long since been proven that low carb is the way to go.

I would completely start over with a new insulin (with a 1u starting dose), and a diet change. Hopefully you'll see some major improvements with Chocolate! You can also always post here for advice for Chocolate's treatment--some people here use their vets for the insulin prescriptions only and use the information found here and their home testing results to treat their cats.
 
Thanks all. So I gave her 1 unit of Humulin this morning. She's kinda hard to test so this journey won't be fun or easy. Coco was such a good boy with testing. I put some dry EVO in with her dry w/d so she can get used to it and not have any effect on her stomach or anything negative. What would any of you recommend I do, since starting over does seem like the best idea. Should I give her only a certain amount of dry to leave out for the day? Is there a particular brand of wet I should use? I have FF classics. Her weight seems to be perfect so losing/gaining isn't desired. Am I better off getting her on ProZinc or waiting and speaking to my vet to see if he will prescribe Lantus? Or should I switch to Pro right now in the meantime? If so....do I just give her next dose in Pro ZInc? Are there any effects to switching? (Obviously besides her bg)....questions questions questions. I just want to do it right the first time rather than end up in a bad scenario. Regarding finding a new vet, I feel like most of them really don't have good information. The one we went to before we go to now had Coconut on 31 YES THIRTY ONE units of Humulin. Cue his first hypo. If I had known what I know now I would have made that vet pay the emergency bills for that. I think I can get much more useful and accurate information here. :smile:
 
Christina,
think of starting fresh.
test before each pre shot.
switch insulins at start at 1 unit.
get a mid cycle
prepare soon to do a curve at home.
wean the food down.
do you need a food list, i can steer you there.
also, i offered a rice sock for the ear but need you address.
and start a spread sheet,
check mine as example.
Lori
 
Thanks Lori, a food list would be appreciated. I PM'd you my address earlier did you get it? I have also already attached her SS in my signature. I hope Tom is doing well today
 
If I had to give insulin again, it would be lantus or levemir, not prozinc. while prozinc works for some cats, it seems to require more work. As a working mom, I don't have time to finesse.
 
Christina the only time I got your addy was in my email when you had ordered a newbie kit (which I'm so sorry you did not get... but those are deleted once kits are sent out. So no, I never received your pm with an addy....I just took another look. Altho I tend to clean out my pm box regularly too as it gets too full and then won't accept more mail.
Sooooo send again and I will post the link to all the foods to your thread.
 
http://binkyspage.tripod.com/canfood.html

check out both new and old food lists....look under carb count. get anything 7 carbs and under.
also, important!!!! always have a can or 2 of high carb canned food. 18 carbs or above. you may need this one day.

if you can print this out and take it to the store with you, then you will resemble many of us when we go shopping for kitty foods :lol:

and yes on lev. or lantus....unless you are spent financially the pz is better than what you've been using.
 
Christina
if you click on the link in my sig it will take you to a page with links to both the old and new canned food lists. Print them both and carry them with you to the grocery store...
carl
 
i just checked chocolates ss and be still my heart as i imagine the types of numbers this baby has seen on that obscene dose...bless his heart. and the bounces!!!!
christina...do NOT go back to this vet. his diabetic knowledge is that of a lamp shade. so sorry.
you have us now and likely that will be all you'll need, only we can't give you prescriptions.
so if you need to go back to him fro scripts just nod your head 'yes, yes, yes' to whatever he says then promptly forget it the minute you leave his clinic.
HORRORS!
 
I have a disagreement with the comment on insulin. While the L's are excellent, ProZinc is a very forgiving insulin and very easy to use. Some people, for whatever reasons, have difficulty with the L's. My cat had DKA three times and I changed over to L and she crashed in 10 days back into DKA, not the L's fault but there are many cats that do not do well on it.

Pzi is a very good insulin and I really feel that we don't toot our horns enough but to infer that it is not as good or harder to use .... may be scaring some newbies who are using and is not a true statement.

Nancy and Payne
(5 months from last DKA and doing REALLY well on pzi)
 
Thanks all. I guess I'll try out the ProZinc and see how it goes. Lori your comment on my vet having the diabetic knowledge of a lamp shade made me laugh, although it's not a laughing matter, the thought was funny :lol:
 
Jen & Squeak said:
If I had to give insulin again, it would be lantus or levemir, not prozinc. while prozinc works for some cats, it seems to require more work. As a working mom, I don't have time to finesse.
Click to expand...
I don't know that I would agree with that. However I only have experience with pzi. From what I have read here, it seems the L's are harder to use. PZI seems to be much more forgiving with respect to dose adjustments and the rigid 12 hour dose schedule. With my insane schedule I would never have been able to use the L's correctly.
but every bean is different
Carl..
 
Nancy is right on the pro zinc. It is more forgiving in that it is not as reliant on a strict 12/12 schedule.
But there have been a few problems figuring this new form of pzi out for a while now.
Either way, I would have to disagree with those who say it is MORE problematic to use, when actually it is LESS problematic to use as you are not as dependant on a multitude of mid cycles to know what to shoot.
Thank you Nancy.
Lori
 
I too use Prozinc and do so out of choice. Prozinc is a very forgiving insulin, and while it might not meet the needs of every cat--for many it is the perfect insulin. I have watched kitties come to PZI ISG and go OTJ--so , Yes, it does happen. Doesn't it Carl?

Good Luck with Chocolate!
 
sorry to ruffle feathers, I'm just saying what I've observed. It has appeared to me that prozinc (not BCP form of PZI) is tougher than some options. Lantus appears to require work as well but I like what I've seen of it. Levemir appears to have more flexibility. But I'm not an expert. Just offering my opinion. For me, I would look for whatever has the best track record and appears to be relatively easy to understand and work with.
 
At this point, Lev and Lantus are likely the superior insulins. And Jen, I don't think you ruffled feathers, it's just not the reason why pro zinc is not the best choice. It is easier to use...but many of us ex-patriots of this insulin have found the L insulins to be more effective AND more work.
Does that make sense?
Hope,
Lori
 
not a problem, I am always open to learning more.

Hopefully the OP can have better luck with Prozinc, and I agree that the vet sounds like they need to go back to school :(
 
where is Bayville in relation to NYC?

I ask, cause I work in NYC and there are some great vets that could really be helpful.

Also, if you have prozinc - then honestly, switch to it. Last summer, I had a cat stay with me for a month on prozinc (my intro to that insulin) - and wowee, the results were astonishing - in a good way. About two months after giving the cat back to his human, he was in remission.

He also was a very carb sensitive cat, and I could control his BG's pretty easily with the carb % I fed him. What I did and suggested the owner do as well, is take a sharpie and label all the cans with the carb %. This way, she wouldn't have to guess what to give when. It made the process of feeding based off BG results so much easier.

Of course, this cat was eating fancy feast and friskies canned foods.

Don't discount the use of prozinc, it's an excellent insulin and one that will allow more flexibility with your schedule than lantus. And yes, I used lantus on Maui, so I am familiar with both insulins.
 
Hillary that is a great idea writing the carb % on the cans..such simple things I just never think of lol...NYC would be a bit of a hike for a vet visit and Chocolate hasn't been in a long time and she's on the scaredy cat/anti-social spectrum so a long drive to NYC wouldn't be very good for her. To get to Bayville you would get off the LIE at exit 41 (Hicksville) or 44 (Syosset) ..anywhere around there..Glen Cove....It's a tiny town no one's ever heard of :roll:
 
Actually, yes, I've heard of Glen Cove - never been. But now have a general idea where you are. I don't know vets in the area - but we do have other Long Island peeps who may be able to help.

Start a new thread with the subject - Glen Cove Long Island - vet recommendation needed and let's see what that brings out.

And yes, we have lots of simple tricks for just about everything.

How about changing to the prozinc and lets see if we can get your cat in better numbers.
 
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