? Potato Starch - crazy BG spikes?

[Millie and Cooper]

So the last two cycles, Cooper has gone into the yellows both times. Yay! We did a couple of things differently. First @Marje and Gracie made sure we were shooting a 45 degree angle. We were shooting too flat. Thank you! Also, we fed only Fancy Feast pate both times.

Usually Cooper gets a mix of low carb canned food including Weruva ones that are under 10%, and closer to 5% but that still have potato or tapioca starch. The food he had tonight is about 7% and has potato starch.

I haven't tested an hour after food before because he's always been so high, I didn't think it would really tell us anything. But since his last two cycles have been pretty good and it's not time for a dose change yet, I thought it would be a good time to test after eating. His BG shot up over 100 points! Wow!

Anyone else's kitties have a big spike from potato/tapioca starch? I know the shot is wearing off from the last cycle and that he also could be bouncing some. But dang.

 

[Bron and Sheba (GA)]

I use Weruva for Sheba although most of her food is home prepared. I use Weruva for the carbs. Pumpkin Lickin Chicken has tapioca starch in it and I havent noticed it causing a spike with Sheba. It is 12.4% carbs and I use it to bring up the BG. I don't find it a strong carb at all.
I think if they say a food is 8% or6% they would put in the appropriate amount of tapioca starch to get that level of carbs. Unless Cooper is having a reaction to it.....I wouldn't think it was the culprit. But I could be wrong.
See what others think.

 

[Chris/China (GA)/Garfield]

I think it could be some bounce (he's bounced into the 500's before after getting into yellow) and depending on how big a meal he had, it's not totally out of the question for a food spike to be 100 points.

Really about all you can do is keep experimenting with the foods and keep good notes on how Cooper reacts. Some cats can handle starches/carbs better than others

 

[Millie and Cooper]

Thanks Chris, that's good to know. He did clean his plate, so he had a good sized meal. I'm going to do FF for his next meal and test after an hour. The sucky thing about FF is the high phosphorus value. He is supposedly CKD, so we have to watch that. But he was diagnosed with both FD and CKD right about the same time, so the dehydration from the FD could be causing some elevations in the kidney numbers. So hard to know.

 

[Bron and Sheba (GA)]

Did the vet get a urine test done on the specific gravity.? As long as you are not giving a lot of extra fluids at the time, that is usually a good indicator if the kidneys are working properly. A low SG is usually an indicator of CRD.
Sheba also has early CRD and FF is really high in phosphorus.
She can also get a big food spike at around +2 on low carb food.
Have you tried the cats in the kitchen Weruva brand. I use Fowl Ball and Fric a Zee and they are 4 % and 2% carbs. There are several others in that brand of Weruva, all low phosphorus and I don't think that have tapioca starch. Certainly the two I use do not have it.

 

[Marje and Gracie]

I also use Pumpkin Lickin Chicken and I use it solely to slow Gracie down and also bring her up. So, yes, she gets a pretty big spike from it depending on how much of it I give her. Any food with tapioca or potato starch will most likely increase the BG but ECID how much...depends on how carb sensitive the kitty is.

Looks to me like he has some big insulin poop out. If they go up that fast at the end of a cycle, it's usually BIPO + he's got some added bounce from those numbers which would have been blue on a human meter

The carbs can also slow down the effects of the insulin especially at/after nadir.

Progress!!!! I'd hold onto this dose longer than you have been. Let's see what he does!

 

[Bron and Sheba (GA)]

@Marje and Gracie what does big insulin poop out mean? Because Sheba sometimes has it. For example yesterday she was +10 113 and at +12 293
Sorry Millie, not meaning to hijack your condo.

 

[Millie and Cooper]

@Bron and Sheba, you're not hijacking. All questions are great! I am still learning and trying to soak up as much info from you experts as I can. I will revisit the Cats in the Kitchen brand with Cooper. He is SO finicky. I know I have tried those two flavors you mentioned and he didn't care for him. But since his appetite changes daily, maybe he would give them another try. Also, I just looked back at his blood panels from the last few months and each time, the urine specific gravity was still in the normal range but on the lower end. So yea, he probably does truly have some kidney issues. We just took him for another urinalysis/culture yesterday, so will have those results soon. However, he's been getting fluids for the CKD and diabetes, so I'm sure it will be lower from those.

@Marje and Gracie, yes I want to see what this dose does! This morning was the 5th shot, so maybe hold for 8 this time unless his numbers get really bad?

 

[Bron and Sheba (GA)]

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/food-links.133016/
Here is a link to lots of good information on food. Not sure where you live but you should be able to find information for the country you live in. It lists low phosphorus foods.
Also http://www.felinecrf.org
This is an excellent site for all the information you need about CRD

 

[Deanna & Billie]

Hi! I have noticed the same thing with Billie and Weruva flavors that have starch. For example, according to Dr. Pierson's chart/info from Weruva, steak frites is 5% carb. But it has potato starch and Billie's BG has spiked like crazy every time she has eaten it, so I feel like it must be higher than 5%. Maybe that number is outdated, or maybe their recipe is off.

If Cooper likes other food that doesn't contain starch, I would stick to that and see if it makes a difference. Billie has done well with FF classic pate, tiki cat, hound & gatos, instinct, starch-free weruva flavors, and wild calling. Right now she's on a big FF chicken kick. I hope you and Cooper have a good day!!

 

[Marje and Gracie]

@Marje and Gracie what does big insulin poop out mean?

Lack of duration. It can happy for a variety of reasons.....less absorption of a shot, influence of food (especially after nadir), not enough insulin, etc. everyone assumes when their cat zooms up really fast, as Sheba did, that is a bounce. A bounce could be contributing but usually a really fast skyrocket is often because the insulin has lost its duration for whatever reason.

@Marje and Gracie, yes I want to see what this dose does! This morning was the 5th shot, so maybe hold for 8 this time unless his numbers get really bad?

I'm going to reserve the right to change my thoughts, here, after looking longer at his SS and the time he's been in higher numbers and that he's starting to make progress. Considering the modified protocol below and Table 3 of the 2013 TR protocol, if he were my kitty, I think I'd increase 0.25u after six cycles unless you see numbers under 200 on your AT2. If he just dips his toes under 200 and goes right back up, I'd still think about increasing to 4.5u after a total of six cycles. If he comes down tonight and stays under 200 a few hours, I'd consider giving him ten cycles.

• After 3 days (6 consecutive cycles)... if nadirs are greater than 200, but less than 300 increase the dose by 0.25 unit.

What do you think?

Edited to add: others might also have different thoughts for you to consider.

 

[Millie and Cooper]

@Marje and Gracie, I agree with you. I have a feeling he's going to stay in the yellows tonight with last night's spike, but we shall see what tonight holds.