Possible Hypo / Very strange Situation - First post :(

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Toki

Toki

Member Since 2014
Hello,
I was really hoping my first post here would be under better terms, but sadly it does not seem this way. My name is Nathan, i have a wife and 4 cats all of which i love to death, But Toki is my best friend, I need him.

Toki has always been a large cat, around 18 pounds the last time he was at the vet. Seeing how heavy he was we decided to switch him to a weight loss food. All our cats ate dry food at the time, and so we went with Blue Buffalo weight control food. About a month into this switch there was something off about toki. He wasn't cleaning himself and his fur looked matted, He looks like he was losing a lot of weight but not in his belly where the fat was, like a sickly lose of weight, Always tired, and almost looked yellow around the eyes.

So April 2nd we took him to the Vet, and we were told his blood levels were 389 and that my buddy was diabetic. I never felt so much emotions at once. Guilt, sadness, furious, and defeated. So they gave him a shot of insulin and gave us the talk, which i will save you guys from as i sure you know it, and sent us home.

All day he never left my sight. I thought him getting that shot would make him feel better, but all he did was lay around, and when i tried to feed him, he would gag. Around 12 o clock at night i tried to feed him and he ate like it was his last meal. I mean i never seen him eat so fast and much.

The next day we brought him in and the vet said his levels were at 68, and that it was a little low but it was pretty much confirmed he has diabetes. So we left him there for the day and we went and bought a blood tester for at home. When we went to pick him up the vet said that he gave him one insulin shot that morning, but then his levels were rapidly declining and were at 40 so he received no more insulin that day. We bought my buddy home and monitored him the rest of the night again. Same exact results, He was sick all day until 12 at night when he ate.

The next day we brought him in and the vet wanted to keep him again! I didn't want to but i figured he would do better than i did. So he stayed there until 2 PM that day, and when i picked him up the vets said he received no insulin as his levels were around 90 the whole day, So this is almost 1 day and a half with no insulin at this point. So i took him home and i was to now monitor him myself that night, and all day tomorrow and to give him a call in the afternoon. This is my log book for his levels for the first night of monitoring:

BGL | Time between eating and test | Time of Test | Food
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
98 | 1/2 - 1 hour after eating | 4/04 5:00pm | Regular
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116 | 5 Mins after eating | 4/04 9:00pm | Regular

So i thought, This is great! 2 days no insulin and his levels are fine! Maybe it was the food switch that caused it? (By the way, if you look up blue buffalo reviews on any site but there own, its horrible. There has been other reports of diabetes and even death from kidney failure from it!) We decided to get off blue buffalo and go straight to Fancy Feasts Classics. So the next day comes and my first test at 12 PM was 66 BGL. So i called the vet and let him know, he says he couldn't explain it, that he may not have diabetes or he may be in a "Honeymoon" stage and to watch him over the week and call him on Friday. I was starting to get so happy, But was soon met with my nightmare. 5 o clock rolled around, of course the vet just closed. Ill let the log do the talking from here:

BGL | Time between eating and test | Time of Test | Food
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
66 | 1/2 - 1 hour after eating | 4/05 12:00pm| Regular
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24 | 4 hours after eating | 4/05 4:00pm | Regular
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29 | 15 Mins after eating | 4/05 5:00pm | Regular
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43 | 1 Hour after eating | 4/05 6:00pm | Regular
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56 | 15 Mins after Small Syrup | 4/05 6:36pm | Syrup
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40 | Checking levels | 4/05 7:39pm | Regular
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
64 | food&Syrup at 8:15pm | 4/05 9:22pm | Regular / Syrup

And his levels keep going down and down until i have to mix in a ton of syrup in his food to bring it back up. I don't understand this, He hasn't had a insulin shot in almost 3 days, yet his levels keep shooting down. Is it because we have them on low carb food now because we were told it was diabetes? Should we go back to a high carb food regulated now? This is so scary, as i here people say 40 is dangerous but our cat has been 20 twice now..

Todays readings are the same:

42 9:14AM - hour after he ate
25 12:55PM - 4 Hours after he ate
58 2:13PM - Gave Syrup in food again prior

It seems our cat is looking like the opposite of diabetes, and its scaring me bad. It seems though toki isnt found of the wet cat food and only ets about 1/4 a can of classic a sitting, of which the last 2 days we have fed him about 4 times a day because how little he is eating at once. Could this be the reason its so low?

Im sorry this is so hard to read, It hard to type at this stage.

Funny thing is we were on Meow mix, which is suppose to be horrible, but we neveer had these issues until we went to the "Best dry cat food Blue Buffalo" and then all of a sudden our cat is diabetic, but then again not really with these levels?

Please help :(
 
First question: what insulin was being given? It is very rare to see numbers that low after no insulin has been given for more than a day (3 days now with no insulin?)...but not entirely impossible if it were a depot insulin like Lantus or Levemir.

Next question: what meter are you using to test?
 
They used Prozinc, But i also need to stress he has only has 2 shots ever, and the last one was 3 days ago a little more. Is it perhaps he isn't diabetic, they made a mistake and the insulin messed him up?

We are using a 20 dollar one from walgreens called TrueTrack.
 
Um... not a good meter for cats as it may read lower than the actual number in cats.

Take a look at the following to understand the glucose numbers in cats better. I don't think he is diabetic.

We suggest using an inexpensive human glucometer with pet-specific reference numbers. One many of us use is the WalMart Relion Confirm, or Confirm Micro, which is also sold at American Diabetes Wholesale as as the Arkray USA Glucocard 01 or 01 Mini (same manufacturer - Arkray USA). It uses a tiny blood droplet and the cost is significantly lower for test strips (like $0.36 each).

Comparing a human glucometer to a pet-specific glucometer is like reading temperature in Celsius vs Fahrenheit. Both are correct. You just need to know the reference ranges to interpret what the numbers mean.

[Glucose reference ranges are unsubstantiated and have been removed by Moderator]


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *​
Examples of using the chart:

Ex. You are a new insulin user and you test your cat before giving insulin. The test is 300. It probably is safe to give insulin.

Ex. You are an established user of Lantus, following the Tight Regulation protocol. You've tested around +5 to +7 to spot the nadir. It is 200 mg/dL. You probably need to increase the dose, following the instructions for the protocol.

Ex. Your cat is acting funny. The eyes are a bit dilated. You are concerned and test the glucose. The number is 35 mg/dL. ACK! The cat may be in a hypoglycemic state. You quickly follow the HYPO protocol linked in the glucose reference values chart. (which we really, really, suggest you print out and post on your refrigerator.)
 
ProZinc is an "in-and-out" insulin so it's highly unlikely that it's caused these numbers after 3 days without insulin.

The TrueTrak has been reported by others as giving false readings for cats, so that may be part of the problem. If you have a Walmart close by, I would suggest running over there and grabbing a ReliOn Micro/Confirm or Prime with matching test strips. You don't have to calibrate it or anything and can use it straight out of the box. That will give you a better read for what Toki's numbers are really at.

No, with these low numbers without insulin means he's not diabetic or that the food switch alone has done enough that insulin is no longer needed.
 
Toki said:
... we never had these issues until we went to the "Best dry cat food Blue Buffalo" and then all of a sudden our cat is diabetic, but then again not really with these levels?... (
Click to expand...

You may not always observe the symptoms of diabetes unless vigilant.
- excessive thirst - most folks don't measure the water intake
- excessive urination - normal is around 1/2 cup a day when eating canned food
- excessive hunger - if you routinely left out a big bowl of dry food, you wouldn't notice
- weight loss - fur can cover this up a fair bit
- difficulty standing up completely due to neuropathy - this one is harder to miss. the cat can't stand up completely.
 
The above chart is really quite confusing because as i can see it, it seems that even from that chart my cat would still be in hypo.

So, im going to run to walmart right now to go get the said meter. Poor toki needs to know what his real numbers are.

His ears are so sore from all the pricks :( Cant say im good at it yet either

EDIT: I hope i havent been giving toki mass amounts of sugar and hurting him. The vet told me this was a ok meter :/
 
BJM said:
Toki said:
... we never had these issues until we went to the "Best dry cat food Blue Buffalo" and then all of a sudden our cat is diabetic, but then again not really with these levels?... (
Click to expand...

You may not always observe the symptoms of diabetes unless vigilant.
- excessive thirst - most folks don't measure the water intake
- excessive urination - normal is around 1/2 cup a day when eating canned food
- excessive hunger - if you routinely left out a big bowl of dry food, you wouldn't notice
- weight loss - fur can cover this up a fair bit
- difficulty standing up completely due to neuropathy - this one is harder to miss. the cat can't stand up completely.
Click to expand...

I see. But it was just so weird on the timing. And im still worried because i don't know what could case this. If my cat isn't diabetic then im just really wondering what would cause nearly a 400 BGL and also keytones in his urine the day we bought him to the vet, and now he is lower than normal? (perhaps not if the meter is wrong, In the car now to get the new meter)
 
He could have an infection that was elevating BGs and causing hyperglycemia. He might even be diabetic but the food switch was enough. Once we see the numbers from a different meter, we'll be able to get a better picture of what is going on.

And don't worry about the ears. They look terrible the first couple of weeks of testing but then clear up.
 
So i just tested with the new meter and he got a 175. I swear it is the best feeling in the world to see a 3 digit number for one. 175 is a little high, but as expected with all the sugar i've been giving him.

But can i be absolutely sure this is the correct result, and the other is not? If so that meter is horrible :(

I want to thank you guys for your help on this, its so nice to have someone with experience help me with this.
 
A couple other tidbits:
- a change to low carb canned may reduce the glucose 100 mg/dL
- vet stress can raise the glucose from 100 to 180 mg/dL (another reason we encourage home testing)

so up to 280 mg/dL can be due to diet and stress

ALL home glucometers are allowed to read within 20% of what a lab test would get. That means any specific test represents a range of numbers from 80% of the test value to 120% of the test value. Once its over 300 mg/dL, high is high and the specific number really doesn't matter much because you will want to intervene to reduce it in some way.
 
BJM said:
A couple other tidbits:
- a change to low carb canned may reduce the glucose 100 mg/dL
- vet stress can raise the glucose from 100 to 180 mg/dL (another reason we encourage home testing)

so up to 280 mg/dL can be due to diet and stress

ALL home glucometers are allowed to read within 20% of what a lab test would get. That means any specific test represents a range of numbers from 80% of the test value to 120% of the test value. Once its over 300 mg/dL, high is high and the specific number really doesn't matter much because you will want to intervene to reduce it in some way.
Click to expand...

wow that is quite a large number just from simple things. Thank you! I just hope it isnt this "honeymoon" period my vet is talking about and that he truely is well
 
The TrueTrak doesn't seem to work well when testing felines, so the readings might be well outside that +/-20% variance when used on cat blood. Stick with the ReliOn for now and try to get a couple of tests in later tonight to see if the number continues to go up or starts to go down again after the high carb starts to wear off.
 
Thank you so much everyone. ill keep the numbers posted, and god willing, everything will be okay :)
 
We find it really helpful to record the glucose tests in a spreadsheet/grid.

Instructions are here

Understanding the spreadsheet/grid:

The colored headings at the top are the ranges of glucose values. They are color-coded to clue you in as to meaning.

Each day is 1 row. Each column stores different data for the day.

From left to right, you enter
the Date in the first column
the AMPS (morning pre-shot test) in the 2nd column
the Units given (turquoise column)

Then, there are 11 columns labeled +1 through +11
If you test at +5 (5 hours after the shot), you enter the test number in the +5 column
If you test at +7 (7 hours after the shot), you enter the test number in the +5 column
and so on.

Halfway across the page is the column for PMPS (evening pre-shot)
To the right is another turquoise column for Units given at the evening shot.

There is second set of columns labeled +1 through +11
If you snag a before bed test at +3, you enter the test number in the +3 column.

We separate day and night numbers like that because many cats go lower at night.

It is merely a grid for storing the info; no math required.
 
Hey guys,

Sorry for so many questions here, Trying to learn as much as i can without posting. But this morning toki's levels were 56 on the better meter, Now toki has been off insulin for 4 days (little over) and only ever had 2 shots in his life. I did read of the chart that low numbers can be a normal thing for a cat that isn't on insulin. Can i assume him in that category now?

Im in the process of learning the excel sheet to keep his numbers on so i can better help people read his numbers.

His BGL before i went to bed last night was 225, but im sure this was from me giving him high amounts of glucose yesterday because of the fake meter. It just seems my little guy is all over the charts.

Thanks everyone for the amount of time you put here, This is a miracle forum. Such selfless acts here that i wish it was this way everywhere.
 
No apologies needed. Keep those questions coming please. We want to make sure you have the information and support you need to help your cat get better.

Would you be willing to add a few more tidbits of information to your user signature, to help us out a bit? It would help us to help you better.

We like to see your first name, cats name, age and sex, diagnosis date, insulin used, meter used for testing, food being fed, any complicating medical conditions your cat may have. This info goes in the User Control Panel, Profile Tab, Edit Signature box, type it in and then submit to save.

Now on to answer your question. Low numbers can be normal for diabetic cats off insulin. Normal non-diabetic cat BG readings range from 40-130 on a human glucometer. Of course, there is always the oddball cat the walks to a different drummer and can be lower than that, in the 30's. ECID. Every Cat is Different.

If you can, it's a good idea to continue the twice daily home testing for at least 2 weeks. We want to see numbers in the 40-130 range, with most of those numbers under 100 if you are testing using a human glucometer, for 14 days. Then we could consider Toki to be OTJ (off-the-juice, insulin being the juice). If you get a reading >100, then test again later at around 3 to 4 hours later, in the +3 to +4 hour timeframe.

Sometimes, just that food change to a lower carb food can make a huge difference. Looks like that may be the case for Toki.
 
Thank you so much for your reply. I will continue to monitor him and keep a excel of his levels. If another emergency arises, i will post here :)

I don't know if you guys mark threads solved, or something? But you guys did more for me than i ever thought possible, and got me through the weekend.

Thank you
 
We don'y really have a " post resolved" notation, but please got to you first post and edit it by removing the "911" icon. That way we won't come looking for the emergency when it has been resolved.

One last thing to keep in mind. Try to test before feeding. Food starts to raise the BG about 20 minutes after the cat eats. If you are doing an OTJ trial ( not that Toki was really "on" the jusice!) Try to be sure there has been no food for at least 2 hours before the test. We call this a "clean test" w/ no food influence.

As Deb said, some cats just normally have lower than usual BGs. If a cat is receiving no insulin it is unlikely to go hypo, but never say never w/ a cat. :roll: Keep monitoring and looking for the hypo signs, but sugary intervention is probably not necessary.

Canned food is really better for all 4 of your babies. The FF pates are great, but there are others available too. Here is a chart put together by Dr. Lisa Pierson, one of our advisors. Some of the foods have been changed in the last year and a half (e.g. Merrick has changed and not for the better!), but it's the most current comparison out there. Try to feed foods that are less than 10% carbs. All your kittehs will thank you! (BTW you will notice she doesn't even mention dry foods on her list, 'nuff said!)
 
Please keep us posted Nathan on how she is doing. Hoping Toki continues to do well and does not need any insulin.
 
Ann & Tess said:
We don'y really have a " post resolved" notation, but please got to you first post and edit it by removing the "911" icon. That way we won't come looking for the emergency when it has been resolved.

One last thing to keep in mind. Try to test before feeding. Food starts to raise the BG about 20 minutes after the cat eats. If you are doing an OTJ trial ( not that Toki was really "on" the jusice!) Try to be sure there has been no food for at least 2 hours before the test. We call this a "clean test" w/ no food influence.

As Deb said, some cats just normally have lower than usual BGs. If a cat is receiving no insulin it is unlikely to go hypo, but never say never w/ a cat. :roll: Keep monitoring and looking for the hypo signs, but sugary intervention is probably not necessary.

Canned food is really better for all 4 of your babies. The FF pates are great, but there are others available too. Here is a chart put together by Dr. Lisa Pierson, one of our advisors. Some of the foods have been changed in the last year and a half (e.g. Merrick has changed and not for the better!), but it's the most current comparison out there. Try to feed foods that are less than 10% carbs. All your kittehs will thank you! (BTW you will notice she doesn't even mention dry foods on her list, 'nuff said!)
Click to expand...

Thank you for all the information! We tested toki's levels today twice in between meals. One was 52 and other was 56. So i take it he must just have low numbers? But the weird thing is after feeding with for the afternoon his levels were 48, Which took me by surprise, but with how up and down things have been the last few days i guess not too surprising.

And i plan to keep our little buddies on wet canned food, FF classics at that. They seem inexpensive for 60 cents a can, but the you see how small they really are. And with 4 cats, i went from spending around 17 dollars for a bag of food that lasted about a month, to a 24 canned box of wet food for around the same price that will last me a couple of days with 2 cans per cat a day (Which is under even what the can says). But if that is what it takes to keep them healthy i will happily pay it, as i took the responsibility of having 4 cats. But i will take any advice on feeding 4 cats healthly for cheaply ill take it :) ill start with the chart you linked me to.

Thanks so much
 
Deb & Wink said:
Please keep us posted Nathan on how she is doing. Hoping Toki continues to do well and does not need any insulin.
Click to expand...

I really appreciate this, and Toki does too! I will continue to post here later in the future and hopefully things start to show a pattern and i find his regular level, and i can calm down. I hoping by now i can start to believe he isn't diabetic.

I really envy a lot of you. I about dropped to the floor when i heard the news. It was never a question on if i was going to treat him, but more of if i was able to do it. I thought i would do everything wrong, and end up hurting him more than good. My worse fear was to come home one day from work to see him not moving. I actually haven't been to work since the news i have been so afraid, As i said, he is my best friend so i couldn't think of a better way to spend my sick days.

I'm so glad that he might not be diabetic, but with all of the kind people here i ask why am i so lucky. I really hope that one day in the near future everyone of your friends becomes healthy and is OTJ, as you guys say. I hope they all live happy lifes, knowing they have owners that care as much as you guys do. People have called me silly, and even my step father yelled at my wife for spending so much money on a cat and to put it down (As if it was his money) and told us not to be stupid. But in my mind the strongest person is the one who can sallow the news, and give up personal time in their life to save their cats life. I don't see a cat as an animal, i see him or her as family.

You guys really are the best.
 
I understand where you're coming from. Michelangelo was only 6 months old and a feral rescue kitten when we got the diagnosis. Most people said to get another cat and that he would probably have all sorts of other issues and this was just the start of problems. I ignored them because that's just not who I am. If I have the ability to help another living creature, I will do so. Mikey will be two years old on the 13th and will have been diabetic for a year and a half. He's had no other problems and the diabetes hasn't even been a problem for us. The only change in his life is that he get stuck with a needle twice a day. The ear-testing, he thinks of it as a fun way to bribe treats out of me. He's healthy and happy and playful. I couldn't ask for anything more. And because of his "sugar intolerance," I finally learned about appropriate cat nutrition and was able to get both him and Henry onto proper diets when they were still young, not to mention meeting all the fabulous people on this forum. :YMHUG:

If you check out the food chart on catinfo.org, you might is some cheaper low carb options to feed your whole crew. I feed both Mikey and Henry the Friskies Special Diet. It's around fifty cents per 5.5oz can so it's one of the most inexpensive options.
 
Nathan,

You may never know for sure if Toki was misdiagnosed as being diabetic or if he was diabetic and the switch to a lower carb food had a dramatic impact and put Toki into normal BG range. Since you don't know for sure, it's better to treat Toki as if he was diabetic and continue with the low carb food for the rest of his life. "Once a diabetic, always a diabetic." He would simply be considered to be a diet controlled diabetic.

Since Toki is not getting any insulin, there is no danger of hypoglycemia. Those low readings in the 50's are normal BG range. I occasionally test my 2 civies (civilians, non-diabetic) cats and they usually have readings ranging from the 40's to the 70's.

Many of the Friskies pate style foods are a lower cost alternative to the Fancy Feast classic pates. The Friskies tend to be in the 6% to 11% carb range. Personally, I don't feed the Mixed Grill (11%b carbs) or the Country Style dinner (10% carbs) to my diabetic cat Wink. They come in 13 oz cans for about $1. Like Kpassa, I also use the Friskies Special Diet food for my diabetic cat but also feed some of the Fancy Feast classic pates. My civies get the Friskies mostly with an occasional treat of the Fancy Feast.

You may want to continue testing Toki for a couple of weeks, as if you were doing an OTJ trial. We test twice a day, roughly 12 hours apart before feeding. If the BG readings continue to be in the 40-130 range, you are in the range of a normal diabetic cat and that should help to alleviate your worries some. Readings that stay under 100 are better to see. Creeping into the higher normal range, in the 110 to 130, would be a reason to do a bit more testing.

Sorry to hear your stepfather does not "get it". We certainly do understand the deep affection and loving bond we develop with our furry family members. We'll support you all the way in your decision to help Toki.
 
Thanks for all the kind words guys and information :) its great!

But i am a tad worried. We just tested, which it has been since 9:00AM that he has eaten, and his levels are 38. Is this getting to low?
 
If he is not on insulin, he shouldn't be able to go too low and hypo. There are rare conditions that make cats drop too low without insulin, but we shouldn't go looking for elephants if we hear hooves…. :mrgreen: If you feed him a little, he should go back up. Most cats run in the 40s normally but some run lower. 40-12- off insulin is the "normal" range.

I buy Friskies pates at Costco. They run about 40 cents a can. If you are a member, it's a good deal.
 
My Nikki ran in the 30's when she first came off insulin. I started giving her smaller, more frequent meals and that seemed to keep her a bit more level in the 50's. At the moment she gets 4 meals a day and generally is in the high 40's. As long as Toki doesn't have any unusual behaviors/symptoms/etc, he may just run on the low end of normal!
 
Go back up to the post on glucose reference ranges and look at the section colored in blue.
There is a note that off of insulin, readings in the 30s can be normal, barring some other medical condition.
 
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