Possible hypo 5/14, Tux, AMPS 219 PMPS 57

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Julie & Tux

Member Since 2014
This morning Tux's AMPS were 219 and I gave him his normal 2 unit dose at 9 am (his normal time). I just did his PMPS and it was 57. I tried to test again to see if it was an error but I can't get his ears to bleed enough to test correctly. I'm going to try and test again as soon as I finish typing. Other than him really wanting some food, he is acting normal. I gave him some of his regular 2% food then read I should hold off on feeding to see if the numbers rise so I pulled his food. What now? I'm not shooting until I know it's safe.
 
you're doing fine, julie.

would you get another test in about 15 minutes and see if he's rising yet? don't feed him yet.

you can take off the 911. i'll stay with you.
 
I've highlighted some parts below from the "Shooting and Handling Low Numbers" sticky:

HOW TO DEAL WITH LOW PRESHOT NUMBERS

**** The following guidelines apply to the Tight Regulation Protocol for Lantus or Levemir ****


You just tested your cat’s preshot number, and there is a much lower than usual number staring back at you. What do you do?

There is no one-size-fits all answer, but there are some general guidelines. As with everything else, each cat is different (ECID) and each caregiver is different too.

The short answer is that most kitties can be shot at +12, almost regardless of the number, once you are data ready to do so. The exception is that shooting 30s or 40s is not recommended for most cats, so if the cat is less than 50 then usually the best option is to wait until they are above 50 to shoot. While you’re waiting, the shed is draining, so you want to get the insulin in as soon as it makes sense to shoot.

If it is your first time shooting green, then we will likely suggest that you stall the first time, even if the number is 80-100. That will let you collect data on what your cat will do when you stall. One thing you can do if you are having a low cycle is to get a +10 and +11. Those will give you a good idea of how quickly the cat’s numbers are rising (or not) when preshot time arrives.

Beyond the general guidelines, there are other factors we consider when we are helping someone with a low preshot.
If the low preshot is not part of that cat’s normal pattern or there is reason to think something might be wrong, we will be more conservative.
If the cat is not a food spiker or tends to have an early onset/early nadir then they may not want to shoot as low. If the cat has a late nadir, then they will HAVE to learn to shoot low.
We will also be more conservative in some cases because of the person – if you are not able to monitor then you want to be more careful, or if you are not sure that you can get back to the board to keep us updated throughout the cycle. Trust me, if you shoot low, we will be watching for your updates and we will worry if we don’t see them.
We have to be a lot more careful with the cats who eat only dry food, because they don’t have access to the tools the rest of us use to keep our cats safe.
Also, when it comes to very low preshots, there is an unwritten rule that whoever helps that person shoot low should expect to sit with them through any low parts of the cycle. There have been times when I knew a cat’s number was likely shootable, but I also knew that I could not be around to help if the shot resulted in low numbers later in the cycle. For safety’s sake, if I could not find someone else who would be available to support for the next several hours, I would most likely suggest that the shot be reduced or skipped. I will not encourage someone to shoot low and then abandon them.
There are a lot of other scenarios, and you always want to keep your cat in mind.

Some general rules when stalling (ECID):

** 50s or higher – don’t feed. The number will bump up on its own soon due to the insulin wearing off.

** 40s or lower – you have a couple of choices.

When 40’s occur at the end of the cycle, it can be beneficial to withhold food and test in 15-20 minutes to determine if kitty is on the rise or hasn’t reached nadir yet.
If they are hanging in the 40s for a while, or if they are still dropping, it is ok to feed a tsp or two of LC and retest. This is very tricky. You want to avoid feeding too much while you’re waiting for them to go over 50, because you don’t want to artificially inflate the number with food.
--- Example: if kitty is 43 and you feed a whole meal, or feed some HC, and the number bumps up to 52, is that the cat’s natural end-of-cycle rise, or is it food spike? What if it is food spike? Then if you shoot the 52, when the food wears off he might drop back to the 40’s (and when insulin kicks in a couple of hours later, you might have a problem). If the 52 is the cat’s natural rise, then he will probably keep rising for the next few hours until insulin kicks in. If you can’t tell whether the number is food spike or natural rise, it’s safest to wait. Your data will help you here. Study the spreadsheet. How much food spike does the cat usually get? How many hours after the shot does the insulin’s onset usually occur in this cat? At what number is the cat likely to be when onset occurs? If the cat does drop, how easy/hard is it to regain control of the numbers? How carb sensitive is he?

** Test often (every 15-20 minutes, or at most every 30 minutes). You want to catch the rise the minute it starts. With most of our cats, once they start to rise they will really zoom. You want to get the insulin in as soon as possible, because it will be another 2-3 hours before the insulin kicks in and you don’t want to let the cycle get too far ahead of you.

Perhaps the most important guideline in shooting low is that any time you shoot your lowest ever number, you should get a +1 and +2 to give you an idea of how the cycle will go. If the +1 is not higher than PS, or if +2 is much lower than PS, that means “pay attention” over the next few hours. Those tests will also help you become even more data ready for the next time you are presented with a low preshot reading.

Using the overlap by shooting low is a great way to take advantage of Lantus/Levemir’s long, flat cycles, once you have learned to do so safely.

~ written by Libby and Lucy

what's your schedule tonight and tomorrow? can you afford to be late with the shot, ie, do you have any flexibility in what time you need to shoot tomorrow morning?

do you have plenty of test strips (20 or so?) and high carb of some kind (gravy cat food, karo syrup, honey?)
 
He ate roughly 2 oz. I have my hypo kit ready and on standby. Two new containers of strips, a few cans of Fancy Feast Gravy Lovers, and Karo syrup.
 
super!

So think about what number you'd feel comfortable shooting. At any point when he begins to rise you could shoot. You'll want to get a +1 and a +2 to see what he's doing. Are you able to monitor tonight?

I'm thinking I'm only good for 2 more hours max, so before you shoot, let me see if anyone else is around to help you if you end up dealing with low numbers tonight.
 
He just tested at 85. I am free all day tomorrow. I'm a full time graduate student and classes don't start back up until Tuesday so I can stay up with him.
 
ok - well . . . i'd just want to make sure someone's going to be online with you. in case. so hang on - i've asked a couple of people to see if anyone is available.
 
the thing is, julie, that we're late on west coast time and after about midnight, 2 hrs from now, we can't count on anyone definitely being online. sometimes people are, but not always. Dyana usually gets on early, about 3am our time, but that's about +5 and it would leave you about 3 hrs on your own.

It might be best for you to skip - you also have the option of giving a reduced dose or the full dose. there's just no way to know for certain what will happen or to know if you'll need help or not.

everybody screws up the shot once in awhile - we call them a furshot and just get back on track later. i say that meaning that it's not the end of the world to skip the shot.

what do you want to do?
 
I'm going to test again here in a minute. I'm thinking a reduced shot wouldn't be a bad idea depending on his number. 1.5 units instead of 2 or is that still a bit much? Maybe 1?
 
if you want to give a "token" dose, you might drop to 1.0u tonight.

the only thing is that even with a reduced dose, it's possible you'll still see low numbers tonight. Lantus is a depot insulin, meaning that it slow-releases in the body. It can influence as many as 6 more cycles after a dose is reduced. Sometimes we see the effects right away, but it's possible for you to still see low numbers even with a reduced dose. No way to know in advance, unfortunately.

Are you able to get mid-day tests ordinarily? i just see there aren't any for the past 3 days except the preshot tests. Lantus dosing is based upon the low point, so it's essential to know how low the dose is taking Tux. The only way to know that is to get at least one mid-cycle test in every cycle.
 
I just tested again and he is at 112.
I can test mid-day. I haven't been testing since the first two days because my vet said I didn't need to and that I didn't need to test before shooting. I followed what I learned on here and tested before shooting anyway and I'm glad that I did. I'm going to start testing more frequently during the day. My only problem is on Tuesdays, I'm gone from 1130 to 2030. Every other day I'm home all day. My husband is working night shifts right now so he can't shoot for me.
 
i don't know why vets don't think cats need to be tested. I'm super glad you are hometesting - can you imagine what might have happened if you hadn't tested him tonight?

we encourage everyone to get a minimum of 1 test mid-cycle every cycle, both am and pm cycles. you can see why!

On Tuesdays you can decide at preshot if it's safe to shoot or not. you might want to get a timed feeder to help cover while you're at work. One thing people do to work around the work schedule to to adjust their shot times so that they can get a +2 before they go to work. The +2 can give a lot of information about what might be expected in the next few hours of the cycle.
 
julie, wendy just answered and said she can't stay up tonight either. we're the ones (wendy, marje & I) who are typically available at night, so i really think your best choice might be to skip.

if you choose to do that, you can shoot earlier in the morning. If you want to move the shot time earlier so that you can get a +2 to work around your Tuesday schedule, you might want to shoot early tomorrow morning. What do you think about that?
 
We're sorry we can't stay up. Between Wendy, Julie, and me, usually one of us can but this night just turned out to be one we can't.

I want to echo Julie's comment that even shooting a reduced dose, you might see some lower numbers due to the depot. It's possible if he's on the way up, that he might continue up but there's no guarantee.
 
Thank you. I'm thinking skipping would not be a bad idea. As for shooting times, I am available every day at all hours to shoot except for Tuesday for the next 8 weeks. On Tuesday, I have to leave my house at 11 (not 1130 as I previously said) and I would get home around 1030 at night. My vet and I went with a 9 and 9 shooting time. What would you recommend? My husband can feed before he leaves for work on Tuesdays but he leaves around 5 pm and only while he is on this schedule.
 
I think i'd go with a 7am or 8am shot time and then on Tuesday nights, maybe skip the shot. That would let you be home long enough on Tuesday mornings that you would be able to help Tux through the first part of the cycle.

What was your vet suggesting you would do on Tuesday nights? just shoot late?

the reason i'm suggesting having an earlier shot time (while not solving your Tuesday issue completely) is mostly because more people would be around to help you earlier in the evening. If you shot at 7/7, most of the time someone would be around until midnight, so you wouldn't run into tonight's issue.

You don't have to decide tonight - just know that you can shoot earlier in the morning if you want to move to a new schedule.
 
My vet recommended me to just shoot late on Tuesday nights. After tonight's shananigans, I will be switching to a new vet. I knew it was wrong of her to tell me to just shoot anyway and she is not up to date on this disease.
 
If I decide to stay with 9 and 9, do I shoot his regular dose at his regular time? If I go with 7 or 8, I would just shoot the regular dose at the new time correct?
 
i'd stay with the same dose. generally we don't reduce the dose unless we see a number below 50. if you can get the mid-cycle tests in we'll have a better idea on the dose.

most vets, honestly, aren't experts on FD. most people stick with a vet that they think is overall good for most things and just learn to do the dosing here. vets have to be good in many areas, and i don't think vet schools spend much time on diabetes in cats. also the older insulins were dosed differently than the newer depot insulins. i suspect the chances of you finding a vet who is really up to date on FD is pretty low. if you like your vet otherwise, i'd stay. just let us help you with dosing adjustments and teach you how to follow the protocol.
 
i hate it when i hit "post" and then realize i didn't answer everything! :lol:

yes, you can shoot at whatever time you want tomorrow. same dose - then we'll look at numbers and see if it's too much. if you keep getting preshots that are low, then we might reduce the dose anyway so you can get 2 shots in 12 hrs apart every day.
 
Okay, thank you for the help! I will start testing more frequently. I want to switch to a different vet in the office. The other vets are more up to date than mine. Even though mine had a diabetic cat, she does not know half the things I have talked to her about that I learned here and she scoffed at it. The other vets at least knew I could use a Lantus pen with the U100 syringes instead of the vial. I'm just not impressed in many ways.
 
i switched from the vet i'd been with for years after punkin became diabetic. one of his mistakes was that he started us on Prozinc, which takes u-40 syringes, but when he switched us to Lantus after a couple of months he didn't tell me we needed u-100 syringes. The difference is that punkin was getting 2.5x as much insulin as we thought. people here picked up on it. I adored him, but i changed to a friend's vet that had 2 diabetic cats of her own. I guess at that point it was fortunate that punkin had acromegaly (a high dose condition) because that no doubt meant that he didn't die from all of that insulin, as another cat might have.

After i switched, i learned that she didn't follow Tight Reg and didn't test her cats at home. ohmygod_smile but i stuck with her because i thought she was really good otherwise.
 
by the way, you can show what happened tonight in Tux's ss like this:

in the +12 cell,

12= 57 (fed)
12.25= 56
12.75=85
13.25 = 112

in the dose column write "skip"

then if you do any tests overnight (you don't need to) write + how many hours since his last shot = ##. So if you test at midnight, which would be +15, you'd write in the +3 column "+15=200" or whatever the number is. We call it "pmps" when we shoot (meaning pm preshot) or "pmbg" when we don't shoot (meaning pm blood glucose).

it'll be helpful to use this data for the next time you're faced with a low preshot.
 
I just left my old vet in April because my dog was having issues and she prescribed two different meds before actually knowing what was wrong. Turns out one of the meds was not needed at all. That's just bad practice to me. This current vet just isn't working. I'm just grateful I found FDMB so I could know to test before shooting and was able to see the low number BEFORE it was too late :-x . I had planned on testing more frequently so I could find his nadir but I figured I would wait until he had been on the insulin for at least a week. I'm going to start now though so there is more information to make a good decision.
 
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