Possible change from Caninsulin to Prozinc
- Thread starter Ann & Liz
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Sue and Oliver (GA)
Very Active Member
It is that darn "Every Cat is Different", Ann. It does look like she has done okay with Canninsulin. The two unit dose gave her a nice green mid cycle and then she bounced. Bouncing is common with every insulin and varies with the cat. Some bounce a lot and high; some bounce right after the low - some have a high flat cycle the day after for a bounce. The trick is to find her pattern and use the insulin to help. It looks to me like one unit is not enough as she is staying higher, and the insulin is not lasting long enough.
It is up to you. Some careful work working with her trends and the Canninsulin could work for her. The best sign is that she isn't a cat who drops lowest at 6 hours and then is higher the last six. It seems to be lasting longer than usual for her.
ProZinc will act similarly - a smile shaped cycle , with adjustments made with preshots and nadir considered. The transition from Canninsulin to ProZinc would be easier than one of the depot insulins like Lantus. The depot insulins act and are dosed completely different. The other advantage is that you will have guidance here - more people using your insulin who can help daily with dosing, than use Canninsulin. But you'd get lots of support on Lantus; more people use it than ProZinc,
But truthfully, I think you might be able to get her in good numbers with guidance on Canninsulin. We do have people who have used it with success and if you tag them when you need help, you can get help. (to tag someone, use their forum name and @. -- like @Ann & Liz .)
Just looking at your spreadsheet, I'd suggest increasing the dose to 1.25 when you can monitor. Hold that dose for 3 days and see if the number improve. The 2 unit dose seemed close; the one unit may be too much of a drop.
But, if you want to switch, we'd love to have you join our little group. Maybe reading the protocol and beginner's guide in my signature in blue will help you see how ProZinc works.
It is up to you. Some careful work working with her trends and the Canninsulin could work for her. The best sign is that she isn't a cat who drops lowest at 6 hours and then is higher the last six. It seems to be lasting longer than usual for her.
ProZinc will act similarly - a smile shaped cycle , with adjustments made with preshots and nadir considered. The transition from Canninsulin to ProZinc would be easier than one of the depot insulins like Lantus. The depot insulins act and are dosed completely different. The other advantage is that you will have guidance here - more people using your insulin who can help daily with dosing, than use Canninsulin. But you'd get lots of support on Lantus; more people use it than ProZinc,
But truthfully, I think you might be able to get her in good numbers with guidance on Canninsulin. We do have people who have used it with success and if you tag them when you need help, you can get help. (to tag someone, use their forum name and @. -- like @Ann & Liz .)
Just looking at your spreadsheet, I'd suggest increasing the dose to 1.25 when you can monitor. Hold that dose for 3 days and see if the number improve. The 2 unit dose seemed close; the one unit may be too much of a drop.
But, if you want to switch, we'd love to have you join our little group. Maybe reading the protocol and beginner's guide in my signature in blue will help you see how ProZinc works.
Ann & Liz
Member
Thanks Sue for that advice. Had lengthy meeting with vet who is to do more in depth blood tests for any underlying issues. Plan to stay on 1u Caninsulin for the next week and then reassess.
Elizabeth and Bertie
Very Active Member
Hi Ann & Liz,
I started out with Caninsulin and then switched to a veterinary PZI insulin that was probably quite similar to Prozinc (that particular veterinary PZI has long since been discontinued).
As Sue says above, 'Every Cat Is Different', but what I found was that the PZI lasted longer in my cat's system than the Caninsulin, and that it dropped the blood glucose a bit more gently. ....And because it lasted a bit longer in the cat's system the 'pre-shot' blood glucose numbers got a bit lower, and the numbers evened out a little bit more.
I'm going to tag Alexi @Alexi for you as she recently switched from Caninsulin to Prozinc and may be able to tell you something of her experience.
Which 'Lily's Kitchen' are you feeding Lila at the moment?
Eliz
Ann & Liz
Member
Thanks for that info. At present Lila is on the chicken dinner organic ( tray) . Think carbs are 5.9% ?
Elizabeth and Bertie
Very Active Member
Alexi
Active Member
I found with Caninsulin it didn't last the full 12 hours and as the pre shot numbers dropped had to develop a sliding scale to make sure the nadir was not too low. Prozinc I am finding a much better insulin and clinical signs as well as fructosamine levels have improved since starting it. With Cappuccino it is lasting much longer than 12 hours, which is bringing its own challenges as she has a late nadir and slides rather than curves so she is on a sliding scale again (the one I have is definitely not recommended especially for a beginner and is under specialist supervision and monitoring as Cappuccino is in a clinical trial at the RVC). Others see a nice curve with much gentler drops.
It is early days for you and as mentioned in your other thread you are in 'dose tweak phase' and are getting a good duration of action from Caninsulin, you might like to consider increasing by 0.25 units every six cycles or even every week to try to get blue numbers at nadir as a start point without bouncing into high numbers, depending on how often you are able to monitor during the day. I am suggesting a cautious dose increase as she did drop like a stone on the 2 units and I suspect her optimum dose is somewhere between 1 and 2 at this stage of the game. Until you have a lot more data it may be worth persisting with the Caninsulin. Ultimately the decision is yours. Given the choice (which I didn't as Cappuccino was diagnosed before Prozinc was licensed) I would have gone with the Prozinc as it is a bit more flexible if you have to shoot late and gives gentler drops.
It is early days for you and as mentioned in your other thread you are in 'dose tweak phase' and are getting a good duration of action from Caninsulin, you might like to consider increasing by 0.25 units every six cycles or even every week to try to get blue numbers at nadir as a start point without bouncing into high numbers, depending on how often you are able to monitor during the day. I am suggesting a cautious dose increase as she did drop like a stone on the 2 units and I suspect her optimum dose is somewhere between 1 and 2 at this stage of the game. Until you have a lot more data it may be worth persisting with the Caninsulin. Ultimately the decision is yours. Given the choice (which I didn't as Cappuccino was diagnosed before Prozinc was licensed) I would have gone with the Prozinc as it is a bit more flexible if you have to shoot late and gives gentler drops.
Ann & Liz
Member
Thanks for your advice. We are fast realising that there isn't necessarily an "ideal insulin". Fortunately the vet we saw today seems to be prepared to take things very steadily and not too change things too early. So Lila will remain on 1u of Caninsulin for another week and then reassess. Lila has had a very bright day and been in the garden for a little while. And this evenings pre shot was the lowest it's been for a while so fingers crossed.
Critter Mom
Very Active Member
Hi Sue,
I've been following Lila's progress since Ann & Liz joined the forum and Lila has been showing clinical signs of having trouble with the harshness of Caninsulin. That 2 unit dose of Caninsulin absolutely tanked Lila's BG - a drop of over 330 points between preshot and +6 on a daytime cycle (and with Caninsulin's action profile it may have been even lower between +3 and +6). Lila was absolutely poleaxed as a result - and for quite some time thereafter.
Lila is also showing clinical signs similar to a lot of cats that find it tough going on Caninsulin; most notably sleepiness/lethargy during peak period of Caninsulin action then perking up with much better clinical signs as the dose is wearing off. (Saoirse's response to Caninsulin was very similar.)
Questions:
How much gentler is Prozinc on a cat compared to Caninsulin?
Have you seen any cats who were absolutely hammered on Caninsulin do better on Prozinc?
Do any of you have details of the typical action profile of Prozinc? (Trying to learn whether the Prozinc BG drop from preshot to nadir compares to Caninsulin.)
Mogs
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Alexi
Active Member
Cappuccino typically dropped by about 10 points on Caninsulin, curves so far on Prozinc show a drop around 4 points - but I have yet to do a curve on 1.5 units which is her max dose allowing for her roller coaster numbers.
In terms of overall health and activity - I seem to have acquired a new cat!
In terms of overall health and activity - I seem to have acquired a new cat!
Sue and Oliver (GA)
Very Active Member
Well, Mogs, you know what I am going to say.
ECID. I think Canninsulin is milder in lots of cats than it used to be. We used to see violent swings from fast drops to the insulin being gone by +8. I think it is lasting longer than it used to and is milder. In general, ProZinc should be milder than Canninsulin, but we do see some real swings in ProZinc cats too. I've seen cats who do better on ProZinc than they did on Canninsulin and than they did on the depot insulins. And I have seen cats who have a real hard time with ProZinc and did much better on the depot insulins. I don't think I have ever seen a cat switch from ProZinc to Canninsulin. I think that'd be unusual...We'd like to see a slow onset, nadir around +6 with a slow rise to pmps back to a range similar to amps. Sometimes that happens and sometimes not, sometimes changing within a 24 hour period.
Not much help, huh?
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