Poopy's Weird BG Saga

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Teresa and Poopy

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Copied from Birthday Post:
Teresa and Poopy said:
Carl & Bob in SC said:
Poopy, iz Bob. Look buddy, you gotz to show yor Mom sumpping one weigh or t'hother ok? Yor con fuzing her too much and itz maekin her crayzee. Giv her sum nice numbrs so she nose wat tu du. - I hope yu had a grate birfday and liked yor chick'n! yor pal, Bob.

Teresa,
I don't know. Some days look okay, some days really flat no matter what the dose has been from 1.4 to 2.2. The thing that sticks out for me is that in general, he gets much better cycles overnight than he does during the days. When I look at days where you've shot the same AM and PM, it looks like the next morning he's lower (some days by a lot) "the morning after". I don't know why that is, it's just a trend I see.
The cycle that really sticks out though (and maybe it's due to the drugs they gave him at the vet???) is the night you skipped the shot, and he didn't even seem to notice. He went from 303 to 335 twelve hours later, like he didn't even miss the juice. That is very weird...

Carl

Carl, I totally agree it's very weird and why I'm basically concerned. I've done the no shot thing on purpose and due to life happenings a few times over the past couple months and it just doesn't seem to phase him one way or the other. He'll go a bit higher without insulin but still in the same range as with insulin. And I agree with Sue, that it doesn't seem to matter how much or little I give him. He'll have flat, inverse, or very low dips regardless of amount. One cycle does not match another.

As far as his overall health (not counting the bite) he's been fine: peeing, pooping, preening, purring, playing. He's not losing or gaining weight, staying at 14.5 lbs. He has had two incidents where when he pooped it stuck to his back end and I had to help him remove it (seemed more stuck to the hairs around his butt than the butt itself). Once was during the trip in mid June and once yesterday during the AM cycle. The only other issue was the eye goop a few weeks ago (also when he was on steroids and I went as high as 2.2u, with no reaction on BGs).

When the vet suggested upping to 1.8u my first thought was, "That's not going to do anything" but figured I'd play along for a few days to get some numbers to share with the vet.

The ProZinc is half gone, no floaters, and remains pretty cloudy all the time - which I've noticed seems to be normal when half gone.

It's a head scratcher for sure.

Hay Bob. Itz da Poop. Man, eyez ben trin' ta giv da Mom some nice numbas but don relee noze how da do it. Mom keeps trin' an keps stickin' me but de onlee gud thang iz da bird eye gets. Eye givs her lovins sos she noze eyez not mad n stuf. Gots anee idears? Yur pal, Poopy.

Run down of BGs:

AMPS 218
+3 306 (pulled food)
+5 312
+7 303 (fed)
PMPS 310

AMPS 254
+3 292 (pulled food)

The only things different between AM and PM cycles - not pulling food during PM for testing, so no raw chicken chunk each test during PM, and house it quieter. Same type food, same insulin amount.
 
After pondering this...
He seems to need either a lot more, or a lot less insulin.
Argument for less- flat or sometimes inverse cycles.
Argument against less - flat cycles. And you've skipped and it showed no effect. And his numbers are "diabetic".
Does anyone know of a condition that causes long term elevated bg that isn't feline diabetes?

Argument for more - flat cycles and lack of progress. His numbers overall aren't terrible. But no matter what dose you give, as high as 2.2u, he doesn't seem to get a good drop. He doesn't go low enough to cause bounces, and I don't see bounces in his preshot numbers. I don't see "short duration" either, which actually would be helpful to see. That would make me lean towards "more" juice more strongly.

My feeling is he needs more, or maybe even a different insulin.
The way you describe it, your prozinc seems to be okay so I don't think it's" bad".

Before giving up on pzi, I think I would try the "more juice" route. Like 2.0 for 3-4 days, then 2.25u, then 2.5. See if it seems to have any positive effects at all. Bob needed 4.0 before he had any breakthrough...

Anybody else?

Carl
 
Kinda reminds me of Cass at first, when he was on too low a dose & we.kept reducing. numbers essentially the same with/with out insulin, still in diabetic range. He had cycles that looked flat/inverse, too. I vote for cautious increase.
 
Hello,
I believe an increase might be helpful. My gut tells me that some cats, like my Pudge, simply habituate to any medicine (yes, insulin is something else but...) and require higher amounts as time progresses. If Pudge ever needs to get back on insulin, I shall probably give him higher doses with larger increases in dose amounts than in the past. Teresa, that's easy for me to say but, gosh, so hard to do! Of course, this can only be done if kitty can be closely monitored. Pudge went OTJ on a 1.6 unit dose - that alone makes his reaction to insulin somewhat quirky. Best of luck to you & sweet Poopy.

By the way, although Pudge is very loving & easygoing, he might bite if really startled or accidentally hurt!
Best wishes to you & Poopy,
Sophie
 
Thank you all for your replies and sharing of information. I think I agree, it's going to take "bam" doses to get any movement (at least I hope).

I'll mutter through the week with the 1.8u, unless something weird happens, will chat with the vet near the end of the week updating him on numbers, and up the dose. Think it's too radical to shoot 2.5u on Saturday when I can be home with him to monitor?
 
I agree. If you're there to test and watch, 2.5 is not radical
Carl
 
Hi Teresa -

I'm wondering if he isn't resistant (IAA). I'm seeing the same pancakes that Grayson used to order up at the IHOP... Since our change to Lev, (mind you he IS insulin resistant), his numbers have gone from only a 30-50 point range to more like 150-200... unfortunately, we're still seeing some red preshots... but the folks at CSU when he had his SRT treatment, didn't seem to think that was an issue...

If it IS, in fact, resistance, others have experienced the "breakthrough" by dosing very aggressively (and monitoring VERY closely!!!). While still on ProZinc, I got up to 6 units (and totally freaked out at such a high dose!), then did a re-boot to 3u and then 2u. He did well on both - actually better than on 6u. But when I tried one more reduction to 1.5u, he was red & black all over the place. So we went back up - aggressively, to 9u before I switched. The rule of thumb I use for increases, is a preferred 20% - 25%, so on larger doses that's much more substantial. The nice thing on ProZinc, is that if it appears to be too high of a dose, you'll know, and you can adjust accordingly. So far, it seems Grayson doesn't have a "too high" number! ...but then again, we've never experienced a hypo either! ECID!
 
Just found out I won't be home this weekend....and get this....DH has agreed to give Poopy his shots! Hold the earth still!

Managed to get home today at +6 and Poopy dropped from AMPS of 286 to 201. At least it looks like movement. Doesn't quite smell like movement though. :lol:

May need to stick with the 1.8 longer than planned.
 
Hello,
Teresa, what a typical & surprising NOT kitty behavior! My Pudge was tested for the typical insulin resistant conditions with negative results, though one never really knows. Attaching an interesting link on Acromegaly, etc.,:
http://www.felineoutreach.org/Education/Acromegaly.html

Lou, do you know at what dose of insulin a kitty might be suspected of insulin resistance? As far as I recall, I never gave Pudge more than 2.0 units twice daily (will need to check my records). I tried reading all the links found in the main one above, but don't think I've succeeded. Just curious & somewhat concerned nailbite_smile for any future OTJ oopsies.

Carl, how far did you back down when Bob went OTJ? With Pudge, it was 1.6u. I'm just wondering if his remission would have come faster if I had given him more insulin.

Best wishes,
Sophie
 
@ Sophie...
I backed down Bob in large (like 1u) increments to 2, then in half units to 1u. His last days on insulin he got .5 or .25u doses unless I skipped. It took probably 5 weeks to go from 4u down to .25u. I was shooting the .25 or .5u doses into numbers that I would now tell people not to shoot insulin into though. Bob and I are pretty much a classic example of "do as we say, not as we did". I wasn't an active member here until he was almost off the juice, so I plead ignorance about the right way to do things.

Carl
 
AMPS 287, shot 1.8u

Will make it home about +6 to test.

Poopy doesn't have any signs he isn't using the insulin other than not dipping. No weight loss, fur is soft and fluffy, peeing and pooping are normal (not large quantities). Baffles me. Without any signs, I'm led to believe he's just not getting enough. Hate to up his dose, though, when I can't be around to monitor. :sad:
 
Got to thinking (I know, dangerous for me) and now I'm wondering if the change in Poopy's food formula is the culprit. When I saw the change I researched "Brewer's Yeast" (the added ingredient) and didn't find it to be an issue for diabetics. Perhaps I misunderstood what I was reading?

It's that time of month for me to be shopping for Poopy's food and am thinking I may need to change his diet a bit. Worth a try, anyway.

Y'all have a great day!
 
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