Pooper's Frustrating Glucose and I need help!!!!!

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rbrumbaugh82

Okay I am about to lose my mind. I am trying to find some wet low carb cat foods for Pooper's so that he doesn't get tired of eating just 1 kind. However, I am not sure if fricken Turkey and Giblets FF is doing its job anymore. I went to Tractor Supply and seen that they had a ProPlan True Nature Grain Free Chicken and Liver wet cat food. I purchased some and Pooper's ate a lot of the 3.0oz can up. I waited about 30 mins and just checked his glucose. It was 488!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Why Hell on Earth would this food make his glucose spike? I just can't find anything in this catfood that would spike his glucose. In addition, he got 3 units of insulin at 8:30am this morning because he was over 500! The Novalin N must be **** now and his pancreas must be giving up on him now even with insulin. I know it still works because it does drop his glucose but for some stupid reason he goes right back up after it wears off. URRRRRRRRRRR I am contacting my vet tomorrow to find out if they did anything to contact that Vet Pharmacy in Texas about the Bovine PZI insulin free sample.

Here are the ingredients to this cat food
Ingredients
Chicken, liver, meat by products, water sufficient for processing, poultry giblets, guar gum, tricalcium phosphate, potassium chloride, taurine, salt, choline chloride, Vitamin E supplement, mono and dicalcium phosphate, thiamine mononitrate, zinc sulfate, ferrous sulfate, niacin, calcium pantothenate, Vitamin A supplement, copper sulfate, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), manganese sulfate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, riboflavin supplement, Vitamin B 12 supplement, biotin, folic acid, Vitamin D 3 supplement, and potassium iodide
 
I can't find any reviews on this cat food either. URRRRRR
 
As far as I know, all food no matter what the carb content causes a food spike after they eat. Did you get a reading right before you gave him the food?
 
I took his glucose reading within an hour from when he ate atleast half of the 3.0oz can.
 
this is kinda why we stick to the foods we know.... from the list.... until one of us calls and get's the as feds for new foods.... and adds it to the master list.

it is very likely just that the insulin he's on just isn't doing much for him.
maybe get back to plan a,
get the other insulin purchase moving....
time is of the essence....

obviously his pancreas isn't going to heal itself without one of the better insulins.... and the longer you wait, the harder it will be.
 
OK, again as far as I know (and someone please jump in if I'm missing something here) to work out the effect the food itself is having you'd really need to get a test immediately before he eats and then again an hour after he eats which should give you a good idea of the effect the food is having directly on his BG though obviously you'd have to also allow for a naturally rising level if he's heading towards his next shot. If you look at Rosa's ss, bearing in mind that she's on Lantus so the insulin is acting a bit differently, you can see there are a number of occasions where she goes higher up to shot (and therefore food) +2 and then drops back down. While I don't have any experience of Novalin, I'd have thought there would still be a noticeable effect from even low carb food intake for an hour or so after eating.
 
A food spike is usually quite apparent at +2. If you frequently get the +2 and also track what food was given, you can do the math and calculate how much of a rise has happened. This can clue you in to food issues ... or insulin wimp out issues (yeah, just found out Gracie's ProZinc is toast)
 
Thank you :) I was about to start trawling through information threads to try and find it!

Looks like it is low carb based on that - it's giving me 2% using the information from the guaranteed analysis
 
Yea that is the right info Manx. I'm not sure how to process everything to find the carb content of this food, so if anyone knows how to do this much better, can you let me know what the carb percentage is of this food. I wouldn't have thought this would be a high carb food given it just has chicken, liver, meat-by-products and poultry giblets in it. Feels like the same chemistry makeup of FF turkey and giblets.
 
In that case, it should be all good. The calculator shows it as 2% dry matter carbs based on the guaranteed analysis information. 2% is definitely low carb. :)
 
Okay so I did the calculator on this food and it says 2% dry matter carbs and 0.5% for wet carbs. So I'm guessing based on what I see it would be considered a low carb wet food. So not sure why it would have spiked his glucose and stupid me I should have checked his glucose prior to feeding them this so that I could see how much it spiked. However, 488 is high so I'm guessing he was still in the 300's or low 400s before eating. I gave him 3 units at 830am this morning and he was 162 at 1230pm today. So in 5 hours he jumped up from 162 to the 400s. Yeah I guess the insulin just isn't helping his pancreas anymore. In the morning I am contacting my Vet to find out about that free sample of BCP PZI insulin.
 
manxcat419 said:
In that case, it should be all good. The calculator shows it as 2% dry matter carbs based on the guaranteed analysis information. 2% is definitely low carb. :)
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I just hope that calculator is accurate so therefore if it is a 2% carb wet food then there should not be any reason for him being in the 400s. The food should jumpstart his pancreas and help to lower his glucose not make it go up. :(
 
Forgetting to test before he eats is easily done when he's eating at times other than his shot - I wouldn't worry too much about that. Rosa free feeds apart from the 2 hours before her shot so the +1 and/or +2 is the only way I can tell she's having a food spike. It does sound as though it could be an issue with his insulin either not doing enough or only lasting a short amount of time as that +4 reading of 162 isn't bad at all. I'd definitely ask your vet if there's a possibility of trying a different insulin - and if you can get a free sample to find out if it works for him, so much the better!
 
The calculator looks accurate to me based on the different calorie values of the different parts of the food - 9 calories per gram of fat, and 4 calories per gram of protein and carb. The calculator just makes it easy to work out instead of having to figure out which of the guaranteed analysis numbers to multiply by which calorie value, multiply all those numbers up yourself and then total them (and removes the possibility of human error when doing all that too). There will always be slight variances no doubt between batches of food, but nothing that would take it from 2% all the way up to over 10% of carbs.
 
You think bouncing because he is getting too much insulin that his pancreas can't handle it? So when he eats his body treats it as insulin and therefore causes his glucose to spike instead of going down? I'm learning all of this. I just don't think if he has a BG reading of above 300 that just 1 unit or less of insulin would be enough to get his numbers down to the 100s!
 
Looking at his ss he could be. In fact, it looks as though he was getting overall better numbers at lower doses, or even with 0 units given a week or so ago. Like I said earlier, I've no experience at all of Novolin N - I know how the R type insulins work because my step-son uses those as well as Lantus but I've never used Novolin N at all. It makes me wonder if his dose may have increased too high too fast and that's causing the problem of high numbers overall and bouncing the times he does get lower numbers. @BJM - you have experience with this insulin - is that a possibility here? I also wonder if he might have gone low overnight on the 4th and 5th as your ss doesn't show any test results later than +2 on the PM cycle for those days and that might be causing him to bounce now.
 
Bouncing can happen for 2 reasons, either singly or in combination.
When the glucose drops rapidly AND/OR drops to an unfamiliar level, that triggers hormones which release stored glucose (glycogen) and up the blood glucose goes. It can stay elevated for several days.

Today, he dropped from 521 to 162, a drop of 359 mg/dL in just 4 hours. That is a pretty large drop; its not surprising the glucose went back up like a cork released from under water.
 
One of the ingredients in the food is "meat by-products". There is no indication of the protein source for them so they could be from any meat source. Some cats spike on particular ingredients that may disagree with them somewhat (e.g. some cats will spike with beef). It's the only thing that stands out to me as a potential food irritant in the ingredients described.
 
BJM said:
Can we possibly get you onto the longer acting, less harsh BCP PZI? Your vet can get a free sample.
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I inquired about that Friday afternoon and will contact my Vet in the morning to find out if they got anywhere with it. They are supposed to get me a free sample to try. It may be only a 5mL bottle so do you think that would be enough to determine if it'll work? I just wonder how much a vial of it costs and how long it would last in the fridge?
 
Critter Mom said:
One of the ingredients in the food is "meat by-products". There is no indication of the protein source for them so they could be from any meat source. Some cats spike on particular ingredients that may disagree with them somewhat (e.g. some cats will spike with beef). It's the only thing that stands out to me as a potential food irritant in the ingredients described.
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I wouldn't think the meat-by-products would be the culprit. The Turkey and Giblets FF has meat-by-products in it and he was dropping on that. This new food has 2% carbs in it according the calculator so I would imagine it shouldn't spike it.
 
Okay, so my question is, how do I go about getting this bouncing to stop? Do I just let him eat even when his BG is really high like in the 300-400's? Do I not give him any insulin? I just want to be able to get his body back in sync without the huge spikes in readings to where his body goes from 120 to 400 in just a few hours.
 
I'd have thought 5ml would be plenty to see if it's going to work - if it's the 40u/ml that would mean there'd be 200 units in 5ml - that's a lot of doses at the sort of dose he's on now. It's got to be worth a try as you can get the first 5ml as a free sample.
 
manxcat419 said:
I'd have thought 5ml would be plenty to see if it's going to work - if it's the 40u/ml that would mean there'd be 200 units in 5ml - that's a lot of doses at the sort of dose he's on now. It's got to be worth a try as you can get the first 5ml as a free sample.
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Yeah I really hope so. Hope they didn't just not do it and I have to wait and wait. I need to try this new insulin asap because I know I need a long lasting insulin that actually works to keep the BG in healthy range and not this large spike.
 
rbrumbaugh82 said:
I wouldn't think the meat-by-products would be the culprit. The Turkey and Giblets FF has meat-by-products in it and he was dropping on that. This new food has 2% carbs in it according the calculator so I would imagine it shouldn't spike it.
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Just because both have meat by-products as an ingredient it doesn't automatically follow that the source of the meat by-products is the same in both foods.
 
I agree - he needs an insulin that works for him. And you need that too so you know there are a good few hours in the day where you can relax and not have to worry about him constantly - that's exhausting for you too! I'd call them first thing in the morning to check - that way if they missed ordering it on Friday, they should be able to get the order in without losing another day's shipping time on it.
 
Critter Mom said:
Just because both have meat by-products as an ingredient it doesn't automatically follow that the source of the meat by-products is the same in both foods.
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Well Purina makes both the True Nature which came out in January of 2015 and Fancy Feast so I wouldn't know why they'd use different meat-by-products in the same kind of product.
 
manxcat419 said:
I agree - he needs an insulin that works for him. And you need that too so you know there are a good few hours in the day where you can relax and not have to worry about him constantly - that's exhausting for you too! I'd call them first thing in the morning to check - that way if they missed ordering it on Friday, they should be able to get the order in without losing another day's shipping time on it.
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I agree! Thank you my friend!
 
I find nothing in that canned hat would tend to spike BG.
Some cats just do not responds to insulin consistently. M Badger is on of them. Sometimes he is less then 100 for PS and sometimes he is in 500's.
I have tried Lantus, Levemire, N, BCP PZI and ProZinc all with the same results. Sometimes it is the cat, not the insulin.
 
Yeah I am so down right now. His glucose this morning was 575! I gave him 2 units of insulin. I just do not understand how he was doing well a few weeks ago and now all he seems to do is stay high. I know the food appears to be low in carbs but for some reason it isn't helping to drop his glucose. I thought of just going back to Turkey and Giblets. What I do not understand is I do not believe his glucose was spiking when he was eating the Turkey and Giblets and yet according to the calculator Turkey and Giblets is 7% dry matter carbs whereas the True Nature is only 2%. And yet, his glucose seems to go up when he eats the True Nature. Why would his glucose spike when eating the 2% carbs and yet does not do so with the 7%. URRRRRRRR!
 
To make matters worse, the Vet can't get to the insulin until Thursday due to her schedule. I can't just switch Vets because all damn vets around here are all the same. They seem to care more about dogs then they do with cats. I bet if I had a diabetic dog they would be all over it right away. So until then, I have to do with what I have now and just sit here and watch his glucose stay in the 400s+ and worry about him getting worse. This just has not been a good day.
 
Don't worry Thursday will come quickly. Sometimes there is no answer, just like humans their bodies work in mysterious ways. Sometimes something can work for a while then just stop with no real reason behind it.

What I would suggest is that until Thursday stick with a lower dose because right now it looks like he's bouncing around. Another suggestion for the next couple days is find a food you and him are ok with and stick with it. Id do a few different low carb flavors since I've seen you'd like to give him a variety. I feed my cats 3 different flavors, and feed them 3 times a day. You dont want to keep changing food because it can upset their stomachs and cause GI issues, but also it lets you get an idea of how high their bg will spike from certain foods. Your best bet is to pick foods from either catinfo.org list or Tanyas list (if its Tanyas list make sure its low carb, she focus' on phos) Foods on these lists have the nutritional facts directly from the manufacturer for the "AS FED" not the guaranteed analysis. Another thing, when you do switch insulin start like its his first time...start low and go slow, you have no idea how he will react so its better to stick with that till you get some data from that insulin.

Last note........relax. I know its easier said than done, but stressing reflects on them. They're just like children in that aspect and they can sense the stress which causes them to stress.
 
rbrumbaugh82 said:
What I do not understand is I do not believe his glucose was spiking when he was eating the Turkey and Giblets and yet according to the calculator Turkey and Giblets is 7% dry matter carbs whereas the True Nature is only 2%. And yet, his glucose seems to go up when he eats the True Nature. Why would his glucose spike when eating the 2% carbs and yet does not do so with the 7%.
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Saoirse is an example of a cat that does better on slightly higher carbs. Her BG runs at around 6.5/117 on 0.7% carbs (and may climb higher) but on 4.4% carbs her BG runs at >5.6/100 (Alphatrak values). As I think I posted on one of your threads before, for some cats at least the pancreas produces better pulses of insulin in response to a higher carb load at mealtimes.

My suggestion would be to switch back to the food that was helping Poopers better (assuming that he will be happy to continue eating it) and monitor to see if his BG will improve again.

Finally, even when a food is the same brand and flavour, there is no absolute guarantee of the amount of carbs in any particular batch. As a case in point, I got a new batch of Saoirse's 0.7% carb food last week and her blood glucose started to climb - even went out of regulation - after I started feeding it to her. I switched back to her other food (4.4%) and her BG started to come down again.
 
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I feel your pain @rbrumbaugh82 My Colby's BG has been all over the place too. It's making me crazy! I'm also waiting for my sample from BCP. I checked w/ my vet on Friday and apparently he had to re-fax the order b/c BCP had lost it! They said they have been inundated with requests lately. I don't know how much longer I can wait using Vetsulin. I worry about what kind of damage is being done to Colby's body while we wait for the sample. I'm going to try calling the company myself today and see if there is an estimated delivery time. I may have to try something else instead, if it's going to be much longer.
 
Critter Mom said:
Saoirse is an example of a cat that does better on slightly higher carbs. Her BG runs at around 6.5/117 on 0.7% carbs (and may climb higher) but on 4.4% carbs her BG runs at >5.6/100. As I think I posted on one of your threads before, for some cats at least the pancreas produces better pulses of insulin in response to a higher carb load at mealtimes.

My suggestion would be to switch back to the food that was helping Poopers better (assuming that he will be happy to continue eating it) and monitor to see if his BG will improve again.

Finally, even when a food is the same brand and flavour, there is no absolute guarantee of the amount of carbs in any particular batch. As a case in point, I got a new batch of Saoirse's 0.7% carb food last week and her blood glucose started to climb - even went out of regulation - after I started feeding it to her. I switched back to her other food (4.4%) and her BG started to come down again.
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Yeah I went and bought a bunch of the Turkey and Giblets FF classic cat food. So I am sticking him just to that cat food and nothing else. He must have a pancreas that responds to a higher carb then a lower carb which makes no sense.
 
ursa68 said:
I feel your pain @rbrumbaugh82 My Colby's BG has been all over the place too. It's making me crazy! I'm also waiting for my sample from BCP. I checked w/ my vet on Friday and apparently he had to re-fax the order b/c BCP had lost it! They said they have been inundated with requests lately. I don't know how much longer I can wait using Vetsulin. I worry about what kind of damage is being done to Colby's body while we wait for the sample. I'm going to try calling the company myself today and see if there is an estimated delivery time. I may have to try something else instead, if it's going to be much longer.
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I know how you feel. Novalin N drops his glucose sharply but after like 6 hours his BG starts to spike right back up. That is why I will be happy to get him on a longer lasting insulin which I really hope it works and works well for Pooper's.
 
dirtybirdsoaps said:
Don't worry Thursday will come quickly. Sometimes there is no answer, just like humans their bodies work in mysterious ways. Sometimes something can work for a while then just stop with no real reason behind it.

What I would suggest is that until Thursday stick with a lower dose because right now it looks like he's bouncing around. Another suggestion for the next couple days is find a food you and him are ok with and stick with it. Id do a few different low carb flavors since I've seen you'd like to give him a variety. I feed my cats 3 different flavors, and feed them 3 times a day. You dont want to keep changing food because it can upset their stomachs and cause GI issues, but also it lets you get an idea of how high their bg will spike from certain foods. Your best bet is to pick foods from either catinfo.org list or Tanyas list (if its Tanyas list make sure its low carb, she focus' on phos) Foods on these lists have the nutritional facts directly from the manufacturer for the "AS FED" not the guaranteed analysis. Another thing, when you do switch insulin start like its his first time...start low and go slow, you have no idea how he will react so its better to stick with that till you get some data from that insulin.

Last note........relax. I know its easier said than done, but stressing reflects on them. They're just like children in that aspect and they can sense the stress which causes them to stress.
Click to expand...
Do you have Tanya's list so that I can check? I bought Turkey and Giblet's FF Classic which is what I was feeding him before and I don't recall it spiking his glucose. I still don't understand how a 7% carb would help more than a 2% carb food.
 
Here you go, just don't forget when looking at the chart the nutritional layout is different. Carb % is the 5th box.

http://www.felinecrf.org/canned_food_usa.htm

Her list were updated in 2014.

Like others have mentioned, some cats react differently to carbs. Hidey is the complete opposite, he is very carb sensitive. He has to have 5% or lower. The lower the better with him, not to mention he WAS showing signs of kidney disease so I have to look for low carbs and low phos lol. Luckily his blood work came back normal since changing his diet yet again, but I'm still keeping low carb and low phos to keep his numbers in line, especially since he's a senior.
 
Shadow is another example of doing better on some carbs....
when I tried to feed the lowest.... her numbers would elevate some....

the focus is to make sure everything you feed is under 10% all the time...
so don't get too hung up right now on 3% vs 7%.....

as time marches on, you will start recognizing food spikes by keeping notes as to what you fed. Some cats are carb sensitive and some are not.
 
dirtybirdsoaps said:
Here you go, just don't forget when looking at the chart the nutritional layout is different. Carb % is the 5th box.

http://www.felinecrf.org/canned_food_usa.htm

Her list were updated in 2014.

Like others have mentioned, some cats react differently to carbs. Hidey is the complete opposite, he is very carb sensitive. He has to have 5% or lower. The lower the better with him, not to mention he WAS showing signs of kidney disease so I have to look for low carbs and low phos lol. Luckily his blood work came back normal since changing his diet yet again, but I'm still keeping low carb and low phos to keep his numbers in line, especially since he's a senior.
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Thank you very much for sharing this with me. Turkey and Giblets comes in at 4.09% carbs. The calculator said 7%?
 
rhiannon and shadow said:
Shadow is another example of doing better on some carbs....
when I tried to feed the lowest.... her numbers would elevate some....

the focus is to make sure everything you feed is under 10% all the time...
so don't get too hung up right now on 3% vs 7%.....

as time marches on, you will start recognizing food spikes by keeping notes as to what you fed. Some cats are carb sensitive and some are not.
Click to expand...
Yep Rhiannon, he seemed to have spiked and not drop when eating the new True Nature formula from Purina eventhough it appears to have lower carb % then Turkey and Giblets. I just don't see a spike in glucose when he ate Turkey and Giblets so I am keeping him on that I guess until I can get the better insulin.
 
The carb calculator is more of a guideline. The info collected on catinfo.org and Tanyas site is all "As fed" info from the manufacturer directly. Thats why they created those lists, because the info on the can is not as accurate as the labs the manufacturer's receive from their labs. Thats why if you look at several cans of food from the same brand MOST will have all the same nutritional info, makes it easier on printing I guess???

Thats why if theres ever a food your curious about, and can't find it on the charts, its best to email or call the company and ask for the "As Fed" nutritional numbers. Most companies will gladly give them to you.
 
I'd be curious then to see what ProPlan True Nature Grain Free Chicken and Liver Entrée is with carbs since on the calculator it said 7% dry matter carbs but on this list it says 4%. Makes me wonder if its higher than 2% carbs which I wouldn't think it would be. I guess I just have to have a stubborn cat that is carb sensitive but still don't understand why he doesn't drop on a lower carb cat food.
 
Keep in mind that the way cans are labeled mean the contents can vary batch to batch. Numbers calculated on 1 batch do not necessarily reflect the current batch.
 
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