? Poopers and am I giving too much insulin and additional help.

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rbrumbaugh82

Hey guys, I'm back again asking for solutions. I joined a feline diabetes message group on Facebook and we was discussing Pooper's and ways to get his numbers down. Someone mentioned that I could be giving him too much insulin and that too much insulin can cause a cat to stay high and barely drop to healthy values. So most of you know from looking at my SS that he is getting atleast 5 units 2 times a day. I know before when I got Lantus and was starting out at 3 units that it wasn't doing much either to get his numbers down into 100s. Someone suggested that maybe I should either switch to Levemir from Lantus since others didn't have any luck with Lantus like they do with Levemir or start all over with his dosing since he could be getting too much insulin and to give it time to readjust. Lastly, while I have been giving Pooper's YAZC I just can't imagine it being a culprit to his high numbers despite it being dry food. So I did take away the dry food bowl and replaced it with an additional bowl of wet FF Turkey and Giblets. I will experiment on that to see if the dry was the problem which I'm sure it won't be. So right now the stress continues and I don't know what else to do. I know its a broken record you keep hearing me complain but I am just so determined to help Pooper's get to healthy numbers and it kills me that he stays high most of the time.
 
The YAZC did not help with keeping BG low.
Your SS like on 5/12 AM does show a good BG drop. However, at other times like 5/17 AM little BG drop is shown. That one sort of looks like the dose too high or maybe you just have a hard to regulate cat.
All yo can do is keep trying.
I have been working on my Badger who adopted as a diabetic in Aug of last year and I ma getting BG similar to yours. I am getting may best results so far with 2 1/2 units N and 3.6 ProZinc twice daily
 
I think this was suggested a few weeks ago, but it looks to me like Poopers has some insulin resistance going on at the moment. He has some days where the dose will take him down into blue numbers, but not that many. The problem with reducing the dose is that that can make things worse by letting him run in higher numbers increasing his glucose toxicity, leaving you needing a higher dose overall to break the resistance and start him coming back down. From what I've read on here, it seems that reducing the dose and starting over rarely works in cases like this and the only solution is to keep increasing according to the protocol until he does reach the breakthrough dose and start coming back down the dosing scale. It looks as though you just increased him to 6 units - let's see what he can do with that dose for a few days and then look at his numbers again. He's not really high and flat, the insulin does bring his numbers down mid cycle on most cycles, just not by enough which would seem to indicate that the dose has been a little less than he needs rather than too much.
 
I know someone else like this as well. The higher the dose of insulin, the higher the BG goes/stays. It looks to me (but, I'm not by any means anywhere near as experienced as other members in here) like things were going better when Poopers was on a lower dosage. I'm not familiar with the ProZinc so, hopefully, more members will chime in with their opinions on that, but I am using the Lantus.

If I might offer up something that 2 vets have told me now (not saying that they're right...only repeating what they've said which may trigger a thought).
They both said that it takes time for the body to get used to a new level of insulin so, up dosing and down dosing can create a sort of "confusion" within the body/pancreas where it doesn't know what to do i.e.: open those gates and let the BG into the cells (thus the lower numbers) or close those gates tighter and allow the body to build more BG and "pool" outside the cells.
Both said that since it takes time for a new level of insulin to get the "gate keepers" on the receptors of the cells to open up and let the BG in, or...alternatively, to stop the insulin from "pooling" in front of those locked gates on the cells and producing more and more BG, it's important to be consistent for awhile and let the body do its thing without confusion. That means that missed doses, changes in foods and inconsistent treatment variations, can confuse the body and that puts the pancreas and entire system into a mess.

It's just my personal opinion but, I think you might want to talk things over with your vet again. Maybe, your friends on the FB forum are correct and you might want to discuss this with your vet, showing him/her your SS and arrive at a level that is consistent for Poopers and stay there for at least a week or two, taking numbers, being consistent with the shots and stay on one food that is low/lower in carbs and see where that takes you. Perhaps, (not sure of course) Poopers' body is confused and needs to have that consistency so that it can decide what it wants to do? Maybe, the higher dosage is causing the body to produce more BG in reaction?

Whatever you decide, I think that staying consistent might be key. I can only speak for myself and other members will likely have better solutions but, I'd go back to my vet, SS printout in hand and talk things over first. If you're not confident in your vet....try another for another opinion. But, I'm sure that other members with more experience will chime in and help as they always do. :) Hang in there!
 
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Honestly all, I get so many different answers. Some say to go low again because i was doing well on lower dose. However, the lower dose was in relation to a different insulin as I was on Novalin N at that time when he was on very low dose. That insulin works much differently than Lantus. Furthermore, he may have not been completely diabetic back then either so that is why I was seeing many blue numbers. IDK!
 
If it were me, I'd be listening to the experienced people here in FDMB who have high dose cats either due to IAA or acro.

I'd also be listening to people who have been around long enough to understand how the insulins work. you've done rebound checks to see if the dose was too high a couple of times so I would not do it again, IMHO. Poopers may be a high dose kitty with either acro or IAA. I believe some members on the L/L ISG forum sent you the links for the tests.
 
The people on the FB group don't all have the background and experience that the people here do and aren't really supposed to be giving advice on dose in the Facebook group at all Ryan.

The people here have the experience and have followed your and Poopers story from the beginning. You need to be listening to them.

What I do agree with is that Poopers needs to be tested for the high dose conditions. He needs to lose weight...and it's well worth TRYING to see if getting him off the Young Again makes any difference to his numbers. It sure can't hurt to at least TRY it, can it?

If you can get him active, with a harness and leash or just by finding toys he's willing to play with, that will help him to lose some of the weight he NEEDS to lose. China loved the toy "Da Bird"....you might try seeing if Poopers will chase it the way China will!
 
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Louellen said:
They also explained that while some people may be having good results with the TR protocol, it can work the opposite way for some cats as Insulin is not like a pain pill where some days you have more pain so you take more aspirin and other days, you have less so, you take less. It needs consistency.
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Those vets don't seem to know what TR Protocol is. It does not use insulin "like a pain pill" having you take more some days and less some days. TR for Lantus requires dose to be consistent and increases and decreases are only done when certain criteria are met after a certain amount of time to show their body has adjusted to the dose. There is no dosing scheme less random than TR.
 
Chris & China said:
The people on the FB group don't all have the background and experience that the people here do and aren't really supposed to be giving advice on dose in the Facebook group at all Ryan.

The people here have the experience and have followed your and Poopers story from the beginning. You need to be listening to them.

What I do agree with is that Poopers needs to be tested for the high dose conditions. He needs to lose weight...and it's well worth TRYING to see if getting him off the Young Again makes any difference to his numbers. It sure can't hurt to at least TRY it, can it?

If you can get him active, with a harness and leash or just by finding toys he's willing to play with, that will help him to lose some of the weight he NEEDS to lose. China loved the toy "Da Bird"....you might try seeing if Poopers will chase it the way China will!
Click to expand...
Yeah Chris, I don't take the advice of those on there because they are just there for support and I wouldn't trust what most say because everyone has a different opinion. I'm trying organic extra virgin coconut oil mixing in with his wet food.
 
I don't give dosing advice on Facebook, or here on FDMB unless I really know the cat, like Suki and Crystal in the LL forum.

I have, however, spent this morning getting up to speed on Poopers, the threads here on FDMB, and all the advice you've been given, Ryan. And you've received some excellent advice from the people here. The people advising you are the people who helped me realize I needed to get Cobb tested, on a great insulin, and, by following their advice, we ultimately got him in good numbers - earning reductions. We went from 31u at his highest (which I stopped at, due to the cost of the insulin) and he was on single digits of insulin just before he passed away.

Given the dose Poopers is currently at, you're going to hear more frequently that it is time to have him tested. I know how frustrating it is to hear that when you don't really have the money for the tests. When I found FDMB I had just had a baby and quit my job. We were living on one income with the bills and debt that we established on two incomes. It was also the same time we switched from Prozinc ($80 a bottle) to Lantus ($225+). So I completely understand your cost concerns. I shared my experience (and stubbornness:() with a high dose cat on the FB thread. I think we were up around 18-19 units of Lantus before we actually got the IAA test done. The vet who drew the blood grossly overcharged us with an insane markup, but what was I going to do. Her markup on the acro test was one reason we decided to not have it run. If you decide to have the tests done, see if the vet can work with you on a payment plan.

If Poopers has a high dose condition, there is no better place you can be than right here because so many of us have been through it. We can teach you the techniques that we tried, the techniques that failed for us, and the techniques that had success. What is most frustrating about this disease is that what works for one cat does not always work for another. There are some cats who have been on 50+ units of insulin twice a day. The techniques they used would have been dangerous for a cat who is on much less insulin, even if that cat were high dose.

I know people have said to be patient before. :) It never gets easier to hear! It took Cobb over a year on insulin to see any kind of meaningful results. My husband and I went back and forth on what to do -- from stopping any kind of treatment and letting nature take its course, and yes, we discussed putting him to sleep because we were spending A LOT of money and we felt it was just being thrown out the window! I've been MIA from FDMB since January (I've popped in every now and then) when Cobb passed. I definitely needed a break! But I'm trying to check back in more often than I have been.

I hope you'll stick around, ask lots of questions and follow the great advice you're getting! You really are in a great place!

~Suzanne
 
Melanie and Smokey said:
Those vets don't seem to know what TR Protocol is. It does not use insulin "like a pain pill" having you take more some days and less some days. TR for Lantus requires dose to be consistent and increases and decreases are only done when certain criteria are met after a certain amount of time to show their body has adjusted to the dose. There is no dosing scheme less random than TR.
Click to expand...

Like I said...I was only quoting what they said and mentioned that I wasn't saying that they were right. :) I've had more help here than I have from my vet for sure!
 
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Suzanne & Cobb(GA) said:
I don't give dosing advice on Facebook, or here on FDMB unless I really know the cat, like Suki and Crystal in the LL forum.

I have, however, spent this morning getting up to speed on Poopers, the threads here on FDMB, and all the advice you've been given, Ryan. And you've received some excellent advice from the people here. The people advising you are the people who helped me realize I needed to get Cobb tested, on a great insulin, and, by following their advice, we ultimately got him in good numbers - earning reductions. We went from 31u at his highest (which I stopped at, due to the cost of the insulin) and he was on single digits of insulin just before he passed away.

Given the dose Poopers is currently at, you're going to hear more frequently that it is time to have him tested. I know how frustrating it is to hear that when you don't really have the money for the tests. When I found FDMB I had just had a baby and quit my job. We were living on one income with the bills and debt that we established on two incomes. It was also the same time we switched from Prozinc ($80 a bottle) to Lantus ($225+). So I completely understand your cost concerns. I shared my experience (and stubbornness:() with a high dose cat on the FB thread. I think we were up around 18-19 units of Lantus before we actually got the IAA test done. The vet who drew the blood grossly overcharged us with an insane markup, but what was I going to do. Her markup on the acro test was one reason we decided to not have it run. If you decide to have the tests done, see if the vet can work with you on a payment plan.

If Poopers has a high dose condition, there is no better place you can be than right here because so many of us have been through it. We can teach you the techniques that we tried, the techniques that failed for us, and the techniques that had success. What is most frustrating about this disease is that what works for one cat does not always work for another. There are some cats who have been on 50+ units of insulin twice a day. The techniques they used would have been dangerous for a cat who is on much less insulin, even if that cat were high dose.

I know people have said to be patient before. :) It never gets easier to hear! It took Cobb over a year on insulin to see any kind of meaningful results. My husband and I went back and forth on what to do -- from stopping any kind of treatment and letting nature take its course, and yes, we discussed putting him to sleep because we were spending A LOT of money and we felt it was just being thrown out the window! I've been MIA from FDMB since January (I've popped in every now and then) when Cobb passed. I definitely needed a break! But I'm trying to check back in more often than I have been.

I hope you'll stick around, ask lots of questions and follow the great advice you're getting! You really are in a great place!

~Suzanne
Click to expand...


@Suzanne & Cobb(GA) I'm so sorry about Cobb's passing. I lost my orange tabby, Copper in March of last year due to kidney failure as well. (He was not diabetic).
It's so hard, isn't it? But, Copper was 18 years old and we'd been battling with CKF for 5 years before he passed. I'm not even sure (nor is the vet) whether it was truly his kidneys and not a sinus/brain tumour.
Again...my sincerest condolences and I know what you mean about needing a rest from thinking about feline diabetes and all that it entails. It is SO nice of you to come back and try to help others. :)
 
Louellen said:
@Suzanne & Cobb(GA) I'm so sorry about Cobb's passing. I lost my orange tabby, Copper in March of last year due to kidney failure as well. (He was not diabetic).
It's so hard, isn't it? But, Copper was 18 years old and we'd been battling with CKF for 5 years before he passed. I'm not even sure (nor is the vet) whether it was truly his kidneys and not a sinus/brain tumour.
Again...my sincerest condolences and I know what you mean about needing a rest from thinking about feline diabetes and all that it entails. It is SO nice of you to come back and try to help others. :)
Click to expand...
Thanks! We miss Cobb terribly. My 2-year-old still asks about him. "Kitty went bye bye." I don't want anyone to unnecessarily go through losing their cat, which is why so many of us come back to help, even when we don't have kitties of our own to treat anymore.
 
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