PMPS 277 - Normally over 300+. Do I shoot same dose? Shooting within hour. Please advise. Thanks!

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Ozzy Pawzbourne

Ozzy Pawzbourne

Member Since 2016
Ozzy's PMPS is 277. This is the lowest he has been PMPS and he has never been in the yellows PS. Do I give the same 1 u dose of insulin or give a lower dose?

Ozzy has been pretty PO'd today about not getting dry food. He has been doing pretty well the last few weeks on wet food only but we are still weaning our other kitty off the dry. Today I tried to give Figgie some secretly and Ozzy heard the crunchy munchies hitting the bowl and came running. He was a carboholic. I decided not to give Figgie the dry so Ozzy wouldn't get jealous. Aren't our cats emotions so much like humans!!?? Later this evening, Figgie was on the washer again begging for dry (this is where we usually gave him his dry food because we had to separate his dry from Ozzy or Ozzy would steal it all) and I snuck out to the garage and put a little in his bowl and brought it back into the house. But as soon as Figgie was crunching on it, Ozzy came running. Ozzy has been pretty pissed at me all day because Figgie is getting Ozzy's favorite food and Ozzy is not.

Goal is to get Figgie off the dry as well but we need to wean him.

Ozzy has eaten a good amount of food today but not his full portion. Trying to get him to eat a big PS dinner now.

So, back to my original question- do I give him the full 1 U of insulin with a PMPS of 277?

Thanks in advance to any responses.

Joanna
 
I think you could give the 1 u and test this evening. For greater peace of mind you could give 0.75 u. What do you think?

It would be helpful if you could add which time zone you're in to your signature info. Then we'd have an idea of how much time you have ahead to test, etc. and you'd know when we're headed off to bed.
 
I'm open to options.

Do you think his BG is lower because he didn't eat as much food today? I don't have much data and his PS numbers are jumping around still, but I think I notice a small trend downwards. What do you think?

I'm in California. Pacific Daylight Time.. It's 7:57 pm here now. Will update signature now. Thanks for the suggestion Kris.
 
Ozzy Pawzbourne said:
I'm open to options.

Do you think his BG is lower because he didn't eat as much food today? I don't have much data and his PS numbers are jumping around still, but I think I notice a small trend downwards. What do you think?

I'm in California. Pacific Daylight Time.. It's 7:57 pm here now. Will update signature now. Thanks for the suggestion Kris.
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Yes, there is an overall trend slightly downward. Not sure about today's numbers - maybe food or maybe a bit better response to this dose. I suggest you try to get several +2, +3 and +4 tests over the next few cycles. They don't all have to be back to back in one cycle. The Vetsulin tends to produce an earlier nadir, often around +4. You need data to see Ozzy's trends in the time range. If he does a nose dive at +2, say, and you've figured out he nadirs around +4, then you'd know you have a tense couple of hours ahead needing testing and maybe high carb snacks to keep him from heading down really low. Data is king!
 
Thanks for the feedback Kris. I'm going to go ahead with the .75U tonight. Will test him +2 and +4. I have noticed his nadir on vestulin is around +3 - +4. Thanks for helping me through this. I have those 'crunchie munchies' on hand if he goes low. I'm sure he'd love that! But trying to avoid all dry food.

I will try to do another curve here in the next day or so. I am off until Jan 3rd so lots of time to get more data.

Thanks again! :bighug:
 
Ozzy Pawzbourne said:
Thanks for the feedback Kris. I'm going to go ahead with the .75U tonight. Will test him +2 and +4. I have noticed his nadir on vestulin is around +3 - +4. Thanks for helping me through this. I have those 'crunchie munchies' on hand if he goes low. I'm sure he'd love that! But trying to avoid all dry food.

I will try to do another curve here in the next day or so. I am off until Jan 3rd so lots of time to get more data.

Thanks again! :bighug:
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You're welcome!
 
Ozzy Pawzbourne said:
I have those 'crunchie munchies' on hand if he goes low. I'm sure he'd love that! But trying to avoid all dry food.
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Do you have some Fancy Feast Gravy Lovers? That's what most of us use if they need some high carb food to bring up their blood glucose....it gets into the bloodstream faster than dry and clears faster too. The gravy part is very high carb. You just pop the top, put it back and squeeze the gravy into another bowl and give a teaspoon or two at a time

You can also add a few drops of Karo, honey or syrup to a little low carb food IF it's necessary to bring him up
 
Thank you for the advice. I don't have that cat food on hand but I will definitely get some next time I'm at the store. I have some of the FF with sweet potatoes on hand. I think that is a little higher in carbs than the classics.
 
Totally confused here.... just did a +1 and Ozzy went up to 321. He ate a good size dinner- all wet food- and his number went up. I gave him approx. .5 -.75U of vestulin about an hour ago. It's hard to tell the dosing with my syringes, so I had to try to eyeball it. Still - he should have went down in the hour. Will check him again soon.
 
Hi Joanna...not sure what to tell you but notified Linda( MrWorfmansmom) who has been helping me tonight. Bless her heart, Elmo and I have kept her up late tonight( I'm in Missouri, central time) ....what they always tell me is better high for a bit than low...have read over your info...maybe double check carb level of food ??? When we were early in this I use to write the carb number on the can ....still do some times just for safety, reminders.
 
Also I got the u40s with half unit markings ...that way you have the .50 marking to eyeball from. I still get wobble knees with the whole" eyeballing" thing....having the half unit u40s is helpful.....
 
what did you feed? If it was the FF Classics, they're fine

Any chance he actually got into a few kibbles? He's been trying awfully hard today!
 
Chris & China said:
what did you feed? If it was the FF Classics, they're fine

Any chance he actually got into a few kibbles? He's been trying awfully hard today!
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He has definitely been wanting his crunchy munchies today- but no, no chance he got into them. Figgie always gets his dry food separate in a bowl on top of the washing machine. Ozzy is a ground dweller and never could jump high enough to get on the washer.

He ate a combo from his petsafe5 tonight when the lid was up. I was just trying to encourage him to eat anything because he was turning his nose up to wet food today since he saw Fig get some dry kibble. The petsafe5 had a combo of different foods- Friskies pate, FF classics, and Sheba pate. All foods that I read on this site are low carb. Right?
 
Chris & China said:
You don't have any other tests at +1.....most cats do get a "food bump"

I wouldn't worry about it tonight......occasionally get a +1 so you can get a "feel" for what kind of food bump he usually gets
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I looked back at Ozzy's spreadsheet and only see I did a +1 two times, so not a lot of data. Both times, he went down in BG numbers, but I definitely get what you are saying about a 'food bump'. Gave him a slightly lower dose of insulin tonight due to his first yellow PS. I am feeling ok that he is going to be fine tonight.

He's really moody about not getting dry food. My cat is acting like a baby!!o_O
 
I see Chris explained the "bump" and it looks like he's dropping at a bit slower than usual rate tonight if you take the food bump out of the picture. Not sure how much longer you are going to monitor Ozzy. Chris are you going to be able to stay with Joanna a bit longer? I would like to hit the sack but can stay another 30 minutes or so if need be.
 
Chris & China said:
But could Figgie drop a few onto the floor for Ozzy to get into?
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I don't want to say never because I don't like to speak in 'absolutes' - however, I really doubt it. Figgie is a little prince and is so delicate and I don't know what other word to use besides 'tinky' because that's his nickname. Basically what I'm trying to say is that it's most likely that he did not drop any food down on the floor that Ozzy got into. His dry food dish is placed towards the back of the washer and most importantly, I actually closed Figgie off in the washer room because I was trying to hide the fact that he was getting kibble from Ozzy because I didn't want him to get jealous. Didn't work though- Ozzy must have smelled it or something. It is so funny to me that I'm trying to describe my silly kitties and explain how they get jealous, as if they were humans. But they really do act this way!
 
MrWorfMen's Mom said:
I see Chris explained the "bump" and it looks like he's dropping at a bit slower than usual rate tonight if you take the food bump out of the picture. Not sure how much longer you are going to monitor Ozzy. Chris are you going to be able to stay with Joanna a bit longer? I would like to hit the sack but can stay another 30 minutes or so if need be.
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Oh thank you so much for commenting MrWorfMen's Mom- both of you really! I really appreciate it. I honestly am not concerned for any type of hypo event tonight, especially since Ozzy ate good and we gave him a lower dose than he has been getting. I am just curious about the sudden change of events with his BG. Please please....go get your very needed rest! Thank you again so much for responding tonight!:bighug::bighug::bighug:
 
Beth 73 said:
Go to catinfo.org and she has most foods listed alphabetically by company with carb content. Think it's somewhere here on FDMB too. Super helpful !!
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Thank you so much for sharing this. I will definitely check it out and print it out for future reference.

This is exactly why I love this site and the folks on it!

THANK YOU!!!:D
 
MrWorfMen's Mom said:
My little guy has to check out everyone else's food bowls to ensure he is not getting an inferior meal!
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Hahaha!!! This made me chuckle so hard. Yes, my kitties do this too!!! Thanks for making me laugh! :) Good night Mr.WorfMen's Mom. I am sleepy too... made hubby baked ziti tonight and had a glass or two of wine and now I'm super sleepy too.
 
Ozzy Pawzbourne said:
Totally confused here.... just did a +1 and Ozzy went up to 321. He ate a good size dinner- all wet food- and his number went up. I gave him approx. .5 -.75U of vestulin about an hour ago. It's hard to tell the dosing with my syringes, so I had to try to eyeball it. Still - he should have went down in the hour. Will check him again soon.
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Sometimes dose onset may be a little later. Between that and perhaps Ozzy eating a little extra those are two reasons why one might see a slight food rise early in the cycle.

It's nice to hear about Ozzy and Figgie's antics! :cat:


Mogs
.
 
Ozzy has another yellow preshot this am. 273. I wasn't able to get another reading last night because I fell asleep good (baked ziti and wine will do that to you), but I am going to try to get a +2 and a +4 -+5 this afternoon and will post back. Maybe Ozzy is starting to trend downwards. Fingers/paws crossed!
 
Are you checking daily for ketones, Joanna?

When did you last check? (IIRC you were wondering whether it was trace or negative.)


Mogs
.
 
Yes, I am checking daily for ketones when I can get him to pee for me. Last time was yesterday. Looked more on the negative side at 15 secs. Been adding water to his food. Let me go see if he'll pee for me right now and I will post back.
 
I have to go to the dentist lab at 12:30pm. It's just a few minutes down the road. I can test him at 12:15 before I leave which will be +3 -45mins. I imagine I will be back within the hour around 1:30 so that would be +5 and I can test again. Are you concerned Mogs. Should I be concerned? I gave him a smaller dose again like last night. It's hard to tell on my syringes....I eyeballed a .75U pull but it could've been .5U.
 
Ozzy Pawzbourne said:
I have to go to the dentist lab at 12:30pm. It's just a few minutes down the road. I can test him at 12:15 before I leave which will be +4.15. I imagine I will be back within the hour around 1:30 so that would be +5 and I can test again. Are you concerned Mogs. Should I be concerned? I have him a smaller dose again like last night. It's hard to tell on my syringes....I eyeballed a .75U pull but it could've been .5U.
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That's absolutely dandy time-wise for monitoring, Joanna.

With only 2 yellow preshots one can only speculate - wildly! - about what might be happening:

1. The insulin support could be helping the pancreas rest.

2. Ozzy's body may be starting to respond to and better utilise available insulin.

3. The slightly smaller dose might 'suit him better' (less of a battle between injected insulin and homeostatic mechanisms in the body?).

(Need more data to get a better picture.)

The typical recommendation on FDMB for a no-shoot number is 200mg/dL (human meter) so Ozzy's well above that. Thus far his BG tends to drop c. 200-250 points on 1 unit Vetsulin.

The other consideration is Ozzy's ketone history so extra care needs to be taken when tweaking doses downwards.

Options:

- Give 0.75 IU - may not dip numbers down as far at nadir (hence importance of checking) but may smooth out Ozzy's numbers over the cycle (possibly not as high at preshot). Make sure to get a ketone check for peace of mind.

- Give 1.0 IU - possibility that numbers may dip into double digits so closer monitoring might be advisable in active part of cycle.

(Suggest leaving some food out for Ozzy while you're away from home today, regardless of dose.)

You hold the syringe, Joanna. I'm super cautious. If it were my cat:

- If I were home all day to monitor I'd do 1.0 IU.

- If I had to go out I'd do the smaller dose and be extra vigilant for ketones.

Whichever dose you give, I suggest snagging a test at +8 today so you can start getting a better picture of how long the Vetsulin is lasting in Ozzy's system.

I'm going to tag Linda (@MrWorfMen's Mom) to ask her to review these suggestions and see what her thoughts are. (I always prefer to have other experienced members check anything I post about insulin doses.)


Mogs
.
 
Critter Mom said:
The other consideration is Ozzy's ketone history so extra care needs to be taken when tweaking doses downwards.
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Thanks Mogs. Can you explain a little more about what you mean by your above comment on his ketone history? Specifically, with him starting to have lower numbers how do ketones play a part? I am going to test him again today when I can get him to 'pee on demand'. Ha! Like that ever happened to anyone. o_O

Ozzy now has his very own Petsafe5 and he gets food every 3 hours. I am wondering if this might be one of the reasons he is starting to throw some lower numbers. Maybe because he is eating every few hours it is giving something for the insulin to work with? I have also noticed he is not dropping as hard/fast but I only have a little data so it's hard to say. Ozzy doesn't eat exactly every 3 hours, he misses some of the compartments here and there; but overall, he is eating more small meals throughout the day then he has ever before. And he's on all wet food even though he really wants those crunchie munchies!
 
"Ozzy now has his very own Petsafe5 and he gets food every 3 hours. I am wondering if this might be one of the reasons he is starting to throw some lower numbers. Maybe because he is eating every few hours it is giving something for the insulin to work with? I have also noticed he is not dropping as hard/fast but I only have a little data so it's hard to say. Ozzy doesn't eat exactly every 3 hours, he misses some of the compartments here and there; but overall, he is eating more small meals throughout the day then he has ever before. And he's on all wet food even though he really wants those crunchie munchies!" [/QUOTE]


Ozzy has had a DKA episode so he's proven to you that he can develop ketones if BG stays too high. You want to keep this in mind when Ozzy gets stuck in higher numbers either because a dose is too low and is held too long or if a drop triggers bouncing that puts him up on the ceiling. Hence, small dose increases as needed but not too much to avoid bouncing.
 
Ozzy Pawzbourne said:
Thanks Mogs. Can you explain a little more about what you mean by your above comment on his ketone history? Specifically, with him starting to have lower numbers how do ketones play a part?
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The lower numbers are good news ketone-wise; the body is getting more glucose into the cells to provide energy for normal metabolism.

Cats with a history of ketosis or DKA tend to be more prone to developing ketones so they need closer monitoring. When considering a dose reduction in a ketone-prone kitty it's a good precautionary measure to keep a closer eye on ketone levels just in case the dose reduction might have an impact on ketone status.


Mogs
.
 
Critter Mom said:
Cats with a history of ketosis or DKA tend to be more prone to developing ketones so they need closer monitoring. When considering a dose reduction in a ketone-prone kitty it's a good precautionary measure to keep a closer eye on ketone levels just in case the dose reduction might have an impact on ketone status.
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Ok, this is very important to know. Thank you. He is eating again. Will try to get him to 'pee for me' when he is done and will test his ketones again. I am trying to do it once a day. I am adding more water to his food because of the weird looking inbetween negative and trace results. Will let you know what the next test reveals.
 
I was browsing Ozzy's sheet last night and was thinking then 0.75u to 1.0 seems to be the ticket right now. I just had another peak. I too tend to be super conservative and agree with Mogs.

If you can monitor, the 1.0u might push Ozzy down more at nadir but with monitoring/steering if need be, I think it's worth a try.

I also agree on the lower dose of 0.75 if you have to be out especially in the earlier part of the cycle. I use a different insulin but I have on occasion lowered my girl's dose for a cycle just to accommodate my schedule so I know she will be safe when I am out. I leave food out but can't be sure who is eating it. I'm guessing you might have the same problem! :rolleyes:

The ability to "graze" may very well be helping smooth Ozzy out a bit.

Gotta run and start loading the little one for a vettie visit. Will check back in later! :)
 
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