Please Help With Kitten's SS Numbers!

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cocokitten

cocokitten

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Hi gang! Took me a few hours, but I finally got Kitten's SS done! Hooray! :) Anyway, you'd think after shooting him over a year and a half that my husband and I would be insulin pro's, you'd guess WRONG! We speak to the vet all the time about what to do when his numbers are high and when they're low. She really doesn't have that great of advice other than staying on a certain unit until for at least a week before increasing. I find WAY MORE excellent advice from this forum. And I really and truly thank everyone for that! But I seriously need help on this one….

We had him on 2.5 units of pro zinc for about a week. Just tonight we went up to 3 units. I checked his nadir 6+ and he was 400. I'm not surprised to see the bounce.
I think the insulin is still good. We first punctured it on 8/26/14-liquid looks fine and expiration is next year.

My husband does the AM/PM shots, while I check the AM/PM nadir. (We work opposite schedules). While I get decent nadir numbers, he gets crazy high and sometimes low pre shot numbers. When he gets a low number, he feeds Kitten, checks his sugar, and then feeds him. I tell him that's wrong and that he has to wait 30 minutes, check, then feed, and shoot if his numbers are going up. Anyhooo, here's my million dollar question….what do we do when Kitten gets a low number and he's on 3 units? Tomorrow morning, my husband checks him around 4:30am. I don't wake up until 10am, but I will wake up to see what number he gets. Now if Kitten gets a number in the low 200's, do we still give the 3 units? Or do we adjust the amount to a lower number? When you see his SS, you see that he hasn't been responding well to 2.5. PLEASE HELP!

Jessica
 
Hi Jessica,

Sorry there was no one around last night to give uou immediate advice. Everyone in this forum has used your insulin but it is smaller than Health and not nearly as busy. If you ever have an emergency and need immediate advice, post on Health.

It may be helpful to read some other threads and look at those kitty's spreadsheets. Both Likeameow and WenDawg are new to this sugar dance and are dealing with bouncing. Kitten's ss looks very similar. Either he is bouncing (very likely) or the insulin is not lasting long enough (not as likely as he has gotten some lower preshots). Cats bounce until they get used to the lower ranges, but there are some things you can do to try to help.

Sometimes varying the feeding can help. Giving a little snack around +3/4 may slow the drop and lengthen the cycle. Might be worth a try. If there is no one home, an automatic feeder is great for this. (I love my PetSafe5. Easy to program and cat can't break into it)

At this point, I would not raise the dose. It might give you lower nadirs but can also make the bounce worse. I might even go back and try 2.25 and see if the curve flattens. I like your lowering the dose when you get a lower than usual preshot.

If your DH gives the food and then immediately tests, the preshot number should still be accurate. If he waits longer than 15 minutes or so, it is likely to influence the number. The problem with that is if the number rises because of the food, you are not shooting a true number, but an inflated one. Much safer and more accurate to dose the true number, not the food inflated one.

Check out some other threads and see how others are doing with bouncing. And welcome to the club!
 
Thanks for checking out his numbers Sue. :) I've been reading everyone SS for over a month here on the forum. And I also read everything I can on the bounces. The problem with Kitten is that he's got more than diabetes to deal with. He also had congestive heart failure and pancreatitis. He was diagnosed back in January. He's also prone to kitty colds. (Kitty Herpes). I have 2 other cats and they all pass that virus back and forth. My vet recommended Lysine. I sprinkle that in their food twice a day and it's keeping the kitty colds at bay. But Kitten's immune system could be better. So even if we're drill sergeants with his shots and low carb food, we just can't control a kitty cold and a fussy pancreas. And when that flares up, his numbers go wacky! His body is a fragile eco system. We're always rushing home to be there for his shot times. Our friends think we're crazy since we can only go out a certain time! But we love him dearly and make the sacrifice.

I also have to look into the U100's. I saw that awesome conversion chart last night. I think Kitten could really be helped on .25 increase/decreases instead of .5. My husband still doesn't see how much a difference that makes. Then again, he's not the one who reads the threads on this forum. Is there anywhere I can get the U100's without a prescription? I don't think my vet will understand the need for the different needles. And the vet I love is on maternity leave until December. Ugh.

I have an automatic feeder. Thing is, I'm not sure he'll be the one to catch the snack. And also, the few hours no one's home, he's usually fast asleep. But I'll give it a try.

I submitted his numbers for today. They're looking a lot better on 3 units. 378 AMPS, 178 6+. We shall see what he gets for his PMPS. Crossing fingers it's good. Now if we get a low number tonight, I know about waiting an hour. But what happens if he's mid 200's. Should I be concerned with 3 units?

Jessica
 
One of the ways to look at the numbers is to consider the percentage drop. So, if 3 units on 378 gave you a 50% drop, if 3 units on a 200 gave you the same kind of drop, he could drop fairly low. It's not an exact science (nothing about FD is :mrgreen: ) but it gives you a way to look at potentials. So I would lower the dose if you get 200. The last time you did the 3 units on a little higher preshot, you got the 191 and gave 2 units. The next cycle was a little wonky so I don't know whether 2.25 might have been good or whether the bounce extended into the next cycle (s)

It's a matter of collecting data and then looking back at patterns and trends to see how you might use that data. The more data, the better the guesses. :-D

A tiny amount does make a difference. .5 doesn't look like much and wouldn't be for a person, but considering the difference in weight, it's a huge sifference.

I'd call around and ask a drug store about the syringes. It varies by state. Post and get advice on the exact kind, if you can pick them up.
 
Hi Jessica! I saw that Sue already gave you excellent advice. I got my u 100 needles from American Diabetes Wholesale. If your state doesn't need a prescription, you might check there to see the prices.
 
Thanks for the info Sue. Good to know! I gave Kitten a treat +3 after his last meal at 11am and +9 after his AM shot. Hopefully he'll give us a better number for his PM shot (which we do around 5:30).

Rachel: I just checked at the website and yes, I can get the U100's! :) Should I get the 28g x 1/2cc or the 29g x 1 cc? Isn't that the size of the needle? Kitten's pretty good with getting stabbed. I let my husband do it. Freaks me out. That website also had a pretty good price on test strips. I usually get them on Ebay for a few dollars less, but the person I currently buy from takes so long to ship. We're always down to like 1 or 2 when we finally get them! OY! This site is good for a back up. And their syringe prices are very good!

Jessica
 
I believe you want .3 cc with 30 or 31 gauge needles. They were a bit harder to find but search that in ADW and you should find them no prob!
 
Just wanted to pop in and say "Hi!" Sue and Rachel give fantastic advice and support. Ben is one of the cats that Sue was talking about that is a champion bouncer. Feel free to check out his sheet and also my thread about treating a bounce. We still haven't got it completely figured out but he is a great example of what can cause a bounce. You can see how when he drops into the yellows his next preshoot number will be high. Good luck. And the U100 syringes work great for those tiny increases.

Here's a link to the ones on ADW...http://www.adwdiabetes.com//product...-insulin-syringes-31g-310cc-516-60bx_5739.htm

Good luck in your sugar dance!

Lisa
 
I'm very happy to report that thanks to you great folks and this forum, Kitten had his first day of near normal numbers all day long! I can't honestly remember the last time he had a whole day of staying under 300! SUE: treats a few hours after a meal is a GOD SEND! He's such a piggie and didn't mind waking up for a freezer dry chickie treat! I'm off from work on Mondays, so I got my notes to hubby to remember to give Kitten treats twice before he goes to bed for the rest of the week.

I did try the apple cider vinegar in his food and a little in the water. I've read amazing stuff about that and used to give it to him years ago when he first got crystals. I'll tell ya though, Kitten did NOT like being in a "Normal" range. I think he's so used to running high all the time. He was acting sleepy and a bit out of it. I checked his sugar every few hours and he was fine. Anyone see their kitty act lethargic like this?

LISA: Thanks for the link to the syringes. I still can't sell my husband on the U100 needles. He says it'll confuse him. Ugh. I would give Kitten insulin, but I'm either sleeping or at work during his shot times. He wants to follow the vet. I'll keep on him!

Jessica
 
Hi Jessica! I use apple cider vinegar in my cats' food. For some reason, two of them started developing UTIs on a fairly regular basis. After my credit card bill starting soaring (oh those vet visits!!), I did some research. The ACV has been awesome. My cats got used to the taste and it seems to be working (knock on wood!).

Have you considered using only u100s? The conversion chart makes it easy to use only those needles no matter what. That might help cut down on the DH's confusion. That way, no matter what, he always uses the conversion chart and never has to try to figure out when to use the chart and when not to. It's just a thought, but I was planning to do that with my girl. I was going to switch to just u100 when I ran out of u40s. Something to think about at least.

Let us know how it goes!
 
Sorry, I've been busy at work, but still collecting Kitten's numbers. His numbers have gone a little wacky this week. He and my other 2 cats have kitty colds. I'm assuming that's what's giving him bad numbers. His cold has calm down now, but his numbers are still in the 400's. I like his nadirs, but I'm hating the AMPS and PMPS he's getting. Haven't gotten the U100's. I just showd my husband this forum and he's now finally ok with me getting the U100's. :) So at this point, when I get the new needles, do I still continue raising his dose? Kitten's never gotten this much insulin before. But then again, he was on Lantus a good year before switching to Prozinc in August. I never really got him regulated on Prozinc. Could he be a cat that needs 4 units on this stuff? Any ideas?

Jessica
 
He is getting decent nadirs and may be bouncing for those pre shots. Or he may need a little more insulin. The only way to tell, Jessica, is to lower the dose a little and see if bouncing is the issue or to raise the dose a little and see if the red preshots improve. At this point, I think I'd try a smidge more insulin - 3.25 units? If you get a number in the 200s for a preshot, I would give less for that shot.

Yes, lots of cats get up in the 4 units before finally hitting a dose that starts changing the numbers. The idea is to gradually increase the dose until he is in better numbers, then gradually reduce. Bouncing does make this whole process more complicated.

Are you still giving him some snacks after the pre shots to help lessen that drop a little? It seems like you thought that helped?
 
Thanks for writing back Sue. :) Yeah, we've been doing the treats +2 and +3 (mostly in the evening). It's hard in the morning though. My husband gets up much earlier than I do. By the time I feed him (aroudn 10:30) he's already gone 5 hours without food. I'll try the automatic feeder, but with 2 other cats, I'm not sure if he'll get a snack. I'll give it a whirl. I'm also going to order those U100's and increase him a little. You recommend .25?
 
I think so. You don't want that nadir to drop a whole lot. And you can always raise it; it's harder to know if you went over a good dose if you raise by too much or too fast.
 
Thanks again Sue. Do you know the difference with the U100 syringes? I see 29g 3/10cc 1/2", 29g 1/2cc, 29g x 1cc, 29g x 1 cc 1/2", 28g x 1/2" cc. I guess it has something to do with the needle size? Should I post a separate thread on this question?
 
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