? Our cat was just diagnosed with diabetes. We don't want to jump to insulin but vet has us scared.

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bad things are coming unless she goes on insulin
Something bad will happen by then if she doesnt get any insulin
I don't understand what it is you're waiting to see or hear. So far 14 different members have all urged you to do the same thing, whatever insulin you choose you need to get on this right now. What I don't understand is you thinking there are no symptoms. The number you just posted, 374 is the symptom.
When you promise a forever home it's more than just food and a warm place to sleep, now you're breaking that promise. Sorry if that's not what you wanted to hear.
 
Glargine insulins have several brand names that are considered biosimiular. They are Lantus, Semglee and Basaglar. They work the same and I have used both Lantus and Semglee and have not noticed any difference between the two. Lantus is the most expensive and Semglee is the cheapest.

Levemir is another good insulin for cats. All of these insulins are human insulins that work well in cats. If your vet prescribes any of these, ask for the prescription for the pens instead of the vials. You will use the pens like miniature vials and use syringes instead of the pen needles. Using the syringe gives more accurate doses and no waste of the insulin.

The other good insulin is ProZinc. This is an animal insulin that you will get through your vet or can order online. It also works well in cats.

Avoid insulins like Vetsulin, Canisulin, Novalin or Humalog. These insulins do not work well in cats and are short acting. If your vet tries to prescribe one of these, tell them you want one of the ones listed above instead.

I agree, you should not wait to get the fructosomine test done to get your cat on insulin. There is a condition called diabetic ketoacidosis (DKA) that can develop quickly and this can be extremely dangerous and will require hospitalization.
 
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Lantus and Glargine are identical both alongside Levemir and a couple others are long acting insulins and are regarded by many as the best you can give a cat because they can achieve the most stable regulation for the longest possible duration and are very gentile. You don't have a couple weeks to wait, you've already used that up. I hope the best for your cat but to be honest the symptoms are hard to spot till they aren't and at that point it will probably be too late... If you'd poke your own finger and test or likely any of her siblings (though you might consider looking into them too because there is a genetic aspect to this disease) you'd realize its not just a number and its not just slightly off.
 
She's 374 today, down from 384. No symptoms. We have an appointment in a couple of weeks for a fructosamine test and most likely insulin. I'm getting all different recommendations for the best insulin. We have Trupanion but one vet on JustAnswer said to insist on a human insulin pen called, Glargine. another poster here mentioned Lantus.
I got The Lantus. It is the brand name for glargine. There is a Lantus savings card on the Lantus site and will cost 99 dollars plus tax. Your Trupanion will cover most of it. I believe you only pay 10% depending on what plan you have . So 10 dollars and it lasts you 6 months. Pet insurance also covers the pet meter Alphatrack the Libre sensor and everything diabetes related. For the Libre sensor you can use the Good RX discount. Walmart has 2 for 70. After insurance you pay 8 dollars for 2. You need to start insulin asap. the more you wait the more you are hurting the kitty,s chances at remission. You know what they say smart people learn from others’ mistakes.
 
Lantus is one of the brand names for glargine. It is now available in generic/biosimilar forms that are much less costly.

Given that your cat's blood glucose is consistently outside of normal range, waiting to start insulin is less than ideal. The longer your cat is diabetic, the less likely remission. In addition, if numbers are outside of the normal range and should there be an infection or inflammation present, you increase the risk for diabetic ketoacidosis (DKA). DKA can be deadly if not caught and aggressively managed.

Obviously, this is your decision. None of us have stock in the insulin companies. We want to see your cat have the best chance for good health.
 
@LoCarbCat Hello, I am no expert but I can guarantee you that listening to volunteers here will be the best decision. This forum accumulates experience in helping thousands of diabetic cats, hundreds of them (including my PenPen) have successfully gone into remission. There is almost 0% risk to doing what the volunteers tell you to do, insulin is very safe, and very high risk (or even eventually fatal such as DKA) of not giving insulin. Act now! It cannot hurt to try!
 
Don't forget the $5,000-$9,000 price tag for the "aggressive management" and hope it doesn't happen 3 times in a month... Ask me how I know :woot:

She's now 364 with no physical symptoms. In fact, the low-carb diet, or decline in BU, has dramatically changed her. She's become very active, playful, and not obsessed with food. I hate to do anything to interfere with this trend. If she were put on insulin, when it goes down to 300, will we be told to withdraw the insulin?

BTW, What were your cat's numbers and symptoms when it required aggressive management?
 
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She's now 364 with no physical symptoms. When it hits 300 we will be told to withdraw the insulin. Right?

What were your cat's numbers and symptoms when it required aggressive management?
It's not just about the BG number. Some cats have high numbers and don't produce ketones (until they do) which is the cause diabetic ketoacidosis (DKA). I wasn't fortunate enough to know he was diabetic before he developed DKA, but his BG number when we took him to the first ER was 334. We very quickly became concerned when he started acting lethargic and stopped eating (he never refuses a meal). By the time I was actually able to get him into an ER about 12 hours later (because they were all at capacity and not accepting patients when he became sick) he could barely hold his head up. When they discovered he was in DKA they told me DKA only has about a 60% survival rate (with aggressive treatment/hospitalization -- without it the survival rate is 0%) they said they weren't sure he'd make it through the night and asked if I wanted to euthanize him instead of taking a chance on spending all that money with the very real possibility he may not make it. I opted to try after agreeing to the $8000 estimate. He thankfully did make it and I started giving him insulin and testing him frequently. The second time it happened (21 days later) his numbers were in the high 200s/low 300s. The third time it happened it was less than 24 hours in the 400s. I'm terrified it's going to happen again, so I now test him 15-20 times per day and have to give him sub-cutaneous fluid injections everyday. We're still not sure he's going to be able to make it in the long-term. He went from being 9.5lbs to 5.9lbs. He's lost over a pound since this all started a little over a month ago (that's a lot for a cat) and that's with eating about 3 times the amount of food a normal cat should have. DKA is the worst complication that can happen to a diabetic cat, but certainly isn't the only thing. Dehydration, vomiting, severe depression, problems with motor function, diabetic neuropathy, cateracts and renal failure are among the possible outcomes from untreated feline diabetes. Many of these complications may not be observable (ie. depression, dehydration, etc).

Insulin and testing is a very cheap insurance policy to make sure this doesn't happen to your cat. I'd do anything to go back a year and be able to avoid everything whats happened by just giving him insulin. If you'd like to read my first post here with all the details you can read this thread: https://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/5-24-new-member-henry-in-dka.263720/

The good news for you is that by following a specific protocol (called "tight regulation" or TR) which includes doing home monitoring and insulin adjustments with the help of the amazing people on this forum, cats have something like an 80% chance of attaining remission if the protocol is initiated within 6 months of diagnosis.

edit: you can see all my cats numbers by clicking where it says "Henry's SS" in my signature below, but the actual numbers fluctuate wildly and are only a small piece of the puzzle.
 
She's now 364 with no physical symptoms. In fact, the low-carb diet, or decline in BU, has dramatically changed her. She's become very active, playful, and not obsessed with food. I hate to do anything to interfere with this trend. If she were put on insulin, when it goes down to 300, will we be told to withdraw the insulin?

BTW, What were your cat's numbers and symptoms when it required aggressive management?

Hi @LoCarbCat
Can i ask why will you be told to withdraw the insulin when it goes down to 300?
300 is still a very high number and she will still need insulin regardless of the low carb diet.
I will just make my plea for you to start insulin.

You say there are no physical symptoms but there are physical symptoms going on inside her that you cannot see.
You see your cat all day long and you don't notice the slight changes that are going on daily like weight loss due to malnutrition because your cat cannot absorb nutrients, internal organ damage, high blood pressure, dehydration, weakness and nerve damage etc.
I say this because we didn't notice Duke's symptoms either as it crept up day by day and i'm sure a lot of members will have been in the same boat.
We also tried the the low carb no insulin method but he like your cat his BG was just too high to bring down by food alone and he went onto insulin and within a month or so his BG was back into normalish numbers and he was a different cat.
Please don't look back in time and wish you had started her on insulin sooner, cats are very good at hiding their symptoms.
From her first test a month ago she was 473 and now she's 364, that's not a big drop, hardly a drop at all and the LC diet is not enough.
You say you are having a fructosamine test next week but you will get the same results as your getting now, because with the fructosamine test all it does is it takes an average of the BG over the last few weeks and you already know that.
I don't really like to say this but please please don't put your fears over your cats health.
 
I could have not said better than @Teetee (UK). please please don't put your fears over your cats health.

Insulin for a diabetic pet or human is like air and water. Cannot live without it. No insulin for a diabetic is a form of torture. The nutrients are not absorbed so the body eats itself out basically. I don't wish that on to anyone. May sound harsh but life is not always easy or fair. Your cat is diabetic, 300 is ridiculously high (3 times the normal) and that was a point in time. it can get higher throughout the day. I tried the diet thing and all I accomplished all glucose toxicity. Cat gets used to the high numbers and then even with insulin it is much harder to get the numbers down. Every day wasted is a day further and further away from diabetic remission. If no remission in 6 months, the chances get considerably lower. How much time are you willing to bet? Time is flying and 6 months will creep up quickly. Also the bigger the cat the more insulin they may need and the harder to get remission. I should know because mine is 17 pounds. Was 20 and lost 3 pounds but as numbers crept up that did not help much. If you really care about your baby you need to take action now. With diabetes there is no time to go through the 7 stages of grief. Sounds like you are still in the denial phase and stalling hoping it is not happening but it is. We have all been there. It is hard but not impossible and there are many success stories here. Complete strangers united by an incredible love for their furry babies and so much sacrifice as if they were their own children. I am personally very inspired by people on this forum. I hope you step up and do the best for your child. Not for you for your kitty. Sorry if I sounded harsh but I wish someone gave me a reality check a while back.
 
She's now 364 with no physical symptoms.
but there are physical symptoms going on inside her that you cannot see.
We have a saying here, start low and go slow. You won't be pumping a liter of insulin into her; you start at a low dose, test, do a few curves and see what works.
Those numbers are too high and they are the physical symptoms.
If you're waiting for someone here to agree with you that just isn't going to happen. Your cat needs insulin and nothing is going to change that.
 
If you still have doubts, best thing would be to get another opinion from another vet. I have seen 3 and all 3 told me the same thing. But fast no more stalling. I saw Chewy has free virtual advice from vet if you have auto ship. I never used Chewy's vets. Or consult vets from your area but do something and do it now. Time for stalling and denial has passed. Take action NOW. We all want to help here that is why the tough love. We don't do it because we have nothing better to do trust me we do.
 
I'll tell you a quick story that's not about pity or tragedy. Please listen.
15 years ago this month I had brain surgery for a nearly ruptured aneurysm. I could choose to have nothing done but every year after that my chances of survival went down by 5% or I could have the surgery. Not wanting to be selfish and stupid by leaving my wife with a big house, nine cats and a dog I had the surgery. It was done with a scope and as promised I was home the next morning. No bandages wrapped around my head, no holes drilled, no drama. That was a gift of modern medicine and technology. You have been given that same gift, being able to get a meter from Walmart that fits in the palm of your hand and being able to do all this at home is almost a miracle of modern medicine. Why you have chosen to ignore this gift and the honest advice you're getting here from people who actually care is beyond me.
Today is 33 days since you got those lab reports. It's not about you, it's about the cat.
 
Here are some inspirational stories so you can read and get to your own conclusions. If you click on prior links you can see the entire journey. You cannot make any of the struggles and sacrifice and love for our babies up and this just proves it.

This is @John & Henry 's journey so far. Very dedicated and kitty loving parents here:
https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/6-30-henry-wc-amps-326-ket-0-6.265247/#post-2970615

Here is @Hendrick Cuddleclaw - the journey of a kitty that is in remission - after months of hard work and dedication

https://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/6-7-hendrick-amps-94-3-84-9-88-10-5-86-pmps-82.264271/

Again if you click on the link to the prior condo you can see the entire journey. You cannot make this type of stories up even if you wanted to. This is to inspire you hopefully as I got inspired. Knowledge = power. power=control, control=less fear.

Sorry I will just keep being annoying because this forum helped me so much and I know you can get a lot of help here too. Time to take a leap of faith :bighug::cat:
 
If she were put on insulin, when it goes down to 300, will we be told to withdraw the insulin?
I don't know where you were given that information the ONLY time you might be advised to withhold insulin is when you're just starting out and if you see a preshot of 200 on SLGS or 150 on TR even then it's unlikely you'd completely withhold. Remission is when you see mostly double digit numbers with only a few in the lower 100's and you've successfully worked your way down the dosing ladder. I doubt she's dropped at all 384, 374, 364 these are all basically the same, there are so many variables that can fudge the numbers 10 mg/dl even just waiting another 30 min to feed or meter inaccuracy's try to remember the higher the numbers go the less precise the meters become. I wouldn't worry too much about withholding once you start after a month and who knows how much longer your probably gonna have a hard time drawing her numbers down... A fructosamine has kind of become irrelevant. You now have about 3 weeks of separate test all saying the same thing all the frutosamine is gonna do is average out those three weeks and spit out a higher number than you've seen so far (because I'm guessing your testing several hours after food so she could be spiking into the 4 or 5 hundreds post meal). To be blunt this is about as bad as withholding food, with what we've seen she is without a shadow of doubt diabetic and there are only 3 humane option's you have, treat her with insulin (preferential), you give her to someone who will treat her with insulin (second choice), or you euthanize her (I use the term "humane" loosely here... I'd never actually want someone to do this for something as treatable as diabetes but if you're going to stare at her till she slowly waste away to a horrible and sickly death at least this is quick and painless). I'm sorry to be so blunt but diabetes is not going to wait and your cat is supposed to be your best friend not a lab experiment. There have been enough lab experiment cats killed to build our understanding of this disease, don't let yours become another! One last note insulin wouldn't "disturb the trend" it would catalyze it and really get things moving.
 
I understand it is normal to have the wishful thinking that it would be just all right especially when there is seemingly a "good trend".

However, this is just not true, good behavior of the cat does not mean its diabetes don't need to be managed and healed, and it is too late to start insulin only if they show outward physical sign.

Think about this:
If you don't give insulin, the best scenario is diabetes is magically healed by itself (which has never been seen on any cat/pet/human). The worst scenario is DKA. The most likely scenario is the cat starting to be too sick to not give insulin, and due to the delay, the chance of remission is greatly decreased.

If you give insulin, the best scenario is remission quickly (like my Penpen goes into remission within a few months. ) The worst scenario is your cat can continue to enjoy a normal life with you using insulin.

Just think about the risk, the volunteers have handled thousands of diabetic cats here, why would we strongly urge you to use insulin? It is because we put your cat in the best interest, and we have seen cat end up badly.
 
The man who developed insulin, Sir Frederick Banting, won the Nobel prize at age 32. Still the youngest ever Nobel laureate for Physiology/Medicine. His home is an official heritage site about an hour away from here.
Before insulin diabetes was a death sentence. The most effective treatment was to put patients with diabetes on very strict diets with minimal carbohydrate intake. This could buy patients a few extra years but could not save them.
This is a classic Yes or No thing, there's no in between. Do you love your cat? Yes or No
 
I understand it is normal to have the wishful thinking that it would be just all right especially when there is seemingly a "good trend".

However, this is just not true, good behavior of the cat does not mean its diabetes don't need to be managed and healed, and it is too late to start insulin only if they show outward physical sign.

Think about this:
If you don't give insulin, the best scenario is diabetes is magically healed by itself (which has never been seen on any cat/pet/human). The worst scenario is DKA. The most likely scenario is the cat starting to be too sick to not give insulin, and due to the delay, the chance of remission is greatly decreased.

If you give insulin, the best scenario is remission quickly (like my Penpen goes into remission within a few months. ) The worst scenario is your cat can continue to enjoy a normal life with you using insulin.

Just think about the risk, the volunteers have handled thousands of diabetic cats here, why would we strongly urge you to use insulin? It is because we put your cat in the best interest, and we have seen cat end up badly.

There is another school of thought. https://www.ocregister.com/2014/11/...n-cats-is-about-quality-of-life-not-a-number/

"The most important conclusion we drew is that diabetic regulation should be based on the individual cat’s quality of life and clinical signs. A cat with stable weight and fairly normal amounts of drinking and urination should be considered a well-regulated diabetic. His blood sugar values are secondary considerations. It should not be a goal to have the blood sugar at any specific value."
 
I might only point out that cats are masters of masking illness. It’s a survival mechanism. So what we “see” isn’t always a reflection of true health or well being…

Might I ask why the hesitation with administering exogenous insulin? It’s a hormone that the cat’s body makes naturally, although in the case of a diabetic, there’s a glitch in their ability to manufacture/utilize enough so they need a bit of an “assist,” sometimes just temporarily. Just curious…
 
The article listed above says “ insulin and consistent diet are needed to best control disease but cats can probably survive at least some amount of time without it” this article isn’t saying cats don’t need insulin - it does argue pro-zinc may be better than Lantus. It says vet curves may not be less accurate than home curves but my cats numbers were vastly different at home vs in the vet office. This article is also almost a decade old and not from a reputable medical journal so I’d be weary about just finding an article from google that agrees with your views and trusting it completely.
 
There is another school of thought. https://www.ocregister.com/2014/11/...n-cats-is-about-quality-of-life-not-a-number/

"The most important conclusion we drew is that diabetic regulation should be based on the individual cat’s quality of life and clinical signs. A cat with stable weight and fairly normal amounts of drinking and urination should be considered a well-regulated diabetic. His blood sugar values are secondary considerations. It should not be a goal to have the blood sugar at any specific value."

It depends on what your ultimate goal is though right? Do you want you cat to go into diabetic remission and become diet-controlled? If so, then YES the BG numbers matter a lot. It has been proven that if you can use insulin to keep the BG in a range that is the same as a normal non-diabetic feline for as much of the time as possible, the pancreas can heal.

Your beautiful Norwegian Forest Cat's pancreas can actually start working again! I was so devastated when Hendrick was diagnosed but when I found out that if I really really worked hard and gave insulin properly I could maybe just maybe get his pancreas to heal -- I was sold right then and there. A no-brainer, as they say.

And that is exactly what happened. Today, Hendrick no longer needs insulin. But he DID need it to get here - so does your kitty. Along with Hendrick, there are many more FDMB member's cats that have gone into remission just in the past few months and several that are on the cusp at this very moment.
 
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There is another school of thought
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(13)61108-3/fulltext
You're getting life and death medical advice from the Orange County Register? You would have to agree that The Lancet is a more qualified source of medical information wouldn't you? Here is another school of thought. In 1952 during one of the worst Polio outbreaks "Public health officials were convinced that the disease was transmitted by bedbugs, budgies, cats, and flies, or caused by seafood, cow's milk, jimson weed, fruit, vegetables or that it was more likely to attack children who were plump and well nourished, with a broad face, freckles, and gaps between their teeth”.
It should not be a goal to have the blood sugar at any specific value."
That may be the single most idiotic thing I've seen in all the time I've been here. Now I know why your vet had you sign a legal waiver.
My most sincere apologies to all the other members who have posted here. Clearly I'm not helping matters any so I'm out.
 
@Noah & me (GA) -- While the reporting in the Orange County Register may be accurate, the article was published in 2014. Needless to say, science changes and an article that is 8 years old is likely to be ancient history.

@LoCarbCat - I'm linking the guidelines from the American Animal Hospital Association on the treatment of diabetes. This link is from 2018 and includes the 2022 update.

I am also going to lock this thread to future comments. Please feel free to start another thread. I don't want you to feel like you're being beat up by the comments. The members here have given you their best advice. Frankly, I agree with the majority opinion. However, this is your cat and the decision regarding whether to treat your cat's diabetes is yours. You've been advised about the risks for not starting treatment. That is all we can do.
 
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