OTJ, Kinda flat PM cycle but look at her go now!
- Thread starter Catannc
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kse
Very Active Member
Re: Kinda flat PM cycle
Sometimes, even if something like pancreatitis is contributing to the insufficient supply of insulin-- by compromising the pancreas, you still need to give insulin until the condition reverses.
I realize that your vet told you to take Kitten off of insulin and "see what happens"--BUT..it appears that she needs insulin now. I would be very scared to let my cat run in the high numbers the spreadsheet is showing, without giving insulin. In the "long run" Kitten might go OTJ, but there is nothing in her spreadsheet that indicates to me, that she can do it now.
Please continue to check for ketones. Insufficient insulin supply is a main contributing factor to the development of ketones, so while she is off of insulin-- please check vigilantly. Ketones can develop very quickly.
These are just my thoughts.
Sometimes, even if something like pancreatitis is contributing to the insufficient supply of insulin-- by compromising the pancreas, you still need to give insulin until the condition reverses.
I realize that your vet told you to take Kitten off of insulin and "see what happens"--BUT..it appears that she needs insulin now. I would be very scared to let my cat run in the high numbers the spreadsheet is showing, without giving insulin. In the "long run" Kitten might go OTJ, but there is nothing in her spreadsheet that indicates to me, that she can do it now.
Please continue to check for ketones. Insufficient insulin supply is a main contributing factor to the development of ketones, so while she is off of insulin-- please check vigilantly. Ketones can develop very quickly.
These are just my thoughts.
Lisa & Jax
Active Member
Re: Kinda flat PM cycle
Morning,
Just trying to keep up...why did you decide to skip your PMPS shot and your AMPS shot? I'm confused...? confused_cat
Morning,
Just trying to keep up...why did you decide to skip your PMPS shot and your AMPS shot? I'm confused...? confused_cat
Jenn & Baxter
Very Active Member
Re: Kinda flat PM cycle
Looked @ SS maybe not OTJ just yet....but maybe soon. I am not one to help with dosing. You need some blues & some green colors on the SS.
Its time in the ProZinc family for a OTJ party. It's been awhile.
Looked @ SS maybe not OTJ just yet....but maybe soon. I am not one to help with dosing. You need some blues & some green colors on the SS.
Its time in the ProZinc family for a OTJ party. It's been awhile.
Catannc
Active Member
Re: Kinda flat PM cycle
We're doing it under advisement of the vet, he said based on her tests and response to insulin he doesn't think she is really diabetic-but that she may very well be. Basically if he had treated her initially she would have changed diets without insulin and waited to see what that did before starting insulin. He is concerned that she crashed on me on an initial starting dose, and that day by day her response to insulin keeps growing to where she is responding to microdosing like a cat normally responds to full units. Also concerned with the steep plummet at onset. So, he proposes trying no insulin for a couple days just to see where she's at before returning to insulin if needed.
We're doing it under advisement of the vet, he said based on her tests and response to insulin he doesn't think she is really diabetic-but that she may very well be. Basically if he had treated her initially she would have changed diets without insulin and waited to see what that did before starting insulin. He is concerned that she crashed on me on an initial starting dose, and that day by day her response to insulin keeps growing to where she is responding to microdosing like a cat normally responds to full units. Also concerned with the steep plummet at onset. So, he proposes trying no insulin for a couple days just to see where she's at before returning to insulin if needed.
Sue and Oliver (GA)
Very Active Member
Re: Kinda flat PM cycle
I'm with Kim. I know she was only getting a tiny amount but she seems to need it. Her last cycle on .1 with your manipulating the food was very nice - in the regulated category. I am thinking a few cycles like that would be very good for her body. But I know you like your new vet......
If you are going to leave off the insulin, be sure to test for ketones.
I'm with Kim. I know she was only getting a tiny amount but she seems to need it. Her last cycle on .1 with your manipulating the food was very nice - in the regulated category. I am thinking a few cycles like that would be very good for her body. But I know you like your new vet......
If you are going to leave off the insulin, be sure to test for ketones.
Jenn & Baxter
Very Active Member
Re: Kinda flat PM cycle
Geez this sounded like my vet. I tried to do what he said about trying no insulin, Baxters #s climbed. When the vet called one day I just told him...Baxter #s climbed & so I start to continue with insulin. He agreed that Baxter needed insulin.
BG 300s+ aren't normal BG ranges for cats. You will start to see diabetic symptoms in those ranges. Ketones being one of the major concerns. They happen fast & will kill a cat.
Getting the BG down with insulin helps support the pancreas. Even when you get into the 200s giving a micro dose will help support the pancreas for a possiblilty of pancreas repair. The key is to not strain the pancreas, but support the pancreas. Insulin helps do this.
Catannc said:
Geez this sounded like my vet. I tried to do what he said about trying no insulin, Baxters #s climbed. When the vet called one day I just told him...Baxter #s climbed & so I start to continue with insulin. He agreed that Baxter needed insulin.
BG 300s+ aren't normal BG ranges for cats. You will start to see diabetic symptoms in those ranges. Ketones being one of the major concerns. They happen fast & will kill a cat.
Getting the BG down with insulin helps support the pancreas. Even when you get into the 200s giving a micro dose will help support the pancreas for a possiblilty of pancreas repair. The key is to not strain the pancreas, but support the pancreas. Insulin helps do this.
Lisa & Jax
Active Member
Re: Kinda flat PM cycle
Interesting call by your vet, but I am not surprised by it. My old vet called me crazy because he said no one doses out of increments of 1, 1.5u etc... It seems to me that your kitty needs some insulin...and that amount may just be .1 or .2 which is going to be very hard for your vet to grasp because it may not be in his/her frame of reference although we see it all the time on FDMB.
If it were my cat, I don't think I would let days pass, with him being in high numbers, without dosing insulin.
Perhaps a follow up call to the vet with your data may be in order. I cannot imagine a vet will hear your cat is in the 400's and tell you to hold back on the juice. That sounds crazy.
Interesting call by your vet, but I am not surprised by it. My old vet called me crazy because he said no one doses out of increments of 1, 1.5u etc... It seems to me that your kitty needs some insulin...and that amount may just be .1 or .2 which is going to be very hard for your vet to grasp because it may not be in his/her frame of reference although we see it all the time on FDMB.
If it were my cat, I don't think I would let days pass, with him being in high numbers, without dosing insulin.
Perhaps a follow up call to the vet with your data may be in order. I cannot imagine a vet will hear your cat is in the 400's and tell you to hold back on the juice. That sounds crazy.
kse
Very Active Member
Re: Kinda flat PM cycle
Just continue to test her BG, test for ketones....and gather data. With that information, it should become clearer what is happening.
I do think you have found a good vet! I love the advice of changing the diet before starting insulin. In my opinion that is Great Advice. It is so much harder once you start insulin while feeding high carb wet or dry to change the diet.
You are doing great! Either way...OTJ or with insulin, you will figure it out. And, if she goes back on insulin, that does not mean she will not come off of insulin later.
Good Luck!
Just continue to test her BG, test for ketones....and gather data. With that information, it should become clearer what is happening.
I do think you have found a good vet! I love the advice of changing the diet before starting insulin. In my opinion that is Great Advice. It is so much harder once you start insulin while feeding high carb wet or dry to change the diet.
You are doing great! Either way...OTJ or with insulin, you will figure it out. And, if she goes back on insulin, that does not mean she will not come off of insulin later.
Good Luck!
Catannc
Active Member
Re: Kinda flat PM cycle
Thanks guys, I wanted to let her run one more cycle with NS just to see if she would come down any from last cycle once her body realized it couldn't count on having external insulin. She is now +2 and 262 so we will see. I have the same concerns you do, trust me, and am really torn between letting her ride and shooting her again..... I will call and speak to him to let him know my (our) concerns. He's already emailed me a couple of times today and is monitoring her SS through the link just as you do. In fact he asked for information on how to get/use the SS for his other diabetics, he thinks you have created an amazing tool, so I think we'll be getting a few more members soon.
Thanks guys, I wanted to let her run one more cycle with NS just to see if she would come down any from last cycle once her body realized it couldn't count on having external insulin. She is now +2 and 262 so we will see. I have the same concerns you do, trust me, and am really torn between letting her ride and shooting her again..... I will call and speak to him to let him know my (our) concerns. He's already emailed me a couple of times today and is monitoring her SS through the link just as you do. In fact he asked for information on how to get/use the SS for his other diabetics, he thinks you have created an amazing tool, so I think we'll be getting a few more members soon.
Lisa & Jax
Active Member
Re: Kinda flat PM cycle
Good Luck! I don't mean to come down hard on your vet. He does sound like he supports your efforts and he listens. Kudos for that alone. I hope she does come down on her own! You are doing a great job.
Good Luck! I don't mean to come down hard on your vet. He does sound like he supports your efforts and he listens. Kudos for that alone. I hope she does come down on her own! You are doing a great job.
Sue and Oliver (GA)
Very Active Member
Re: Kinda flat PM cycle
The 262 isn't bad. Maybe we need to be patient and see what the cycle looks like.
The spreadsheet is available to anyone who signs onto google docs and find FDMB spreadsheet. We 'd love to share!
The 262 isn't bad. Maybe we need to be patient and see what the cycle looks like.
The spreadsheet is available to anyone who signs onto google docs and find FDMB spreadsheet. We 'd love to share!
Catannc
Active Member
Re: Kinda flat PM cycle
Yes, he seems like a good man and has told me that my efforts so far are impressive. To find out that he doesn't even want to switch her diet from the food I'm making....amazing. I hope his call is correct on this one, I was gonna give her a break and only test at 0,4,8,12, but looks like she'll be getting a few more sticks so I can get some more data before he leaves at noon. That 262 is right on curve with yesterday when she was on .2 u, and his theory was it wasn't really the insulin giving her that curve and she should show about the same NS....we'll see soon.
Yes, he seems like a good man and has told me that my efforts so far are impressive. To find out that he doesn't even want to switch her diet from the food I'm making....amazing. I hope his call is correct on this one, I was gonna give her a break and only test at 0,4,8,12, but looks like she'll be getting a few more sticks so I can get some more data before he leaves at noon. That 262 is right on curve with yesterday when she was on .2 u, and his theory was it wasn't really the insulin giving her that curve and she should show about the same NS....we'll see soon.
Lisa & Jax
Active Member
Re: Kinda flat PM cycle
Fascinating...
Fascinating...
C
Carl & Polly & Bob (GA)
Guest
Re: Kinda flat PM cycle
Did your vet prescribe any meds/treatment for p-titis? Fluids or pain meds? P-tits "hurts", and pain elevates BGs.
Carl
Did your vet prescribe any meds/treatment for p-titis? Fluids or pain meds? P-tits "hurts", and pain elevates BGs.
Carl
Catannc
Active Member
Re: Kinda flat PM cycle
No, he didn't. He did ask in detail about how she was behaving right now, maybe that was why. She is not dehydrated, was not at diagnosis even and I do check her skin tenting and water in/out. Other vet had her on a course of antibiotics, zeniquin. Diagnosis was about a month ago, and she was acting sick at that point, poor thing did go without pain pills. I will say she is happy as a clam right now, active, loves eating but not crazy appetite like before, she does not have the look of a sick cat...right now she's rolling around on the floor with a mouse in her mouth and there is no catnip involved.
No, he didn't. He did ask in detail about how she was behaving right now, maybe that was why. She is not dehydrated, was not at diagnosis even and I do check her skin tenting and water in/out. Other vet had her on a course of antibiotics, zeniquin. Diagnosis was about a month ago, and she was acting sick at that point, poor thing did go without pain pills. I will say she is happy as a clam right now, active, loves eating but not crazy appetite like before, she does not have the look of a sick cat...right now she's rolling around on the floor with a mouse in her mouth and there is no catnip involved.
Sue and Oliver (GA)
Very Active Member
Re: Kinda flat PM cycle
I love having to eat my words! Go Kitty!
I love having to eat my words! Go Kitty!
Sue and Oliver (GA)
Very Active Member
Re: Kinda flat PM cycle
Whoop whooo(anti jinx this time)
Whoop whooo(anti jinx this time)
Sue and Oliver (GA)
Very Active Member
Re: Kinda flat PM cycle
Patience, grasshopper. (are you old enough for that reference?)
We consider a cat in remission when she is between 40-120 without insulin for 2 weeks with the majority of the time in double digits.
Not that her numbers aren't encouraging this morning. They definitely are!
Patience, grasshopper. (are you old enough for that reference?)
We consider a cat in remission when she is between 40-120 without insulin for 2 weeks with the majority of the time in double digits.
Not that her numbers aren't encouraging this morning. They definitely are!
Jenn & Baxter
Very Active Member
Come on pancreas! :RAHCAT
hmjohnston
Very Active Member
Those are looking good!
Come on Kitty :!:
Come on Kitty :!:
Grayson & Lu
Very Active Member
From one that had a ketone scare last week - THAT'S HUGE!!! Hope everything continues going so well!
Catannc
Active Member
Well, was hoping for much better preshot than yesterday, but 367 is still lower (i know, meter variance) than yesterday. So values for today run parallel to the last 4 days well within meter variance...so it is her body doing this. Hoping BG continues to improve and there's no other underlying condition causing this. What do you guys think, anyone seen this before?
Cathy
Cathy
Sue and Oliver (GA)
Very Active Member
Yes, check out Wendi's spreadsheet. She changed to wet low carb and stopped insulin. She is getting 200-300s which are great but a little above the renal threshold. I think she's considering mini dosing.
I am not saying you need to. I would give your trial a while longer. Just keep monitoring for bg levels and ketones.
I am not saying you need to. I would give your trial a while longer. Just keep monitoring for bg levels and ketones.
kse
Very Active Member
Well, it is interesting and I don't completely understand it! But, in the big picture the numbers are still too high in my opinion. You will get different opinions...but, somewhere in the 150 range and below is considered non-diabetic. I am not saying I would stop your trial, but if the numbers stay where they are now and if Kitten was my cat, I would start micro-dosing insulin. Sometimes the pancreas just needs a little help to get back going!
Maybe search out the user Hollyall-- she was in PZI and microdosed and got her kitty off of insulin. I also think a user named totallybeachin was a microdoser. It might just give you some additional information to read, in the event you do need to start back giving drops. You can search the members page...then click on the users name..and when their profile comes up...click on their post.
Good on the negative ketone test! Please continue to be vigilant about testing for ketones while she is off of insulin.
Maybe search out the user Hollyall-- she was in PZI and microdosed and got her kitty off of insulin. I also think a user named totallybeachin was a microdoser. It might just give you some additional information to read, in the event you do need to start back giving drops. You can search the members page...then click on the users name..and when their profile comes up...click on their post.
Good on the negative ketone test! Please continue to be vigilant about testing for ketones while she is off of insulin.
Catannc
Active Member
I will, I have looked at wendi's ss and see much of the same thing....think now I understand more now. The vet wanted to check back on her on monday and see how she was doing, discussed maybe having to go back on insulin at a small dose. The great thing is now we know what her BG curve looks like without insulin and can actually tell what the insulin it doing..... here's hoping that without the insulin she may continue to improve as her body realizes it's not getting a shot, big difference from last night to today.
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