OT: Please help... Spirochetes

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mariko

mariko

Member Since 2011
Hello LL friends,

First, I want to apologize for my absence for so long.... work has taken over my life.
I feel embarrassed about coming back here only to ask for your help, but I couldn't think of a better place.

My new cat, Cashmere, has been having intermittent diarrhea for a while.
Her poop was normal when I adopted her in December, and the shelter also said she didn't have diarrhea.
Then during diet change trials from kibbles to wet (she is picky), she started having diarrhea.
I didn't worry at first because I thought it was because of the food change, but because it didn't go away after over 2 months of mostly wet, I brought her poop sample to the vet today.

The sample wasn't good enough to send to the lab (covered with too much litter), but they did look at it under microscope, and found spirochetes!!!
And they gave me Tylosin. I am to give her a 75mg capsule twice a day for 10 days, which I have started tonight.

The vet didn't mention about treating Ginger too, but I am worried about her carrying it too.
Ginger doesn't have any symptoms, but she's always had strong gut.
What are the chances Ginger also has it? They don't groom each other, but they share LBs.
I don't want to treat Cashmere, only to get it again from each other........

I am also worried about having to pill Ginger, because she has a dental appointment next Friday, and I don't want to stress her.
But at the same time, if she also has it, it may be compromising her immune?

Please help.
Should I call the vet tomorrow for another Rx for Ginger?
Should I get her poop tested too to see if she has it or not first, or should I just start her on Tylosin too?
Thank you for any info you can give.

Mariko, Ginger, Cashmere
 
I think I'd ask your vet tomorrow about how it's spread and what to do about Ginger.

I don't know much about it, but just wanted to send you some support. :bighug: And of course you should come here! Someone will know about it.
 
Thank you so much, Julie, for your quick reply and support.
I kind of wanted to avoid having to pill Ginger because I've never had to pill her and I know she's going to be a difficult one, more so than Lucy was.
But a bean has to do what she has to do......
I am just feeling a little upset about bringing it to this house, especially for Ginger.
I have no idea where it came from... It probably came with Cashmere from the shelter, but she didn't have any symptoms in the first month.
Both are indoor cats. I am puzzled and very bummed.
 
Have you ever used pill pockets? One of my cats, Anya, is trained so i can throw a little ball of empty pill pocket on the floor and she'll eat them. I pilled punkin like that for probably a year - it was awesome. I gave her a little empty ball when i gave punkin his wrapped around his meds. No poking it down his throat! I just used only the minimum needed to cover the pill.

You might try doing that with Ginger. Since you don't have to worry about getting a sugar-free one, you could use any of the yummy flavors. Just throw a little ball on the floor.
 
I have tried ALL flavors of pill pocket with Ginger when I was figuring out the best way to pill Lucy, and neither of them ate any of the flavors willingly. :mad:
I am thinking about opening the capsule and mixing the powder with tuna if I have to pill Ginger too, and see if I can fool her that way, but I heard Tylosin is quite bitter. :nailbiting:
 
Hi Mariko, sorry for Cashmere- (((Cashmere))) Poor baby! Can't you get that Tylosin compounded into something a little more acceptable tasting? Or maybe even better, this website says it can be purchased as an injectible? I would call your vet tomorrow and ask about Ginger- I would not give her anything until you find out for sure that she needs medicine. I'm not a vet, but I would never give something that wasn't prescribed to that pet. You might want to ask your vet about giving a probiotic to help Cashmere's little tummy recover some of the good bacteria as well?

I googled spirochet because of course I never heard of it! :eek: Did your vet happen to tell you exactly which type of Spirochete you are dealing with? According to Dr. Google, there is one that causes Lyme disease for example, but the treatment is docycycline.
 
Thank you, Ruth.

No, they didn't tell me what type of spirochetes, and I'm not sure if they even found that out because the sample wasn't sent to the lab for a complete analysis.
The plan was to try Tylosin first, and if it doesn't help, collect a better stool sample to send to the lab.
I got choked when I read that some of the spices of spirochetes cause lymphoma, and got scared and stopped reading the web, and decided to come here. :oops:
 
I am so sorry, I didn't read that it wasn't sent to the lab...:blackeye: I saw where tylosin is a broad spectrum AB, makes sense. I know what you mean, the internet can be TMI, but remember this is treatable and it sounds like you were on it right away! :bighug::bighug: Please keep us posted !
 
Thank you again, Ruth.
I did get to look at the spiro-thigy under the microscope.
They were little squiggly things (not moving, but spirally).... Ewwwww.
I was thinking while in the bath just now that if I manage to collect both cats' decent stool samples over the weekend, I may get them sent to the lab anyway, so I'm not guessing.
I hate guessing. :confused:
 
Hi Mariko. Sorry, no experience to share, just hugs. :bighug: You might want to put a duplicate post on the Health forum to see if someone over there has experience.
 
I do think Ginger is at risk. I also consulted with Dr. Google and this kind of bacterial infection can also be transmitted to humans. I would really encourage you to talk to your vet. I'd be very curious whether he had a reason for not providing you with more information both for you, your family, and Ginger.

Just as an FYI, one of the posts I read indicated the type of antibiotic depends on the severity of the infection and a typical course of ABs is 4 weeks.
 
Here are some of the Merck Veterinary Manual spirochete topics. Lyme disease is one, there are others. Some of these are transmitted by various biting insects, including ticks and flies.
 
((((Mariko)))), I do hope that your vet will be able to give you more information and that Ginger isn't infected with the spirochete (which I have never heard of). Do call your vet on Monday and make arrangements to have samples from both Cashmere and Ginger sent to the lab. If, as it seems, there are different types of spirochete, you need to know which one you are dealing with.

Sending lots and lots of healing vines for Cashmere and lots of calming vines for you, and lots of "don't get it" vines to Ginger,

Hugs, scritches,

Ella & Rusty
 
Thank you for your support, Wendy, Sienne, BJM and Ella.

I just called the vet and talked with her about my concerns.
She said she wasn't really worried about Ginger having it mainly because they don't interact with each other, which is true.
The vet said that Ginger could get it via litter box, but she said that would be rare.
I asked if it could be transmitted via urine, and she said this particular strand of spirochetes Cashmere has doesn't, so apparently she knows which kind, but I forgot to ask.
I also asked her if it could be diagnosed by blood test because I read this (http://www.petmd.com/cat/conditions/infectious-parasitic/c_ct_leptospirosis) on the web, which of course made me very concerned (Cashmere = bio-hazardous?), but she said this one can't.
I don't really understand how what Cashmere has and what I found on the web aren't the same thing, but the vet really didn't sound all that concerned.
Maybe different strands... maybe different stages of infection.....
I asked if I could have gotten it, and she said in theory, people can get it from their pet, but she thought it was highly unlikely, and in reality she's never had anyone getting sick from it.

The vet suggested that I bring Ginger's poop if I'm worried, and it would be easy enough for them to take a look in-house, and I'd know for sure.
She said she didn't want to put Ginger on antibiotics if she doesn't need it, and I liked that.
So, I'm going to try to collect a good sample over the weekend, and bring it to the vet.
I will ask them to take a look while I wait.
If they don't find it, I will ask if it's possible they don't see it but it's still there, and if culture is done, they'd see it.
If they say yes, then I'd ask them to send the remaining of the sample to the lab.

That's my plan so far...
Well, at least it's a good thing they aren't friends yet.
And Ginger is doing really well. Good appetite and good LB actions.

Thank you again for your help.
I will let you kow what I find if I get to bring Ginger's poop for testing.
 
Hi again, Mariko,
This sounds encouraging. Please make sure the vet tells you what kind of spirochete Cashmere has (write it down!) and ask her which antibiotic will target that specific type of bacteria. It might not be a bad idea to have separate litterboxes.

:bighug::bighug::bighug:

Ella & Rusty
 
Thank you, Ella.
I will remember to ask the type of spirochetes when I bring Ginger's sample!

I have 4 litter boxes in my small 2 bedroom apartment - my idea was 2 private boxes each.
But Cashmere rarely uses hers, and always uses Ginger's.
I lock her in her room with 2 boxes for about an hour at each meal time, and that's the only time she uses her boxes. :mad:
 
The poo patrol is semi retired these days, but are ready for "bug be gone" duty! Paws crossed all is easily treated and not shared amongst the four legged family and bean. Poo vines coming your way.
 
Hi Mariko,

I'm following your thread because the spirochete topic caught my eye. I don't think that I have much info to give you, but I am curious to know what the actual species is. I assume that when you took a fecal sample in, the vet did a focal flotation. A spirochete is a type of bacteria. Bacteria can be classified by shape (cocci, bacilli, spirochetes, etc). They are very tiny organisms and difficult to spot in a normal fecal flotation. It may be a bit easier in a fecal smear, but they would still be very tiny, compared to the other types of parasite ova and cysts that would show up.

I have really limited experience here, but I was taught that you can't ID a bacterium based on morphology alone. You would have to do things like a gram stain, a culture, a PCR test, etc. I think, though, that the number of gastro-intestinal spirochetes is pretty limited. One example might be Helicobacter spp., but I don't think you would see that in a fecal. It's also interesting that the vet is treating with Tylosin, which I have found to be quite helpful with treating diarrhea in my cats, but I'm not sure which specific bacteria it might target.

A Facebook friend also recently mentioned her vet commented that her vet saw spirochetes in her cat with chronic diarrhea. Unfortunately she was in the same boat as you, as the vet was not more specific about the species. That Facebook thread broke off into a discussion of Giardia and Tritrichomonas foetus, but those are not bacteria (they are flagellated single celled organisms), so I'm not sure how they were linked to a spirochete discussion. They may have come up in reference to the fact that the vet in that case was treating with metronidazole, a common treatment for Giardia. Apparently T. foetus is a growing cause of diarrhea in shelter cats. I think that Tylsosin is used to treat Cryptosporidium in cats, but that again is a protozoan, not a bacterium.

Anyway, sorry I can't be of much help, but I am watching your thread with much interest to hear which species of spirochete bacteria this turns out to be. I hope that Cashmere feels better soon!

p.s. if they show you the organism under a microscope again, ask the vet tech to help you take a photo of it with your cell phone (through the eye piece)!
 
Thank you very much for your well wishes, Anne and Carla.
And thank you very much for the information, Linda. It was very helpful.
Sorry I couldn't come back to report sooner, I had to go somewhere, but I got to collect Ginger's poo sample 15 minutes before the clinic's closing time, called the vet and they said I could bring it in.

I got more info.
What Cashmere has is "Campylobacter jejuni".
I explained to the vet why I was so worried, because I found some scary information on the web.
She told me what I read was probably about Leptospira, but Cashmere didn't have it, but what she had was Campylobacter, and she apologized for not giving me more information.
I googled it when I got home, and I am not really good at finding information on the web, but to me, it seems like Campylobacter is a different group of bacteria from Spirochetes.
So I don't understand why the vet called it "Spirochetes" in the first place, unless I'm misunderstanding, which is entirely possible.
Is Campylobacter jejuni a different strand of Spirochets but in the same group?
Maybe because of the spiral/wiggly/wormy shape?
Anyway, although I haven't done a whole lot of readings on it yet, Campy-thingy does seem less scarier than Spiro-thingy.

The vet looked at Ginger's poop, and she didn't find it.
She said Ginger's poop looked totally normal and healthy.
I told her that I was going to litter-box stalk her the whole afternoon, but I fell asleep and she went while I took a longish nap, so the sample wasn't terribly fresh.
And asked her if a fecal culture would be a good idea, and she said she really thought it would be an "over-kill", especially because Ginger is not showing any clinical signs.
She thought it would be better to treat just Cashmere for now, and if it doesn't help and the cats start getting sick, we'd investigate more, but she really thought Cashmere would be just fine in a week or so.
So I didn't push it any further.
Ginger is doing particularly good these days, eating all her food and even playing some, and I didn't want to mess that up by giving her antibiotics because she's getting her dental done next Friday.

I have no knowledge of different techniques of testing poop, but I don't think how they tested Cashmere's poop was a focal flotation.
I didn't know how they do a focal flotation, so I googled it and it didn't look like how they prepared it.
I think they smeared it on a slide and stained it.
The microscopic image of Cashmere's poop they showed me looked similar to the googled images of gram-stained bacteria, sort of pinkish in color.
I also googled "gram stained image of Campylobacter", and some of the images appeared looked very much like what I saw.

I forgot to ask why she chose Tylosin to treat Cashmere. There is always something I forget to ask....
But my impression was that she made a conscious choice because in the past they have almost always Rx'd Metronidazole to treat diarrhea.
I'm still a bit worried about the course of treatment being so short, just for 10 days, but I didn't question it.
Her symptom is pretty mild, just some puddin' poo, and she's not sick. No vomiting or fever. Her appy is good and she is playful, so maybe that's why?

So my plan is this.
Treat Cashmere only with Tylosin as vet directed for now and see how it goes.
If it doesn't help, run more tests.
Even if her diarrhea is treated, I will talk to the vet about sending both cats stool samples to the lab for fecal culture during their next check-up appointment, which is sometime in summer, to make sure they are not carrying anything.
How does this sound?
Now I think about it, it's weird I've never thought of doing it in the past.... only blood and urine.
Maybe they don't suggest it for indoor cats?

Any thoughts and suggestion will be very much appreciated.
Thank you very much again.
 
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Spirochete is a group of different organisms, named for their shape. Here's a Google search of images.
My trio from my vet (5 years ago!) had both campylobacter and giardia. it was some pretty nasty smelling output, let me tell you!
 
Thanks so much for the update. This is interesting. I think that Campylobacter jejuni is technically a bacillus (rod), but the rods themselves each twist into a spiral shape, and they join end to end to form a W or characteristic seagull shape. They are also flagellated and gram negative, so they would stain pink, like you saw. I think that because of the spiral shape of the rods, they do sometimes get classified as spiral bacteria. They do need special growing conditions (microaerophilic or reduced oxygen) in a lab. They can be difficult to gram stain. Kudos to your vet/vet techs for doing a stained fecal smear and spotting that!

As Sienne mentioned above, this bacterium can be transmitted from humans to cats and from cats to humans, so use good hygiene around the litter box, and use bleach to clean up any spills on the floor. In reading a bit about it, it appears that treating uninfected pets is not recommended due to issues with antibiotic resistance. I think that your plan is a good one, and I think your vet is doing a great job on this!

http://www.wormsandgermsblog.com/uploads/file/M1 Campylobacter - Owner(11).pdf
 
Thank you everyone for your info and support!
Linda, thank you so much for sharing your knowledge. It is very helpful.

I just did a round in the apartment with Lysol wipes.
Linda, if you are reading this, I have a question please!
Do you know how long this bacteria survives outside intestines, in the normal environment?
I wiped particularly carefully around the litter boxes and high traffic area, but what if I missed some spots?
Also I can wash her beds and cushion covers, but I'd rather not have to wash them every day, but I wouldn't really know when she'd stop shedding the bacteria.
And what about cat tree or sofa??
Because Cashmere is a long-haired cat, she sometimes gets poopy bum, and who know where else she sat!
If this bacteria doesn't survive that long in the normal room environment, I won't worry too much.
But I'm worried that after she's treated, she'd go sit and groom somewhere that has an invisible old poo smear or something, and get it again.

Worries never stop. :arghh:
 
Yet again we learn something new here. Paws crossed for quick healing.

Diluted bleach in water (as Linda suggested above) is a better cleaning solution than Lysol. There are some concerns about Lysol and cats. It's fine as long as the area is dry before the cats touch it. I definitely wouldn't use it on furniture.
 
OK, thank you, Wendy.
I'm out of bleach now, but I'll go get some later.
What is the diluting ratio of bleach/water? Do you know?
 
I hope I didn't freak you out Mariko! I'm sorry if I did. I don't know how long it lives outside the body, but because it has fairly specific lower oxygen preferences, I'm going to guess not very long. Cashmere is already undergoing treatment, so the shedding of bacteria is likely going to slow down and then stop. This is not a terribly dangerous bacterium. Transmission is by oral ingestion of fecal material. As long as you observe ordinary standards of hygiene such as scooping the litter box regularly, and washing your hands or using a hand sanitizer afterwards, you should be perfectly safe. Remember that sometimes perfectly healthy cats with no symptoms shed bacteria such as this. We can't protect ourselves from everything.

If you see visibly soiled bedding, then you could wash it in hot soapy water. Otherwise, I would not try to keep all bedding and surfaces cleaned beyond what one would normally do. I would not worry about invisible poo soiling. I had a long haired cat (Bear Man) who had a poopy bum, and I would ask the vet to trim his back end hair into a bit of a shorter vanity trim to make cleaning him up easier. He often got an undignified bum shampoo in the sink, but having the back hair trimmed helped.

It sounds like you have already gone above and beyond the call of duty. I think that using normal good standards of hygiene - keep litter boxes clean, dispose of feces properly, remove and wash visibly soiled bedding, clean up visibly soiled surfaces, and wash your hands after these activities - should keep your household safe. I'm certain that if your vet thought there was a danger to you or your other kitty she would have advised you to take extra precautions.

It sounds like your apartment is nice and sparkly clean right now, so you should sit down and enjoy a well deserved rest.
 
OK, good, thank you, both.
Thank you very much, BJM. I am going to make some bleach solution today.
And thank you again, Linda! Now I feel so much better. I can relax now.
I'm even starting to feel good about the whole thing, that I now know the cause of Cashmere's diarrhea, and it wasn't IBD or food allergy, which I was afraid of.
These were really so very hard to deal with, and it's hard on the cat too......

Thank you very much again!
I knew this was the place to come for help!
 
just an fyi, i know Cashmere doesn't have this, but I recently read that hand sanitizers do not kill C. Difficile. Punkin developed that after treatment with Clindamycin - which again is a different situation. But if i had the choice, I'd go with bleach water and washing hands with soap over using a hand sanitizer post-poop-handling.
 
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