? Opinions on late night testing tonight/ inconsistencies on definition of 'active cycle'

[apple]

Ok.....different people and different posts don't show agreement on what an active cycle is.

Is there a definitive answer? Somewhere?

I've seen +2 & +3 used....
I've seen specific point ranges given and each person has their own take on it.

What is the universal recognized-by- all- definition?

Site specifics.

Thanks

Pmps 282
+3 195

Depending on which post I believe, i either need to expect the bottom to drop out or go to bed no worries. Too much variance.

Three hours and almost 100 points.

Who is right, active or no?

Thanks

 

[Jill & Alex (GA)]

Ok.....different people and different posts don't show agreement on what an active cycle is.

Is there a definitive answer? Somewhere?

For sake of discussion I'll be speaking in terms of meters calibrated for humans...

Initially, an active cycle is one where you'll actually see the insulin peak. That doesn't mean the insulin has to peak in greens. If numbers are high overall, the insulin may peak in the 100s or 200s.

Is there a definitive answer? No. There can't be because it's individual to the cat and where they are in the regulation process.

In other words,

• this is an active cycle for Fluffy: 300 - 275 - 230 - 200 - 250 - 290 - 310
• this is an active cycle for Spot: 105 - 120 - 78 - 65 - 54 - 73 - 89 - 97
• this is an active cycle for Tiger: 73 - 69 - 64 - 63 - 50 - 48 - 86
• ETA - this is an active cycle for Willow: 427 - 212 - 102 - 73 - 88 - 598 (taken from a real ss)

Pmps 282
+3 195

Depending on which post I believe, i either need to expect the bottom to drop out or go to bed no worries. Too much variance.

Three hours and almost 100 points.

Who is right, active or no?

I hate to say this because I know you're not going to like it and my comments won't help you tonight. The bright side is the information could help you out in the future...

It depends. What does your cat usually do under those circumstances? Without a view-able spreadsheet I have no way of helping you figure it out. When does onset usually occur? When is kitty's nadir? How much duration is kitty currently getting from this dose? Is kitty currently getting any carryover or overlap? Historically, what kind of patterns have you seen under similar circumstances? All these things have to be weighed and analyzed before anyone can responsibly answer your question... emphasis on "responsibly".

Just my thoughts...

 

[apple]

That helps.

Thank you for the examples that helps me to understand.

Checking my understanding;

Part of 'active' depends on where the cat starts at for the preshot number.

Some cats don't have 100 points drop.

And active doesn't always mean just going straight down.

The cat can have a number higher then PS#, go up and then go down.

Previous posts have said dropping 100 or more is when it's active. And also, other have said over 150 points in drop, so I was basing active on looking for a point spread and that was a specific specific amount.

Now I see why the different numbers. Depends on start point. Some cats can't go down 100 points.

So I can't say, he only dropped 50 we're good. If a cat starts lower, 50 for that cat may be active.

Also adding.....reread my original post. Sorry for the tone. I sound not so polite.....i had gotten done with a day of packing, was more tired than I thought. So tired that I fell asleep, poor guy didn't let his post shot snack and no meals and no +anything.

I'm just glad to wake up and he's here.....he got extra hugs and kisses


Again, sorry for the tone of the post....more tired than I realized.

Now, I must test and feed on hungry feline.

Thank you again.

Edit....turns out i forgot to feed me and I'm dehydrated too. Going to feed and water feline and human. (And day 2 of packing). Thank you for the info Jill & Alex (GA).

Edit: Willow's example is what I was thinking active mean. A big drop drop first to second number then down to double digits. That active (in my mind) was the big drop and then the big drop leads to double digits. I thought if there was the drop 'watch out' your cat might get down to double digits.

So done active just mean making a curve (smile) shape on a graph?

I thought active was: PS#, +2 bg# big drop from PS#- like 100 lower, then the rest of the +#s lead down to double digits.

No?

 

[rhiannon and shadow (GA)]

Apple...
Did you see that Marje said yes , she would set up a spreadsheet for you?
She needs you to respond to do so.

Look up at the top of the page.... there is a little word that says inbox. It should have the number 1.
Click on it.

 

[Kris & Teasel]

I hate to say it again but you'll find the advice we can give to be very limited if you won't set up a spreadsheet. You might end up in a panic situation after your vets' hours and need help and we won't be able to guide you. Please consider this for your kitty's sake.

 

[Jill & Alex (GA)]

Responses are in blue font:

Part of 'active' depends on where the cat starts at for the preshot number.
Not necessarily. An active cycle can start from high, low, or numbers in-between.

Some cats don't have 100 points drop.
Correct.

And active doesn't always mean just going straight down.
Correct.

The cat can have a number higher then PS#, go up and then go down.
Correct in that some cats may have a +1 and maybe +2 that's higher than the preshot number before dropping. You'll see this most often in kitties that experience food spikes or cats on Levemir (Lev onsets later than Lantus).

Previous posts have said dropping 100 or more is when it's active. And also, other have said over 150 points in drop, so I was basing active on looking for a point spread and that was a specific specific amount.
I've never much liked putting specific numbers on any concept because they rarely hold true for all cats in every situation. I avoid doing it because IMHO, that type of explanation confuses more than it helps.

Now I see why the different numbers. Depends on start point. Some cats can't go down 100 points.
That's true. When a cat starts with a preshot number of 50, there's not 100 points to drop.

Straying a little off topic... that's why we say "shoot low to stay low". Using the methods we use here (systematic and methodical increases and reductions taken when called for), when treating Alex I was more worried about numbers bottoming out when she had preshot numbers in the 100s than I was with double digit preshot numbers. In other words, she had farther to fall from 100s than double digits.

So I can't say, he only dropped 50 we're good. If a cat starts lower, 50 for that cat may be active.
Exactly. A drop of 50 could indicate an active cycle... depending on the cat and where that particular cat is on their diabetic journey.

Edit....turns out i forgot to feed me and I'm dehydrated too. Going to feed and water feline and human. (And day 2 of packing). Thank you for the info Jill & Alex (GA).

You're welcome. And no need to apologize. Most get testy under pressure. As long as it doesn't turn into rudeness, everyone understands.

Edit: Willow's example is what I was thinking active mean. A big drop drop first to second number then down to double digits. That active (in my mind) was the big drop and then the big drop leads to double digits. I thought if there was the drop 'watch out' your cat might get down to double digits.

Well, now you know better!

So done active just mean making a curve (smile) shape on a graph?

In theory, yes. However, personally, I dislike talk of a smile shaped curve when talking about the long-acting insulins because Lantus or Levemir curves come in all sorts of shapes... sometimes lop-sided, sometimes inverted, and sometimes curves that bobble up and down. It all depends what is happening at that moment. Lantus and Levemir are best viewed as "waves of action"... meaning waves that usually last over 3 days. Smile curves are best left to describe the curve action in a single cycle when using the P insulins.

I thought active was: PS#, +2 bg# big drop from PS#- like 100 lower, then the rest of the +#s lead down to double digits.

No?

Sometimes, but as we've previously discussed and how I illustrated in my first response to you... *active* can look very different from one cat to another.


Hope this helps a little.
And yes, as everyone says... please get a spreadsheet up and running. Spreadsheets are not required, but keeping up a spreadsheet is how we can best help you.

Have a good day!

 

[Marje and Gracie]

One thing I would like to add to Jill's excellent response is that the BG can drop a different rate over a few or several hours.

I have often seen members point out that a cat dropped 100 mg/dL in two hours and so they must be dropping 50 mg/dL an hour. Not necessarily true. They might have dropped 70 in one hour and 30 the next. Or perhaps they dropped 30 from +1 to +2 and then 70 from +2 to +3 when the insulin onset. So it's wise to never assume a cat is dropping or will continue to drop at a steady rate.

The offer still stands for me to do the SS for you. I will need some info so please send me a PM. I think your concern was twofold: one that the color ranges on our SS format aggravate your migraines and two that you have 17 vets who want different formats.

I can easily use the same colors but mute them so they are more pastel but we still have red, yellow, pink, blue, and green so those helping you can see the waves of action but they hopefully will not aggravate you.

On the second, there are other members who use a different format to appease their vet. If it were me and I felt this SS was not conducive for my vets, I would develop ONE for all of them and the tell the vets...who work for ME...that i have what I have and they can use it or not. They are not likely all giving dosing advice (you wouldn't want that anyway) and they have enough education to be able to read basic BGs.

 

[rhiannon and shadow (GA)]

sending a pm ( private message) is by clicking on marje's name....
and then click on start a conversation.

it really is the best way for all of us to help you.... and we will be able to show you what an active cycle will look like for your cat.
This is what we ask for everyone here who needs advise from time to time.

 

[Bobbie And Bubba]

Apple, I have to agree with the others about your SS; it needs to get up and running or I am not comfortable reading your post anymore because I feel like I am giving advice with blindfolds on. Please take up Marje's offer ( several times now ) to get you up and going.

 

[Darnell & Sprocket (GA)]

I had trouble with setting up spreadsheet too but Chris set up mine and I got the hang on it on my cell phone now I have adjusted his ss with food and meds on it too so I can keep tract of it all on one page. Its great to start seeing what you do daily and what you do when you get certain bgs. Its great to learn from because all the info is there and info starts to pop out to you the more you enter daily.
Its great to use!