Opie and the Flat Pancake

Marje and Gracie said:
Im sorry no one responded. The PZ board just doesn’t get the traffic that the Lantus and Main Health boards get.

I’m glad you’ve been staying on top of this. It’s a good idea to reduce again in the morning. You can always go back up if you need to.

I hope you rechecked 30 mins after you fed that 29. Remember high carb food wears off after two hours so if he comes up, you’ll have to keep texting to be sure the BG stays up.

I’ll check back in shortly.
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Thank you Marje, I can always count on you. He went into a huge bounce and is now now red. Also lowered the dose a second time. We are now at 1.5 and I can only hope that is enough to bring down the high numbers today.

If there is a forum just for ProZinc then I think it is important that someone be there to help. I think it is wrong to leave people in the dark just because another forum may be more popular. Everyone deserves to be heard or don't have it there at all. Sorry, just my opinion for whatever it is worth.
 
LovingOpie said:
He went into a huge bounce and is now now red. Also lowered the dose a second time. We are now at 1.5 and I can only hope that is enough to bring down the high numbers today.
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It looks to me like he lost duration going from 97 to 209 in two hours. Then he bounced so the bounce is going to be higher. Let’s hope he comes back down today. I’d be sure and get a +2 just to see where he’s headed. Also, I would give him a few cycles to clear the bounce and if he isn’t back down in green, I’d increase the dose back to 1.75u.

LovingOpie said:
If there is a forum just for ProZinc then I think it is important that someone be there to help. I think it is wrong to leave people in the dark just because another forum may be more popular. Everyone deserves to be heard or don't have it there at all. Sorry, just my opinion for whatever it is worth
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You don’t have to apologize for your opinion and I understand your frustration. The site is manned by all volunteers and most of the members are using the L insulins and derivatives. It’s been that way since I joined. There did use to be more PZ users but they often end up moving to an L insulin. Typically, those giving advice should have used the insulin so I’m an outlier since I’ve never used PZ. But I’ve used faster acting, non-depot insulins so I feel it gives me a little basis to help out if there are no PZ users around. I know that doesn’t answer your question but it’s the way things have evolved. There are no other sites for PZ users so it’s a better option than getting no support.

Also realize that if your subject title has been the same thing for a long time, it’s not going to draw attention. If members have popped by before and saw Opie was doing well, they won’t realize when you have a scary cycle.

I would have started a new thread and put up a 911 with a title such as “Opie…low numbers, need help please”. You can always take down the 911 and change the title once someone is assisting you. And as Kel suggested, if no one sees you right away, post on Main Health with the same title and 911.

I know you had just bought a vial of PZ last I mentioned this but, if you recall, I said if an insulin is not really working well after six months, it might be time to switch and he’s been on PZ a very long time. It’s worth considering. Yes, there is a new learning curve but when I switched Gracie from Lantus to Levemir, it felt like starting over. The advantage was I already knew how to use a depot insulin but the curves were quite different. If you are open to switching and you are around (seems like you are) to work with the different curve Levemir has, I’d strongly recommend it. It is a great insulin. It onsets later….around +4 and can nadir anywhere from +8 to +12 but it can give some wonderful duration. I loved the later onset and the later nadir allowed me to shoot lower (always above 50 on a human meter).

LovingOpie said:
What do you mean by wash, rinse, repeat?
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It’s what we say here for “keep doing what you are doing” so test, feed appropriately, test. You did a great job of handling his BG and getting him up to safe numbers. We all have those heart pounders. Believe me, Gracie did it to me out of nowhere so many times I’m surprised my heart survived it!
 
Marje and Gracie said:
It looks to me like he lost duration going from 97 to 209 in two hours. Then he bounced so the bounce is going to be higher. Let’s hope he comes back down today. I’d be sure and get a +2 just to see where he’s headed. Also, I would give him a few cycles to clear the bounce and if he isn’t back down in green, I’d increase the dose back to 1.75u.


You don’t have to apologize for your opinion and I understand your frustration. The site is manned by all volunteers and most of the members are using the L insulins and derivatives. It’s been that way since I joined. There did use to be more PZ users but they often end up moving to an L insulin. Typically, those giving advice should have used the insulin so I’m an outlier since I’ve never used PZ. But I’ve used faster acting, non-depot insulins so I feel it gives me a little basis to help out if there are no PZ users around. I know that doesn’t answer your question but it’s the way things have evolved. There are no other sites for PZ users so it’s a better option than getting no support.

Also realize that if your subject title has been the same thing for a long time, it’s not going to draw attention. If members have popped by before and saw Opie was doing well, they won’t realize when you have a scary cycle.

I would have started a new thread and put up a 911 with a title such as “Opie…low numbers, need help please”. You can always take down the 911 and change the title once someone is assisting you. And as Kel suggested, if no one sees you right away, post on Main Health with the same title and 911.

I know you had just bought a vial of PZ last I mentioned this but, if you recall, I said if an insulin is not really working well after six months, it might be time to switch and he’s been on PZ a very long time. It’s worth considering. Yes, there is a new learning curve but when I switched Gracie from Lantus to Levemir, it felt like starting over. The advantage was I already knew how to use a depot insulin but the curves were quite different. If you are open to switching and you are around (seems like you are) to work with the different curve Levemir has, I’d strongly recommend it. It is a great insulin. It onsets later….around +4 and can nadir anywhere from +8 to +12 but it can give some wonderful duration. I loved the later onset and the later nadir allowed me to shoot lower (always above 50 on a human meter).


It’s what we say here for “keep doing what you are doing” so test, feed appropriately, test. You did a great job of handling his BG and getting him up to safe numbers. We all have those heart pounders. Believe me, Gracie did it to me out of nowhere so many times I’m surprised my heart survived it!
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He went red this morning and then went down to blue but +3 and now at +5 he is 89. This is with the lower dose. He lost duration last night because I fed him a lot of HC. Now he wants more of the same and is being very picky and holding out for what he wants. Opie will be Opie. Thanks for your help.
 
I’m so sorry that I haven’t been around to help. And for some reason I am not receiving notifications.

I am happy that you have reduced Opie’s dose. I think that you need to finish up the antibiotics, perhaps, before making decisions about an increase — and of course allow time for any bounce to clear, as Marje suggested already.
 
LovingOpie said:
He went red this morning and then went down to blue but +3 and now at +5 he is 89. This is with the lower dose. He lost duration last night because I fed him a lot of HC. Now he wants more of the same and is being very picky and holding out for what he wants. Opie will be Opie. Thanks for your help.
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I wondered if that was what he’d do because of the duration issue. Good catch!
 
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@LovingOpie

I never used Prozinc but I have helped quite a few members with low numbers on Health. Low numbers are low numbers no matter what the insulin. I had surgery recently and haven't been online much and can't stay on tonight but if you run into difficulty or need some company or a laugh to keep you going, post on the Health Forum. And throw up a 911 if warranted.

Opie has certainly cleared the bounce - and early in the cycle as well. If you can, keep him in the upper greens as long as possible to help him start to realize that green is good.
 
Julie, to me it looks like you really need to be careful about shooting the full dose (whatever the full dose may be at the time, as this has happened on different doses) when Opie is starting in the 80s, 90s, or even when he’s about 100. He keeps going lime when receiving the full dose when his AMPS/PMPS are in these lower numbers. I know that a lot of Lantus/Levemir users would not understand this, but I think you should consider a reduced dose when he’s starting a cycle in these kind of numbers. There will be some trial and error in finding just how much of a reduced dose will keep him out of lime, but it can be done.
 
Regarding tonight, I see you have brought him back up into green. Don’t forget that you need to keep testing for two hours after HC is given to ensure that he doesn’t drop back down. Also, you will probably need to keep up some testing until his typical nadir time- unless he starts a bounce or loses duration or starts to climb high for whatever reason.
 
Suzanne & Darcy said:
Julie, to me it looks like you really need to be careful about shooting the full dose (whatever the full dose may be at the time, as this has happened on different doses) when Opie is starting in the 80s, 90s, or even when he’s about 100. He keeps going lime when receiving the full dose when his AMPS/PMPS are in these lower numbers. I know that a lot of Lantus/Levemir users would not understand this, but I think you should consider a reduced dose when he’s starting a cycle in these kind of numbers. There will be some trial and error in finding just how much of a reduced dose will keep him out of lime, but it can be done.
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From what I was told previously, I was supposed to shoot full dose even when low. I was told to shoot all the way down in numbers. If I shoot a lesser dose then he goes way high and it messes things up. Do you mean that I shouldn't reduce the dose but should be careful when numbers are low at time to shoot?
 
LovingOpie said:
From what I was told previously, I was supposed to shoot full dose even when low. I was told to shoot all the way down in numbers. If I shoot a lesser dose then he goes way high and it messes things up. Do you mean that I shouldn't reduce the dose but should be careful when numbers are low at time to shoot?
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The guidelines are written as “in general”. That means as you gather more data on your own cat, you might find you need to alter them to keep him safe.

Suzanne’s suggestion is one way to handle it but if you don’t want to shoot a temporary reduced dose, what I’d suggest is always testing him at +10, especially when he’s in an obvious bounce clearing cycle, and then feed him some LC food if he’s in the low 100s or green. That “should” bring his PMPS up a little. We don’t know for sure but it’s something to try so you can shoot a bit higher PMPS and paws crossed he won’t drop so low.

You did a great job last night and it was really smart to get that +1.
 
LovingOpie said:
From what I was told previously, I was supposed to shoot full dose even when low. I was told to shoot all the way down in numbers. If I shoot a lesser dose then he goes way high and it messes things up. Do you mean that I shouldn't reduce the dose but should be careful when numbers are low at time to shoot?
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No. I would definitely give him the reduction. Hopefully you did that this morning.
 
Marje and Gracie said:
The guidelines are written as “in general”. That means as you gather more data on your own cat, you might find you need to alter them to keep him safe.

Suzanne’s suggestion is one way to handle it but if you don’t want to shoot a temporary reduced dose, what I’d suggest is always testing him at +10, especially when he’s in an obvious bounce clearing cycle, and then feed him some LC food if he’s in the low 100s or green. That “should” bring his PMPS up a little. We don’t know for sure but it’s something to try so you can shoot a bit higher PMPS and paws crossed he won’t drop so low.

You did a great job last night and it was really smart to get that +1.
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Yep. That is also an excellent suggestion to test toward the end of the cycle and then bring him up with food. There are different ways of working with ProZinc so, as I always say, it can be a lot of trial and error. You really did do great last night to catch that. Hopefully next time you can intervene before he goes lime — I just hate seeing those limes on his spreadsheet, but I am always confident in you to feed and test and bring up his BG with your very great dedication.
 
Suzanne & Darcy said:
Yep. That is also an excellent suggestion to test toward the end of the cycle and then bring him up with food. There are different ways of working with ProZinc so, as I always say, it can be a lot of trial and error. You really did do great last night to catch that. Hopefully next time you can intervene before he goes lime — I just hate seeing those limes on his spreadsheet, but I am always confident in you to feed and test and bring up his BG with your very great dedication.
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Agreed 100% with all of this.

i think it’s time for a new thread :)
 
And to clarify: there is a reduction as Suzanne is talking about before you shoot a dropping green number. If he doesn’t go below 50, then that temporary reduction would be for just that cycle. If, during that cycle he drops below 50, he would get a permanent 0.25u reduction from what his current regular dose was.

When we give a temporary reduction, we also call it a BCS or bull chicken shot, it varies so it isn’t always 0.25u less than the current dose. Sometimes it’s a shave, sometimes it’s a half dose. Depends on the cat and the situation.

That’s why I like testing & feeding at +10 on dropping or lower numbers. The PS comes up & you aren’t shooting so low. But it has to be by +10 so you can know you aren’t shooting a food spike.
 
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