Ok extremely frustrated..

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jackiesmom

Member Since 2012
Ok guys and gals...


This is an extremely loaded post so I apologize.

And I know I don't get on here often..I have severely overbooked my life due to school and such but I think about you guys and your diabetic furbabies all the time.

Jack has been severely touchy the past few days. We could not get a read off of him. So we took him in to get a read on his BG out of a vessel. We don't do this very often.

He was 327 which I don't understand why. He's been a little bit under the weather. He still likes to bully and play with the other cat. The vet didn't seem concerned because he was seven lbs when he was first diagnosed and he is now 13 lbs. She upped his prozinc to 7 in the morning, 5 at night. This still seems to be a little high if you ask me.

Also we have been very good with his food. We give him pate as his wet food. But we can not get him off dry food. He WILL starve literally if we don't give him a handful a day. I don't know how to break him of this habit. And yes I probably baby him. But I'm afraid if he doesn't eat, he will get a low BG.

First could if he was suffering from a minor illness, ( Dad said he was sniffling-he got him on antibiotics, don't worry.) Could that raise his BG?

Also could this be close to time to switch insulin? I don't know how high a dosage a kitty has to be up to before that could be an issue
 
If he has a cold / sniffles, that could make his BG higher. And being diabetic, it is harder to heal / get over the cold, so it may take the antibiotics more time -- usually I have to give antibiotics for about 30 days when my diabetic guy gets an infection. The vet gives 10 days at a time, so that means 3 visits in a month.

It is unusual that A: Jack has gained 6 pounds while diabetic and not very regulated, and B: Jack is up to 12U per day

Granted, he is eating some dry food, but the point at which we start looking at "High Dose" conditions is when they get up to 1U per lb body weight per day.

Have you read up about Acromegaly? This is a condition that causes diabetes as a side effect, and causes weight gain because the Pituitary gland is spitting out excess growth hormone -- causing the cat to be hungry and to grow -- the growth hormone can be used by the body in different ways, so some cats will develop big feet, some will get a big belly (hard, not squishy fat) and some will get big all over.

My cat Norton had acromegaly. When he was eating dry food - he needed 26U per day of insulin. When we switched him to all low carb canned food, his insulin needs dropped down to 15U per day. Acromegaly is not a death sentence, but it does mean that the kitty needs more insulin than a "traditional" diabetic.

I recommend Levemir if you are considering changing insulin. If you order from Canada, the price is usually better than buying local. I order Turkish manufactured insulin from 77CanadaPharmacy.com and you need to allow 2-4 weeks.
 
Well we have a follow up with Jack in a few weeks..

we will ask about it then and continue on the prozinc until then

I will research it thanks


He is almost completely on pate. How do I break him of the dry? Im afraid he will get a low BG because he will not eat if he doesnt get some dry. Have you guys completely cut out dry and just let them deal with it until he comes to those terms where he says Id better eat the wet because thats all I have?

Doc said his skin has the elasticity that it should so hes not dehydrated..Overall he acts well..just dont understand the high BG..going to take some investigating


OH yah..Im kind of naive..When do you know when the insulin needs to be changed so I can keep an eye out? I may sound naive but Jack is fairly new to this whole diabetes thing
 
I had 4 dry food addicts, and took the transition to wet food pretty slowly.

We were originally feeding Science Diet Chicken, and looked for lower carb dry foods while offering canned food too.

We got Wilderness (by Buffalo Blue) that has 18% carbs and first mixed it with the Science Diet - then phased out the Science Diet.

THEN... we got EVO dry, which has 8% carbs ---- mixed it with the Wilderness, and gradually phased out the Wilderness until it was all EVO -- which at 8% carbs is technically "legal" according to FDMB recommendations of staying under 10% carbs.

Eventually, I increased the canned food and decreased the dry food. I took nearly 6 months for all this transitioning through the food chain.

In the past year, I found Stella & Chewy's dehydrated raw food -- this is low carb and my cats love it -- so I use it for treats and mix it into the canned food to "jazz it up"

phoebe
 
Rmemeber 327 at the vet is inflated by stress so it might not be that at home.

Do you have a spreadsheet? I would like to see his preshots and mid cycle tests.. Usually by looking at those we can tell what's going on.. If its being kept high by a high dose condition or dry food, or if he is bouncing? Can you set one up? Here's how.. Would like to see last few weeks data if you have it. http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=18207

I second phoebe on the dry, work on putting him on a low carb dry to start and see what that does, and here are some transitioning tips.. http://www.catinfo.org/docs/TipsForTransitioning1-14-11.pdf

Wendy
 
Yes, I agree with Wendy. We really need to see those numbers, especially the mid-cycle ones to see how low this 7 U is taking him.

Are you testing in the +4 to +6 time frame?

How often do you test at home?

It's very unusual for a cat to gain that much weight if they are still unregulated.

What other clinical signs is Jack still showing?

When do you know when the insulin needs to be changed so I can keep an eye out?
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You know the dose needs to be adjusted by getting those mid-cycle tests.

You know the insulin needs to be changed because the numbers are still unregulated on the current insulin after 30-60 days. I think that is long enough to see if an insulin is helping or not. The insulin needs to at least be bringing the BG's down at mid-cycle.

You may have been holding the doses too long and Jack has become insulin resistant. That is another blood test your vet can do.

As far as the dry food goes, make it a game. Throw the pieces one at a time and make him go get it. The exercise will help with the BG levels too. Cut back on the number of pieces each day. How much would you estimate Jack eats now of the dry food? Which dry food? (brand, exact name)
 
Good idea! I never thought about using exercise to bring down his BGs with the dry food

I don't think we give him the best dry that we can..I really didn't know what to look for but now I know I will buy and phase out. Nice to know others have struggled with the eliminated with dry., That boy will sit the whole day without food...stubborn


What do you mean holding out the dose? You mean the interval that we give it to him? We were told he needs his shots every 12 hours..Is this incorrect?

I am looking for an apartment who takes cats so Jack is with Dad. I know dad could tell you hes been running in the so and sos but he doesnt know how to run a computer for the life of him.

Ill make a spreadsheet and have him fill out and upload it
 
jack has some sniffles going on

but the vet says he skin is great so he's not dehydrated

and he's in overall good health..

My dad is meeting a fellow forum member on here and showing her pics of jack cause she suspects Acromegaly but other than that Im stuck

and the more I think about it, it could be stress. He FLIPS out when he goes to the vet. He hides under my arm and meows the whole way there
 
By holding the dose, I mean keeping the same measurement of insulin for a period of time. Not the interval, the every 12 hours. But keeping the same dose for more than a week. If the cat is not responding to the amount of insulin you are giving, you need to make a change. With the SLGS (Start Low, Go Slow) protocol we have, 1 week is all you would keep the same dose before making a change.

Some lower carb dry food options.

It's not just the quality of the dry food, but the carb content which will make a difference. There are a couple of dry foods that are lower carb than the food you are feeding now or other grain free foods that may appear to be low carb but are not. Hills m/d (15%) . These might help a great deal with the BG control for a diabetic cat.

1. Natura/Innova Evo Cat & Kitten 8% carb but it has been hit by another recall.
2. Young Again Zero Carb, mail order only, expensive, some cats refuse to eat the different sized chunks, a couple of cats have achieved remission on this dry food. Manufacturer claims 0% carb but carb calculators indicate 5%
3. Nature's Variety Raw Instinct chicken 7%
4. Wellness Core Grain-Free Original Formula (tan gold bag)11%
5. Stella and Chewy’s ? % this is actually a freeze dried food but can be given as a meal. Better rehydrated.

Most dry foods are coated with animal digest and that is what cats love the taste of. There is a product called Fortiflora that you can buy to sprinkle on the canned food. Similar to the animal digest coating of the dry foods and cats love the taste.

The water content in the wet food is very important for diabetic cats. When their BG (blood glucose) levels are over renal threshold, 230-280, excess glucose is excreted in the urine. This sugar rich environment makes diabetic cats more prone to UTI's and kidney infection. It's another reason we recommend wet food as much as possible in a diabetic cats diet.

Transitioning a cat from dry to wet takes persistence and hard work and slow and steady. It can be done. Took me 3 weeks and the only reason it was not longer was because after getting down to a proportion of ¼ to dry to ¾ wet, I pulled all the dry food to see if that would work. It did with a little encouragement to eat the wet. I used so many of the transitioning tips by vet Dr Lisa Pierson from this article. http://www.catinfo.org/docs/TipsForTransitioning1-14-11.pdf Some worked , some didn’t.
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For those people home testing, we have a wonderful way to keep track of the test data and shots. There is a google spreadsheet template you can use so you don’t have to start from scratch and figure out what you want it to look like.

We have instructions on how to set one up. how to setup a SS and link to your signatureThe color coding is helpful to see trends over time in how the insulin is working. We even help set them up for people that may be technology challenged. Please ask if you need help.

Having a SS set up and linked to your signature is a great way to get some suggestions from the experienced people on FDMB. You can even share the spreadsheet with your vet, by email. It's totally optional but it can get you some great advice on how to manage your cat with his BG numbers.

What do you think? You can look at Wink's SS in my signature to see what one looks like. I found it invaluable.
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jackiesmom said:
I looked too

could jack have a thyroid problem?
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it seems unlikely from what you have told us so far.

Could you tell me what clinical signs Jack is showing?
Ravenous?
Losing weight? no matter how much he eats? You said earlier that Jack had actually gained back a lot of weight.
Thirsty and drinking 1-2 cups of water a day?
Dry, itchy skin?

These were some of the symptoms my hyperthyroid (too much thyroid hormones)) cat showed. I suppose Jack could be hypothyroid (too little thyroid hormones).

You need a blood panel to tell and you need the extra thyroid tests like free T4 to get a definitive diagnosis in a borderline cat.
 
He's gained weight

Dad said his drinking has stayed about the same..It never really improved after being diagnosed

He does get what I refer to as "DANDRUFF"

I was thinking hypothyroid


He did get a wellness panel in January but he presented with diabetes months after normal BGs

should I test this again?
 
Would you put some information in your signature to give us some basic data on Jack.

Would you please provide us with some more information and put this in your user control panel? It helps us to help you better. This will take about 5 minutes of your time.

Think of this as having some very useful information at our finger tips for those that are replying to your posts. One reason we like to see this information in your signature is because if there is ever an emergency situation like a possible hypoglycemic episode, we don’t have to ask a lot of questions like what meter you are using to give you the best advice. Doing this signature update is totally optional, but it does help us to help you better.

If you are willing to do this, would you please do those updates when you get a chance? Thanks.

Go to the upper left corner of your screen and click on the words, User Control Panel
On the next screen, a row of tabs is presented. Select the Profile tab
On the next screen, there are a number of choices along the left hand side. Select Edit Profile.
Go down to the location field and enter your country, state/province, and city if you are willing to share that info.
Click on submit to save this change.

Still in the User Control Panel, Profile tab, this time select Edit Signature from the left hand list of options.
A free form text box appears.
We like to see information like your name, your cats name age and sex, the diagnosis date for the diabetes like this (DX 4/30/13), what meter you are using for testing, what insulin you are using , what you are feeding (wet or dry, what brands/style of food), any complicating health issues your cat may have, any additional medications your cat is receiving. If you are using a pet specific meter like an Alphatrak or Ipet, please change the font size on that text from Normal to Large (using the drop down arrow list in the middle of the editing commands)

Click on submit to save this information. Now, this will appear at the end of every post you make. You can update the info when you need to.

There is an additional document you can create to provide even more information about your cat. This is also optional to create this google document and link it into your signature. The profile is in addition to the synopsis info in your signature. See this link on the how to's of profile creation. http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=79123
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Add anything else to the google profile document you can think of that might help us figure out what is going on. Thanks.
 
How "fresh" is your Prozinc? Is it near the expiration date? It should be a little cloudy, but not have any solid "floaties" in it. Do you gently roll it to mix it before drawing up the syringe?
 
I am meeting Angee's dad tomorrow to give some Prozinc for Jack.
It was Leopold's, who crossed the bridge about 3 weeks ago. I had met Leo's mom and showed her how to home test. Leo's mom returned the meter and stuff that I had given her, and the pretty new bottle of Prozinc she wanted to give to someone who needed it.

I can take the meter and stuff too and show how to use it.

phoebe
 
Cats who are not regulated, and on a high dose of insulin, PLUS gaining weight should be questioned, and I don't mean that 'the dose was held too long so the cat's become insulin resistant'. The cat's not going to be gaining so much weight, he more than doubled his weight, as in this case.

And the signature is definitely not a priority; the cosmetics can be handled later.


Thanks so much for helping, Phoebe.

Gayle
 
Yah dad knows how to test..

Sometimes though for some reason, Jack will get in this stint where he will not let anyone touch him for like 2-3 days at a time. He kicks with his back claws and bites..

I don't know maybe because he's not feeling well.

And we looked. It was a good thing Phoebe helped us out. We were on the last dosage of prozinc which was dated June 20th. This is the vial I had to scrounge around for money to by. I bought this from a lab about the beginning of June..I don't know why they would send us the vial with the date so close.

Maybe thats the issue?

Let me ask you this..is jack in a healthy weight range?

And I thank phoebe for giving us samples of new food to try. Dad and I talked and decided this would be healthier for all three of the kitties. Toby was neutered about a year ago and gained massive weight..He's like 23lbs so diabetes is a concern for him.

I will gladly update the signature.

I'm calling the vet in the morning and discussing things with her. Shes a very good vet but errs on the side of caution when it comes to testing. We tested Jack several times before he was diagnosed with diabetes. I don't want this to happen again if he has something else going on.
 
Great job with the signature.. Now how about a lower carb dry: Innova Evo Cat & Kitten 8%(currently on recall), Wellness Core Grain-Free Original Formula (tan gold bag)11%, Nature's Variety Raw Instinct chicken 7%, and Young Again zero Carb 0%.

Would you or your dad be able to do the spreadsheet? We could help A LOT more if we saw that, and we can help set it up for you...
 
Thank you for that info in the signature. It's a tiny bit of data that we can see really quickly when responding to your questions. Thanks for doing that.

One change please. Remove your last name. Since this is a public bulletin board, we don't want spammers to get your name, ok?

Either Wendy or I can help you with the SS setup. We have done this for other technology challenged or busy people, to get them started.
 
Let me ask you this..is jack in a healthy weight range?
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How does his current weight look on his frame? Does he look pudgy? My sugarcat, Bob, weighs 14.5 lbs. He's sort of "round" to be honest, but his vet said 14 was OK. He weighed 22 pounds a few years back, but only 12 lbs when he was diagnosed. When you talk to your vet, ask what they think Jack's ideal weight should be.

And yes, the exp. date on the old vial might be part of the problem. If you start a brand new vial, it's a good idea to scale back the dose for a couple of cycles whenever you believe that the old vial might be suspect.
 
You asked about Jack's weight and I forgot to answer that part of your post. You said that Jack is now 13 pounds, up from 7.

Here is a Body Condition Score chart for you to look at. body condition scoring chart Which picture and description looks most like Jack now?

Also, asking your vet for an ideal weight on Jack is an option like Carl said. My vet told me Monet was too heavy at 14 pounds and wanted him down to around 12 pounds. He is a big, long kitty and it took some getting used to the newer, slimmer Monet.

Dad and I talked and decided this would be healthier for all three of the kitties. Toby was neutered about a year ago and gained massive weight..He's like 23lbs so diabetes is a concern for him.
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Oh yes, being overweight is a risk factor for cats developing diabetes just like it is for humans. And male cats are more insulin resistant than female cats according to research. Understanding feline Diabetes by Rand and Marshall. Look on page 6 under the "Causes of Insulin Resistance" paragraph.
 
I gave Angee's dad some Wilderness that I use for treats for my civilians and a baggie of Stella & Chewy's chicken which is OK for diabetics -- at least Tiggy doesn't get high BGs from eating it, and he loves it a lot!
 
Jack looks like in the moderate category

And I love the dry food suggestions Thank you. We are trying Phoebes and if he likes, Ill buy it.

I would love help with the spreadsheet so I can just send it to Dad and he can put in the numbers.

Ill remove the last name
 
The moderate category on that Body Condition Score chart is where you want your cat to be. So now, it's time to keep an eye on his weight and food intake, so he does not gain too much weight.

Glad that Phoebe was able to bring you a few sample foods to try.

Did she think Jack showed signs of Agromegaly?

I can set up the SS for you.
Please check your messages (PM's). Upper left hand corner of the screen, click on "New messages"
 
Angee, SS (spreadsheet) is all set for you to enter your BG test data.

If you want to change your password here, you go to the user control panel, 'Profile' tab, select "edit account settings" from the left hand menu, enter the new password, repeat the new password in the box below that and type in the former password (that string of numbers and letters) in the 'current password' field. Submit to save the change.
 
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