Odd grinding sound when she eats

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Leslie & Alley

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I have to make this quick and will write all details later. My cat Alley just came home from the hospital about 2 1/2 weeks ago. She has been diabetic for 3 yrs now.
ROUND ONE!! In short.. she was in the hospital after we return from Thanksgiving( gone 2 days) to find her very sluggish laying over the water bowl and not very responsive. When we got her to the vet..they said that her values were not compatible with life. She was givin a shot(have to look a records) of something the vet said he has only had to use a hand full of times in his 20 yrs as a vet.. and either they responsed or they don't. She stayed in the hospital that time for 2 days. They said that she was dehydrated, had a bladder infection and her insulin was probably off. She did very well through her stay and then came home!! She was walking all over the house. We had not seen her this active in years!!!! She usually just stayed in the bedroom all the time except for an ocassional walk to the living room.
ROUND TWO!! In short again.. as I am off to the Dr. myself. About 2 1/2 weeks ago I went to find Alley to give her her treament of SubQ fuilds that she had been on since coming from the hospital a month prior. I could not find her anywhere. I went to look in the office and pushed the door back and it was blocked. Then I heard a gasp..I reached down to find Alley completely unconcious and letting put a gasp. I picked her up and thought she was gone but then she gasped again! I screamed at my boyfriend in a total panic and we raced to the car to try to get to the E.R.Vet as it was late!! I was soooo shocked as she was doing better then we had seen her in years!! I was giving her mouth to mouth on way there and still no response. It wasn't 5 mins after getting there that she went into Coronary Arrest and died!! They revived her which is truely AMAZING!! They said that she had gone into a Diabetic Coma and that caused the Coronary Arrest. Her glucose wasn't even registering and her Kidney values were very high. She stayed in the hospital for 2 1/2 days and beyond there belief she just kept improving and came home. I have been back and forth to the vet non-stop since for one thing or another since. I have now started to do home monitoring (which I never knew you could do until now) and MUCH THANKS TO CINDY for arranging a monitor for me!!!!
OK..I really need to wrap this up for now....have to go. She is now off insulin as her numbers were running very low. She wasn't eating but the last few days she is back eating her regular food. We think that as her appetite returns she might need to go back on it, so I am testing her twice a day still to see where she is at. HERE IS MY Q's....when she eats..I am hearing this kind of weird noise. Almost like a grinding sound and its pretty loud. I have never heard this at all before with any of my cats. Does anyone know what that is or means?? Also she is not walking real strong. Her back legs have been weak at times with that drunkin walk but it has went away fast. She has been off insulin for the last week now and her glucose is ranging 130-200. I know that diabeties can cause that drunkin walk when they are not stable but does anything else also effect their legs. I am giving her Clavamox 2x day(for a cold and stuffy nose which is getting better), SubQ's 2x day(for crf which is new), and checking her glucose levels. She was still having a bit of that third eye after bring her home from the hospital but now that we have increased her fluids to 150 2x day that is gone.
I sooo scared after these last 2 incidents and am looking for all the info I can get. The grinding sound has me worried!!
Thanks for any information
 
Could you please double-check and repeat: How much fluids are you giving, and how often? Am I reading that correctly that it's that 150cc twice a day? I'm not an expert on sub-Q fluids, but that seems like an *awful* lot to give! 75cc twice a day (150cc total) would seem much more reasonable to me.
 
Also, please remove the 911 icon - it is meant for emergencies, such as hypos, DKAs etc, as you don't have an emergency - it is best to remove it. As the 911 will scare people into thinking this is an emergency situation and having to read through your post, which is a bit difficult, since you did not separate it into sections, makes it that much harder to determine

1) if you have an emergency

2) the nature of said emergency

Since you posted that you are not around, I'm going to notifying the moderators and ask them to remove it in your absence.
 
Oh sorry..new to this. Thanks for letting me know! She is hypo and woundering if those are signs to watch. She is getting 150ml 2x day.
Again thanks for letting me know.
 
Okay, I have no idea what time it is where you live, or what schedule you have your cat on. But could you please hold off on giving any more subcutaneous fluids this evening until we get someone in here who's familiar with dosing? It's possible that 150cc twice a day is fine, but it's also possible that it's too much. If it *is* too much and you give it, there's just no way to get it back out. So can you hold off on that, please?
 
hi leslie, nice to see you made it here.

let's see, as far as the grinding noise, i have had cats that make a grinding noise when they eat and it was just normal for them. but i want to say i've seen some cases on here when a cat does it and it's because they have a bad tooth or something in their mouth bothering them. i'd wait for more input on this one though before rushing off to the vet. also something to maybe consider because i think Stephanie is quite knowledgable about a wide variety of stuff, maybe if you talk to her again, see if she can listen to the noise and see what she thinks?

also, the hind leg weakness. that could be diabetic neuropathy or it could be tied to the horrendous hypo you had. they can and often do suffer mental damage when they have a hypo that bad so that's a possiblity too.

i'm also remembering another cat just recently that would collapse after sub-q fluids. the bean reduced how much was given each time and the collapsing went away.
 
some info just for others, Leslie is here in southern california with me so we are pacific standard time. Stephanie & Sherman (GA) is near her and helped her with hometesting bg levels
 
Angel also often makes a grinding sound when she eats, which started about 1.5 years ago. I mentioned it once to her former (crappy) vet, who had no insight at all. However, Angel's teeth are truly terrible, so it's quite possible that the grinding is an effort to avoid some kind of tooth pain when she eats. Has your vet commented on the condition of Alley's teeth? If she's in CRF, though, it's probably too dangerous to use anesthesia for a dental cleaning anyway. That's certainly true for Angel.

I agree with others' concerns about the amount of fluids Alley's getting, based on Angel's experiences, but I don't know how big Alley is and that probably makes a difference. Angel went into acute renal failure last year, possibly caused from too-high doses of a steroid. She remarkably recovered from the ARF with 100 cc of sub-Q fluids 3 times a day, for a total of 300 cc per day like you're giving. However, after a month of this, she went into congestive heart failure and got fluids in her lungs. I took her to the ER, where they gave her lasix, and we cut the fluids back to 75 cc twice a day. She's seemed to be fairly stable for the past year, until recently her kidney values have started to creep back up. Angel does have a congenital heart murmur that may have contributed to her problems handling those fluids, plus she weighs less than 6 lbs. Still, I wonder whether Alley may have suffered any heart damage from the hypo-induced arrest that may affect her in some way, as well.

I'm certainly no expert in this, because I only have Angel's case to go on, but I'd be careful and be sure to talk to your vet about these concerns.
 
Welcome back Lesley,

I'm glad to see that you've gotten in person help - and know how to home test.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I can't seem to see which insulin you are using or were using.

It must have been such a scary thing to have your beloved go into a coma and die and be revived and go through more trauma after that.

Since I don't know your back story and what you are doing or aren't doing, would you mind giving us some background, such as:

what kind of food you are feeding
what are the current BG's
aside from the teeth grinding and fluid issue, are there any other issues/concerns?

I don't have knowledge on fluids and what's a correct amount to give, so I can't help on that.

You mentioned weakness and without truly knowing what's going on - result of coma, or if it's neuropathy, it's hard to make suggestions.

If it is neuropathy, the "treatment" is methylcolbalamin B12, this is the one I used for Maui:
http://www.vitacost.com/NSI-B12-Methylc ... 0-Capsules

I emptied 1 capsule once a day into her food.

I wonder if there is a way to determine if it is neuropathy or something else going on. Is your cat now regulated? Cause if she is, then it may not be neuropathy.

Sorry for all the questions, but really trying to understand big picture and provide specific advice.
 
JJ & Gwyn said:
Okay, I have no idea what time it is where you live, or what schedule you have your cat on. But could you please hold off on giving any more subcutaneous fluids this evening until we get someone in here who's familiar with dosing? It's possible that 150cc twice a day is fine, but it's also possible that it's too much. If it *is* too much and you give it, there's just no way to get it back out. So can you hold off on that, please?
Click to expand...

Ok, I am on PST and would normally give her the dose around 9 or 10:00 pm.
 
Re the grinding noise.

Not to borrow trouble for you: my 20-year-old cat Marbles did this and it
turned out to be a tumor in the jaw bone.

That pushes the jaw out of alignment and the teeth don't mesh correctly,
thus the grinding noise.

It could be anything though...bad teeth, etc.

How about a video for your vet .... I would suggest asking the vet about this.


150cc of fluids 2x per day is a lot of flushing, and can wash sugar right out with the urine,
sugar that the insulin needs to work against. Could be too much fluids causing a serious drop in BG.
 
Hi Leslie:

I was looking through posts and saw the one about your kitties grinding noise.

Regis had a grinding noise after the bad vets took out five teeth and irrigated his nasal area. I recorded the noise. The vets didn't believe me until I got Regis to do it there. They had no clue.

When I found Dr. T, he said he had heard noises like that with cats before.

Sending hugs,

Tina
 
JJ & Gwyn said:
Okay, I have no idea what time it is where you live, or what schedule you have your cat on. But could you please hold off on giving any more subcutaneous fluids this evening until we get someone in here who's familiar with dosing? It's possible that 150cc twice a day is fine, but it's also possible that it's too much. If it *is* too much and you give it, there's just no way to get it back out. So can you hold off on that, please?
Click to expand...

Ok, I am on PST and would normally give her the dose around 9 or 10:00 pm.
Hillary & Maui said:
Welcome back Lesley,

I'm glad to see that you've gotten in person help - and know how to home test.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I can't seem to see which insulin you are using or were using.

It must have been such a scary thing to have your beloved go into a coma and die and be revived and go through more trauma after that.

Since I don't know your back story and what you are doing or aren't doing, would you mind giving us some background, such as:

what kind of food you are feeding
what are the current BG's
aside from the teeth grinding and fluid issue, are there any other issues/concerns?

I don't have knowledge on fluids and what's a correct amount to give, so I can't help on that.

You mentioned weakness and without truly knowing what's going on - result of coma, or if it's neuropathy, it's hard to make suggestions.

If it is neuropathy, the "treatment" is methylcolbalamin B12, this is the one I used for Maui:
http://www.vitacost.com/NSI-B12-Methylc ... 0-Capsules

I emptied 1 capsule once a day into her food.

I wonder if there is a way to determine if it is neuropathy or something else going on. Is your cat now regulated? Cause if she is, then it may not be neuropathy.

Sorry for all the questions, but really trying to understand big picture and provide specific advice.
Click to expand...

Hi JJ & Gwyn,
Alley has been diabetic for 3 yrs now. She was always on 1 1/2 - 2 units of Humulin N (novolin n nph generic) and has never had a problem until a few days after Thanksgiving. That is when I returned home after 2 days and found her just laying by the water(which she has done for yrs...) but this time she just was SUPER sluggish and just didn't seem well. That was when she was in the hospital the 1st time. She was dehydrated, her kidney values were up and she had a bladder infection.

They had her on iv antibiotics(baytril) and were hydrating her. They also said that when I brought her in,that her values were not compatible with life. After being there 2 days they said all her values just kept going up and she was eating well, so she got to come home. Her back legs were a little weak but that went away in a couple of days.
At that time I was to give her:
1 unit insulin (Novolin n nph) 1 x day and not until the urine strips showed she needed it.
Baytril injections of 1.2cc 1x day for 3 weeks
SubQ's of 100ml 1-2 x a day

After follow-up visit she then went to 1 unit 2x day.

All was well..she was walking around more than we had seen her do in yrs and yrs.

Then about 2 weeks ago I gave her the insulin shot about 5:30pm. I was on the computer and at about 10:30 I went to look for her to give her the Subq's. That is when I found her unconcious and rushed her to the hospital again. And that is when she then went into Coronary Arrest and died and then they revived her. They said at that point..that her glucose wasn't even registering on the test.

They had her on Oxygen that night and part of the next day. She was also on Baytril again in case there was an under lining infection, fluids and where monitoring her glucose. Her kidney values were alsao very high at this time. After the 2 1/2 days..her values were back in the normal range(except kidneys were still a bit high) and she was eating well!!

I got to bring her home as the vet said that there was really no need to keep her overnight again( cost and she had all her medicine for the day..but still no insulin) but wanted me to bring
her back at 8 am so they could test her glucose and see if she was ready for any insulin by then. She wasn't..glucose was still low. Then I took her back at 6pm so they could test bg again. This time they wanted to keep her since she was going to get insulin and they wanted to make sure that she didn't crash again. They had given her 1 unit at some point during her 2 1/2 days there and they said that she went down to 34 bg. So I was happy to do this.

I picked her up the next morning and after asking a TON of q's found out that I could monitor her at home!! I went straight from this CVS Emergency Vet (only there 24 hrs on the weekend) to her regular CVS vet. They showed me how to test her but wanted $300.00 for the pet meter. I could not do that and thankfully I found this site and Cindy who arranged to get a meter to me!!
I was to give her:
1 unit (Novolin N nph) twice a day..but monitor and adjust.
Baytril injections 1.2cc 1x day.
Subq's 100ml 1-2x day

Her bg was running consistantly on the lower end and I was giving her 1/2 unit 1 or 2xday depending.
In a few days I noticed that Alley was sneezing a bit and had a bit of crust around her nose.
I took her back to the vet and he added:
Clavamox 1 pill 2x day

After a few days she was not eating very much at all and I noticed a little of that third eye again. I was giving her any kind of canned food,treats, broth, baby food. So, it was back to vet....as I am sooo afraid to do anything wrong. I had not given her any insulin for the 2nd day in a row. He said that her bg looked pretty stable from the numbers(need to get those on here..soon)but she was a little dehydrated. Her kidney values were still high but about what they had been before. He said that she might be 1 of those cats that goes in and out of diabeties and to monitor 1-2 a day until she regains her appetite.
I was now to give her:
Clavamox 1cc 2x day for her cold.
Stop the Baytril as both antibiotics might be upsetting her stomach.
Only give Novolin if her values are 300 or higher (as she starts to get wobbly if she is at 70-100)
SubQ's of 150ml 2x day.

Now:
The past week Bg is around 189 except she was 154 yesterday afternoon and 134 this afternoon but goes back up. Other than that she has been 160, 180, 189. On no insulin.
The third eye has gone away since hydrating more.

Problems:
The last week most of the day...Back legs are wobbly. This usually went away.
The past few days..When she eats dry food she is making this grind sound. Almost sounds like bone rubbing together.

I am sooo sorry for how long this is. There has just been a lot going on the last 2 months. I am trying to keep it all straight!!
 
JJ & Gwyn said:
Okay, I have no idea what time it is where you live, or what schedule you have your cat on. But could you please hold off on giving any more subcutaneous fluids this evening until we get someone in here who's familiar with dosing? It's possible that 150cc twice a day is fine, but it's also possible that it's too much. If it *is* too much and you give it, there's just no way to get it back out. So can you hold off on that, please?
Click to expand...

Ok, I am on PST and would normally give her the dose around 9 or 10:00 pm.
Hillary & Maui said:
Welcome back Lesley,

I'm glad to see that you've gotten in person help - and know how to home test.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I can't seem to see which insulin you are using or were using.

It must have been such a scary thing to have your beloved go into a coma and die and be revived and go through more trauma after that.

Since I don't know your back story and what you are doing or aren't doing, would you mind giving us some background, such as:

what kind of food you are feeding
what are the current BG's
aside from the teeth grinding and fluid issue, are there any other issues/concerns?

I don't have knowledge on fluids and what's a correct amount to give, so I can't help on that.

You mentioned weakness and without truly knowing what's going on - result of coma, or if it's neuropathy, it's hard to make suggestions.

If it is neuropathy, the "treatment" is methylcolbalamin B12, this is the one I used for Maui:
http://www.vitacost.com/NSI-B12-Methylc ... 0-Capsules

I emptied 1 capsule once a day into her food.

I wonder if there is a way to determine if it is neuropathy or something else going on. Is your cat now regulated? Cause if she is, then it may not be neuropathy.

Sorry for all the questions, but really trying to understand big picture and provide specific advice.
Click to expand...

Hi JJ & Gwyn,
Alley has been diabetic for 3 yrs now. She was always on 1 1/2 - 2 units of Humulin N (novolin n nph generic) and has never had a problem until a few days after Thanksgiving. That is when I returned home after 2 days and found her just laying by the water(which she has done for yrs...) but this time she just was SUPER sluggish and just didn't seem well. That was when she was in the hospital the 1st time. She was dehydrated, her kidney values were up and she had a bladder infection.

They had her on iv antibiotics(baytril) and were hydrating her. They also said that when I brought her in,that her values were not compatible with life. After being there 2 days they said all her values just kept going up and she was eating well, so she got to come home. Her back legs were a little weak but that went away in a couple of days.
At that time I was to give her:
1 unit insulin (Novolin n nph) 1 x day and not until the urine strips showed she needed it.
Baytril injections of 1.2cc 1x day for 3 weeks
SubQ's of 100ml 1-2 x a day

After follow-up visit she then went to 1 unit 2x day.

All was well..she was walking around more than we had seen her do in yrs and yrs.

Then about 2 weeks ago I gave her the insulin shot about 5:30pm. I was on the computer and at about 10:30 I went to look for her to give her the Subq's. That is when I found her unconcious and rushed her to the hospital again. And that is when she then went into Coronary Arrest and died and then they revived her. They said at that point..that her glucose wasn't even registering on the test.

They had her on Oxygen that night and part of the next day. She was also on Baytril again in case there was an under lining infection, fluids and where monitoring her glucose. Her kidney values were alsao very high at this time. After the 2 1/2 days..her values were back in the normal range(except kidneys were still a bit high) and she was eating well!!

I got to bring her home as the vet said that there was really no need to keep her overnight again( cost and she had all her medicine for the day..but still no insulin) but wanted me to bring
her back at 8 am so they could test her glucose and see if she was ready for any insulin by then. She wasn't..glucose was still low. Then I took her back at 6pm so they could test bg again. This time they wanted to keep her since she was going to get insulin and they wanted to make sure that she didn't crash again. They had given her 1 unit at some point during her 2 1/2 days there and they said that she went down to 34 bg. So I was happy to do this.

I picked her up the next morning and after asking a TON of q's found out that I could monitor her at home!! I went straight from this CVS Emergency Vet (only there 24 hrs on the weekend) to her regular CVS vet. They showed me how to test her but wanted $300.00 for the pet meter. I could not do that and thankfully I found this site and Cindy who arranged to get a meter to me!!
I was to give her:
1 unit (Novolin N nph) twice a day..but monitor and adjust.
Baytril injections 1.2cc 1x day.
Subq's 100ml 1-2x day

Her bg was running consistantly on the lower end and I was giving her 1/2 unit 1 or 2xday depending.
In a few days I noticed that Alley was sneezing a bit and had a bit of crust around her nose.
I took her back to the vet and he added:
Clavamox 1 pill 2x day

After a few days she was not eating very much at all and I noticed a little of that third eye again. I was giving her any kind of canned food,treats, broth, baby food. So, it was back to vet....as I am sooo afraid to do anything wrong. I had not given her any insulin for the 2nd day in a row. He said that her bg looked pretty stable from the numbers(need to get those on here..soon)but she was a little dehydrated. Her kidney values were still high but about what they had been before. He said that she might be 1 of those cats that goes in and out of diabeties and to monitor 1-2 a day until she regains her appetite.
I was now to give her:
Clavamox 1cc 2x day for her cold.
Stop the Baytril as both antibiotics might be upsetting her stomach.
Only give Novolin if her values are 300 or higher (as she starts to get wobbly if she is at 70-100)
SubQ's of 150ml 2x day.

Now:
The past week Bg is around 189 except she was 154 yesterday afternoon and 134 this afternoon but goes back up. Other than that she has been 160, 180, 189. On no insulin.
The third eye has gone away since hydrating more.

Problems:
The last week most of the day...Back legs are wobbly. This usually went away.
The past few days..When she eats dry food she is making this grind sound. Almost sounds like bone rubbing together.

I am sooo sorry for how long this is. There has just been a lot going on the last 2 months. I am trying to keep it all straight!!
Cindy + Mousie said:
some info just for others, Leslie is here in southern california with me so we are pacific standard time. Stephanie & Sherman (GA) is near her and helped her with hometesting bg levels
Click to expand...
 
Cindy + Mousie said:
some info just for others, Leslie is here in southern california with me so we are pacific standard time. Stephanie & Sherman (GA) is near her and helped her with hometesting bg levels
Click to expand...

YES SHE DID!!!! This is the first I have been on here since Stepanie came over. I have been sooo busy with all of this and trying to spend tons of time with Alley!! Stephanie was so nice and a hugh help!! I can't tell you both how much it has meant to me!
I am truly touched and very grateful!!!!! xoxoxoxo
 
Hillary & Maui said:
Welcome back Lesley,

I'm glad to see that you've gotten in person help - and know how to home test.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I can't seem to see which insulin you are using or were using.

It must have been such a scary thing to have your beloved go into a coma and die and be revived and go through more trauma after that.

Since I don't know your back story and what you are doing or aren't doing, would you mind giving us some background, such as:

what kind of food you are feeding
what are the current BG's
aside from the teeth grinding and fluid issue, are there any other issues/concerns?

I don't have knowledge on fluids and what's a correct amount to give, so I can't help on that.

You mentioned weakness and without truly knowing what's going on - result of coma, or if it's neuropathy, it's hard to make suggestions.

If it is neuropathy, the "treatment" is methylcolbalamin B12, this is the one I used for Maui:
http://www.vitacost.com/NSI-B12-Methylc ... 0-Capsules

I emptied 1 capsule once a day into her food.

I wonder if there is a way to determine if it is neuropathy or something else going on. Is your cat now regulated? Cause if she is, then it may not be neuropathy.

Sorry for all the questions, but really trying to understand big picture and provide specific advice.
Click to expand...

Oh no..I think I posted my response to you on someone else's post. My first day at this!! Well, here it is for you. Tyvm for the interest!!

Alley has been diabetic for 3 yrs now. She was always on 1 1/2 - 2 units of Humulin N (novolin n nph generic) and has never had a problem until a few days after Thanksgiving. That is when I returned home after 2 days and found her just laying by the water(which she has done for yrs...) but this time she just was SUPER sluggish and just didn't seem well. That was when she was in the hospital the 1st time. She was dehydrated, her kidney values were up and she had a bladder infection.

They had her on iv antibiotics(baytril) and were hydrating her. They also said that when I brought her in,that her values were not compatible with life. After being there 2 days they said all her values just kept going up and she was eating well, so she got to come home. Her back legs were a little weak but that went away in a couple of days.
At that time I was to give her:
1 unit insulin (Novolin n nph) 1 x day and not until the urine strips showed she needed it.
Baytril injections of 1.2cc 1x day for 3 weeks
SubQ's of 100ml 1-2 x a day

After follow-up visit she then went to 1 unit 2x day.

All was well..she was walking around more than we had seen her do in yrs and yrs.

Then about 2 weeks ago I gave her the insulin shot about 5:30pm. I was on the computer and at about 10:30 I went to look for her to give her the Subq's. That is when I found her unconcious and rushed her to the hospital again. And that is when she then went into Coronary Arrest and died and then they revived her. They said at that point..that her glucose wasn't even registering on the test.

They had her on Oxygen that night and part of the next day. She was also on Baytril again in case there was an under lining infection, fluids and where monitoring her glucose. Her kidney values were alsao very high at this time. After the 2 1/2 days..her values were back in the normal range(except kidneys were still a bit high) and she was eating well!!

I got to bring her home as the vet said that there was really no need to keep her overnight again( cost and she had all her medicine for the day..but still no insulin) but wanted me to bring
her back at 8 am so they could test her glucose and see if she was ready for any insulin by then. She wasn't..glucose was still low. Then I took her back at 6pm so they could test bg again. This time they wanted to keep her since she was going to get insulin and they wanted to make sure that she didn't crash again. They had given her 1 unit at some point during her 2 1/2 days there and they said that she went down to 34 bg. So I was happy to do this.

I picked her up the next morning and after asking a TON of q's found out that I could monitor her at home!! I went straight from this CVS Emergency Vet (only there 24 hrs on the weekend) to her regular CVS vet. They showed me how to test her but wanted $300.00 for the pet meter. I could not do that and thankfully I found this site and Cindy who arranged to get a meter to me!!
I was to give her:
1 unit (Novolin N nph) twice a day..but monitor and adjust.
Baytril injections 1.2cc 1x day.
Subq's 100ml 1-2x day

Her bg was running consistantly on the lower end and I was giving her 1/2 unit 1 or 2xday depending.
In a few days I noticed that Alley was sneezing a bit and had a bit of crust around her nose.
I took her back to the vet and he added:
Clavamox 1 pill 2x day

After a few days she was not eating very much at all and I noticed a little of that third eye again. I was giving her any kind of canned food,treats, broth, baby food. So, it was back to vet....as I am sooo afraid to do anything wrong. I had not given her any insulin for the 2nd day in a row. He said that her bg looked pretty stable from the numbers(need to get those on here..soon)but she was a little dehydrated. Her kidney values were still high but about what they had been before. He said that she might be 1 of those cats that goes in and out of diabeties and to monitor 1-2 a day until she regains her appetite.
I was now to give her:
Clavamox 1cc 2x day for her cold.
Stop the Baytril as both antibiotics might be upsetting her stomach.
Only give Novolin if her values are 300 or higher (as she starts to get wobbly if she is at 70-100)
SubQ's of 150ml 2x day.

Now:
The past week Bg is around 189 except she was 154 yesterday afternoon and 134 this afternoon but goes back up. Other than that she has been 160, 180, 189. On no insulin.
The third eye has gone away since hydrating more.

Problems:
The last week most of the day...Back legs are wobbly. This usually went away.
The past few days..When she eats dry food she is making this grind sound. Almost sounds like bone rubbing together.

I am sooo sorry for how long this is. There has just been a lot going on the last 2 months. I am trying to keep it all straight!!
 
Karen & Smokey(GA) said:
Re the grinding noise.

Not to borrow trouble for you: my 20-year-old cat Marbles did this and it
turned out to be a tumor in the jaw bone.

That pushes the jaw out of alignment and the teeth don't mesh correctly,
thus the grinding noise.

It could be anything though...bad teeth, etc.

How about a video for your vet .... I would suggest asking the vet about this.


150cc of fluids 2x per day is a lot of flushing, and can wash sugar right out with the urine,
sugar that the insulin needs to work against. Could be too much fluids causing a serious drop in BG.
Click to expand...

Thank you very much!! That is really helpful. I had the vet look at her teeth and he said that the gum was a little red above 1 tooth but not bad. Alley is about 13-14lbs and I was told before that she would have to lose some lbs before she could have her teeth worked on and...that was yrs ago. I will ask the vet at her next visit. Of course this started up after her last recheck on fri. Good to know about the fluids. I think I will start doing 100ml in am and then 150ml at night for now and then drop down on both ends. But she needed the fluids as of last fri. I will call vet tomorrow and ask about that. It has been a week now, so maybe we should lower at this point.
 
Hillary & Maui said:
Welcome back Lesley,

I'm glad to see that you've gotten in person help - and know how to home test.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I can't seem to see which insulin you are using or were using.

It must have been such a scary thing to have your beloved go into a coma and die and be revived and go through more trauma after that.

Since I don't know your back story and what you are doing or aren't doing, would you mind giving us some background, such as:

what kind of food you are feeding
what are the current BG's
aside from the teeth grinding and fluid issue, are there any other issues/concerns?

I don't have knowledge on fluids and what's a correct amount to give, so I can't help on that.

You mentioned weakness and without truly knowing what's going on - result of coma, or if it's neuropathy, it's hard to make suggestions.

If it is neuropathy, the "treatment" is methylcolbalamin B12, this is the one I used for Maui:
http://www.vitacost.com/NSI-B12-Methylc ... 0-Capsules

I emptied 1 capsule once a day into her food.

I wonder if there is a way to determine if it is neuropathy or something else going on. Is your cat now regulated? Cause if she is, then it may not be neuropathy.

Sorry for all the questions, but really trying to understand big picture and provide specific advice.
Click to expand...

Oh no I think I posted my response to you on someone else's. First day at this. Well, here it is again for you. Tyvm for you interest!!
Alley has been diabetic for 3 yrs now. She was always on 1 1/2 - 2 units of Humulin N (novolin n nph generic) and has never had a problem until a few days after Thanksgiving. That is when I returned home after 2 days and found her just laying by the water(which she has done for yrs...) but this time she just was SUPER sluggish and just didn't seem well. That was when she was in the hospital the 1st time. She was dehydrated, her kidney values were up and she had a bladder infection.

They had her on iv antibiotics(baytril) and were hydrating her. They also said that when I brought her in,that her values were not compatible with life. After being there 2 days they said all her values just kept going up and she was eating well, so she got to come home. Her back legs were a little weak but that went away in a couple of days.
At that time I was to give her:
1 unit insulin (Novolin n nph) 1 x day and not until the urine strips showed she needed it.
Baytril injections of 1.2cc 1x day for 3 weeks
SubQ's of 100ml 1-2 x a day

After follow-up visit she then went to 1 unit 2x day.

All was well..she was walking around more than we had seen her do in yrs and yrs.

Then about 2 weeks ago I gave her the insulin shot about 5:30pm. I was on the computer and at about 10:30 I went to look for her to give her the Subq's. That is when I found her unconcious and rushed her to the hospital again. And that is when she then went into Coronary Arrest and died and then they revived her. They said at that point..that her glucose wasn't even registering on the test.

They had her on Oxygen that night and part of the next day. She was also on Baytril again in case there was an under lining infection, fluids and where monitoring her glucose. Her kidney values were alsao very high at this time. After the 2 1/2 days..her values were back in the normal range(except kidneys were still a bit high) and she was eating well!!

I got to bring her home as the vet said that there was really no need to keep her overnight again( cost and she had all her medicine for the day..but still no insulin) but wanted me to bring
her back at 8 am so they could test her glucose and see if she was ready for any insulin by then. She wasn't..glucose was still low. Then I took her back at 6pm so they could test bg again. This time they wanted to keep her since she was going to get insulin and they wanted to make sure that she didn't crash again. They had given her 1 unit at some point during her 2 1/2 days there and they said that she went down to 34 bg. So I was happy to do this.

I picked her up the next morning and after asking a TON of q's found out that I could monitor her at home!! I went straight from this CVS Emergency Vet (only there 24 hrs on the weekend) to her regular CVS vet. They showed me how to test her but wanted $300.00 for the pet meter. I could not do that and thankfully I found this site and Cindy who arranged to get a meter to me!!
I was to give her:
1 unit (Novolin N nph) twice a day..but monitor and adjust.
Baytril injections 1.2cc 1x day.
Subq's 100ml 1-2x day

Her bg was running consistantly on the lower end and I was giving her 1/2 unit 1 or 2xday depending.
In a few days I noticed that Alley was sneezing a bit and had a bit of crust around her nose.
I took her back to the vet and he added:
Clavamox 1 pill 2x day

After a few days she was not eating very much at all and I noticed a little of that third eye again. I was giving her any kind of canned food,treats, broth, baby food. So, it was back to vet....as I am sooo afraid to do anything wrong. I had not given her any insulin for the 2nd day in a row. He said that her bg looked pretty stable from the numbers(need to get those on here..soon)but she was a little dehydrated. Her kidney values were still high but about what they had been before. He said that she might be 1 of those cats that goes in and out of diabeties and to monitor 1-2 a day until she regains her appetite.
I was now to give her:
Clavamox 1cc 2x day for her cold.
Stop the Baytril as both antibiotics might be upsetting her stomach.
Only give Novolin if her values are 300 or higher (as she starts to get wobbly if she is at 70-100)
SubQ's of 150ml 2x day.

Now:
The past week Bg is around 189 except she was 154 yesterday afternoon and 134 this afternoon but goes back up. Other than that she has been 160, 180, 189. On no insulin.
The third eye has gone away since hydrating more.

Problems:
The last week most of the day...Back legs are wobbly. This usually went away.
The past few days..When she eats dry food she is making this grind sound. Almost sounds like bone rubbing together.

I am sooo sorry for how long this is. There has just been a lot going on the last 2 months. I am trying to keep it all straight!!
 
Hillary & Maui said:
Welcome back Lesley,

I'm glad to see that you've gotten in person help - and know how to home test.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I can't seem to see which insulin you are using or were using.

It must have been such a scary thing to have your beloved go into a coma and die and be revived and go through more trauma after that.

Since I don't know your back story and what you are doing or aren't doing, would you mind giving us some background, such as:

what kind of food you are feeding
what are the current BG's
aside from the teeth grinding and fluid issue, are there any other issues/concerns?

I don't have knowledge on fluids and what's a correct amount to give, so I can't help on that.

You mentioned weakness and without truly knowing what's going on - result of coma, or if it's neuropathy, it's hard to make suggestions.

If it is neuropathy, the "treatment" is methylcolbalamin B12, this is the one I used for Maui:
http://www.vitacost.com/NSI-B12-Methylc ... 0-Capsules

I emptied 1 capsule once a day into her food.

I wonder if there is a way to determine if it is neuropathy or something else going on. Is your cat now regulated? Cause if she is, then it may not be neuropathy.

Sorry for all the questions, but really trying to understand big picture and provide specific advice.
Click to expand...

Oh no I think I responed to your post on someone else's. First day at this!! Well, here it is again for you. Tyvm for your interest!!
Alley has been diabetic for 3 yrs now. She was always on 1 1/2 - 2 units of Humulin N (novolin n nph generic) and has never had a problem until a few days after Thanksgiving. That is when I returned home after 2 days and found her just laying by the water(which she has done for yrs...) but this time she just was SUPER sluggish and just didn't seem well. That was when she was in the hospital the 1st time. She was dehydrated, her kidney values were up and she had a bladder infection.

They had her on iv antibiotics(baytril) and were hydrating her. They also said that when I brought her in,that her values were not compatible with life. After being there 2 days they said all her values just kept going up and she was eating well, so she got to come home. Her back legs were a little weak but that went away in a couple of days.
At that time I was to give her:
1 unit insulin (Novolin n nph) 1 x day and not until the urine strips showed she needed it.
Baytril injections of 1.2cc 1x day for 3 weeks
SubQ's of 100ml 1-2 x a day

After follow-up visit she then went to 1 unit 2x day.

All was well..she was walking around more than we had seen her do in yrs and yrs.

Then about 2 weeks ago I gave her the insulin shot about 5:30pm. I was on the computer and at about 10:30 I went to look for her to give her the Subq's. That is when I found her unconcious and rushed her to the hospital again. And that is when she then went into Coronary Arrest and died and then they revived her. They said at that point..that her glucose wasn't even registering on the test.

They had her on Oxygen that night and part of the next day. She was also on Baytril again in case there was an under lining infection, fluids and where monitoring her glucose. Her kidney values were alsao very high at this time. After the 2 1/2 days..her values were back in the normal range(except kidneys were still a bit high) and she was eating well!!

I got to bring her home as the vet said that there was really no need to keep her overnight again( cost and she had all her medicine for the day..but still no insulin) but wanted me to bring
her back at 8 am so they could test her glucose and see if she was ready for any insulin by then. She wasn't..glucose was still low. Then I took her back at 6pm so they could test bg again. This time they wanted to keep her since she was going to get insulin and they wanted to make sure that she didn't crash again. They had given her 1 unit at some point during her 2 1/2 days there and they said that she went down to 34 bg. So I was happy to do this.

I picked her up the next morning and after asking a TON of q's found out that I could monitor her at home!! I went straight from this CVS Emergency Vet (only there 24 hrs on the weekend) to her regular CVS vet. They showed me how to test her but wanted $300.00 for the pet meter. I could not do that and thankfully I found this site and Cindy who arranged to get a meter to me!!
I was to give her:
1 unit (Novolin N nph) twice a day..but monitor and adjust.
Baytril injections 1.2cc 1x day.
Subq's 100ml 1-2x day

Her bg was running consistantly on the lower end and I was giving her 1/2 unit 1 or 2xday depending.
In a few days I noticed that Alley was sneezing a bit and had a bit of crust around her nose.
I took her back to the vet and he added:
Clavamox 1 pill 2x day

After a few days she was not eating very much at all and I noticed a little of that third eye again. I was giving her any kind of canned food,treats, broth, baby food. So, it was back to vet....as I am sooo afraid to do anything wrong. I had not given her any insulin for the 2nd day in a row. He said that her bg looked pretty stable from the numbers(need to get those on here..soon)but she was a little dehydrated. Her kidney values were still high but about what they had been before. He said that she might be 1 of those cats that goes in and out of diabeties and to monitor 1-2 a day until she regains her appetite.
I was now to give her:
Clavamox 1cc 2x day for her cold.
Stop the Baytril as both antibiotics might be upsetting her stomach.
Only give Novolin if her values are 300 or higher (as she starts to get wobbly if she is at 70-100)
SubQ's of 150ml 2x day.

Now:
The past week Bg is around 189 except she was 154 yesterday afternoon and 134 this afternoon but goes back up. Other than that she has been 160, 180, 189. On no insulin.
The third eye has gone away since hydrating more.

Problems:
The last week most of the day...Back legs are wobbly. This usually went away.
The past few days..When she eats dry food she is making this grind sound. Almost sounds like bone rubbing together.

I am sooo sorry for how long this is. There has just been a lot going on the last 2 months. I am trying to keep it all straight!!
 
Leslie & Alley said:
JJ & Gwyn said:
Okay, I have no idea what time it is where you live, or what schedule you have your cat on. But could you please hold off on giving any more subcutaneous fluids this evening until we get someone in here who's familiar with dosing? It's possible that 150cc twice a day is fine, but it's also possible that it's too much. If it *is* too much and you give it, there's just no way to get it back out. So can you hold off on that, please?
Click to expand...

Ok, I am on PST and would normally give her the dose around 9 or 10:00 pm.
Hillary & Maui said:
Welcome back Lesley,

I'm glad to see that you've gotten in person help - and know how to home test.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I can't seem to see which insulin you are using or were using.

It must have been such a scary thing to have your beloved go into a coma and die and be revived and go through more trauma after that.

Since I don't know your back story and what you are doing or aren't doing, would you mind giving us some background, such as:

what kind of food you are feeding
what are the current BG's
aside from the teeth grinding and fluid issue, are there any other issues/concerns?

I don't have knowledge on fluids and what's a correct amount to give, so I can't help on that.

You mentioned weakness and without truly knowing what's going on - result of coma, or if it's neuropathy, it's hard to make suggestions.

If it is neuropathy, the "treatment" is methylcolbalamin B12, this is the one I used for Maui:
http://www.vitacost.com/NSI-B12-Methylc ... 0-Capsules

I emptied 1 capsule once a day into her food.

I wonder if there is a way to determine if it is neuropathy or something else going on. Is your cat now regulated? Cause if she is, then it may not be neuropathy.

Sorry for all the questions, but really trying to understand big picture and provide specific advice.
Click to expand...

Hi There,
Alley has been diabetic for 3 yrs now. She was always on 1 1/2 - 2 units of Humulin N (novolin n nph generic) and has never had a problem until a few days after Thanksgiving. That is when I returned home after 2 days and found her just laying by the water(which she has done for yrs...) but this time she just was SUPER sluggish and just didn't seem well. That was when she was in the hospital the 1st time. She was dehydrated, her kidney values were up and she had a bladder infection.

They had her on iv antibiotics(baytril) and were hydrating her. They also said that when I brought her in,that her values were not compatible with life. After being there 2 days they said all her values just kept going up and she was eating well, so she got to come home. Her back legs were a little weak but that went away in a couple of days.
At that time I was to give her:
1 unit insulin (Novolin n nph) 1 x day and not until the urine strips showed she needed it.
Baytril injections of 1.2cc 1x day for 3 weeks
SubQ's of 100ml 1-2 x a day

After follow-up visit she then went to 1 unit 2x day.

All was well..she was walking around more than we had seen her do in yrs and yrs.

Then about 2 weeks ago I gave her the insulin shot about 5:30pm. I was on the computer and at about 10:30 I went to look for her to give her the Subq's. That is when I found her unconcious and rushed her to the hospital again. And that is when she then went into Coronary Arrest and died and then they revived her. They said at that point..that her glucose wasn't even registering on the test.

They had her on Oxygen that night and part of the next day. She was also on Baytril again in case there was an under lining infection, fluids and where monitoring her glucose. Her kidney values were alsao very high at this time. After the 2 1/2 days..her values were back in the normal range(except kidneys were still a bit high) and she was eating well!!

I got to bring her home as the vet said that there was really no need to keep her overnight again( cost and she had all her medicine for the day..but still no insulin) but wanted me to bring
her back at 8 am so they could test her glucose and see if she was ready for any insulin by then. She wasn't..glucose was still low. Then I took her back at 6pm so they could test bg again. This time they wanted to keep her since she was going to get insulin and they wanted to make sure that she didn't crash again. They had given her 1 unit at some point during her 2 1/2 days there and they said that she went down to 34 bg. So I was happy to do this.

I picked her up the next morning and after asking a TON of q's found out that I could monitor her at home!! I went straight from this CVS Emergency Vet (only there 24 hrs on the weekend) to her regular CVS vet. They showed me how to test her but wanted $300.00 for the pet meter. I could not do that and thankfully I found this site and Cindy who arranged to get a meter to me!!
I was to give her:
1 unit (Novolin N nph) twice a day..but monitor and adjust.
Baytril injections 1.2cc 1x day.
Subq's 100ml 1-2x day

Her bg was running consistantly on the lower end and I was giving her 1/2 unit 1 or 2xday depending.
In a few days I noticed that Alley was sneezing a bit and had a bit of crust around her nose.
I took her back to the vet and he added:
Clavamox 1 pill 2x day

After a few days she was not eating very much at all and I noticed a little of that third eye again. I was giving her any kind of canned food,treats, broth, baby food. So, it was back to vet....as I am sooo afraid to do anything wrong. I had not given her any insulin for the 2nd day in a row. He said that her bg looked pretty stable from the numbers(need to get those on here..soon)but she was a little dehydrated. Her kidney values were still high but about what they had been before. He said that she might be 1 of those cats that goes in and out of diabeties and to monitor 1-2 a day until she regains her appetite.
I was now to give her:
Clavamox 1cc 2x day for her cold.
Stop the Baytril as both antibiotics might be upsetting her stomach.
Only give Novolin if her values are 300 or higher (as she starts to get wobbly if she is at 70-100)
SubQ's of 150ml 2x day.

Now:
The past week Bg is around 189 except she was 154 yesterday afternoon and 134 this afternoon but goes back up. Other than that she has been 160, 180, 189. On no insulin.
The third eye has gone away since hydrating more.

Problems:
The last week most of the day...Back legs are wobbly. This usually went away.
The past few days..When she eats dry food she is making this grind sound. Almost sounds like bone rubbing together.

I am sooo sorry for how long this is. There has just been a lot going on the last 2 months. I am trying to keep it all straight!!
Click to expand...
 
> Oh no I think I responed to your post on someone else's. First day at this!!

If you need to edit a post, you can click on the little "Edit" button in the upper right corner next to your post. If you want to delete a duplicate post, you can do so by clicking the little "X" next to the Edit button.


I'm afraid I still can't help on the teeth-grinding issue, but regarding the rest of your post:


> I was now to give her:
> Clavamox 1cc 2x day for her cold.
> Stop the Baytril as both antibiotics might be upsetting her stomach.

You might ask the vet whether a stomach settler like Zantac or Pepcid A/C (*not* Pepcid Complete) might help. You can also ask about an appetite stimulant like cyproheptadine or mirtazapine.


> Only give Novolin if her values are 300 or higher (as she starts to get wobbly if she is at 70-100)

This would be 1 unit of Novolin, yes? Given her recent problems, I would not recommend giving any higher doses at the moment.

Also, you should be aware that, after having a hypo, cats tend to be sensitive to insulin for a few days. If Alley has another hypo, you should be extra careful about monitoring and giving lower doses of insulin in the days after.


Miscellaneous other thoughts:

1. If you scroll to the bottom of the page, there's a little pop-list that lets you navigate to other forums. Go to the pop-list, select Health Links and press Go. On the page that comes up, you'll find two posts. The first post to look at is Melissa's post on How to Treat Hypos. Read it, print it out, and tape it to the side of your fridge. When you suspect a hypo is not the time to discover that your internet connection is down.

When you've done that, read Jojo's post on stocking your hypo toolkit, so that you have the tools easily available if Alley should happen to have another hypo incident.


2. Now scroll down to that pop-list at the bottom of the page again. Under Insulin Support Groups, select Vetsulin / Caninsulin / Humulin N and press Go. That'll take you to the forum where folks who use Humulin N and similar insulins discuss things specific to the use of that insulin. At the top of that page, you'll find a post by SweetGrass labelled Humulin N Primer. Read that through and print it out as well. That post will tell you how to use Humulin N safely: things like pre-shot testing, feeding before giving insulin, that sort of thing. Because Humulin N can have fast, steep drops in some cats, some folks also give their cats a snack an hour or two after the injection, to help soften the drop.


3. Compared to some of the other insulins now in use (I'm thinking of Lantus and Levemir, or even PZI) Humulin N is a harsh insulin: in *general*, it acts quickly, gives sharper drops, and doesn't last a full 12 hours. That said, every cat is different (ECID), and there are some cats who do incredibly well on it. I know that you're not giving Alley insulin regularly at the moment but, the next time you give Alley an injection, if you could get come post-shot readings to gather some more information on how she's doing on Humulin N, that would be great. It might be that she does fine on it, it might be that you need to reduce the dose or give extra food, or it might be time to think about switching to a different insulin. But it's not really possible to judge any of those situation until you have some more data to work from.


So: keep testing Alley's BG levels every time it's time to give her a shot. For the moment, don't give her any insulin unless her BG is over 300. Usually we say not to shoot unless it's over 200, but I'm a little concerned that Alley may be over-sensitive to insulin at the moment and, given Humulin N's nature and possible impact of large amounts of sub-Q fluids, my inclination is to be conservative right now. It *is* possible to give reduced doses of insulin at lower numbers, but you need to have a lot of data on how Alley reacts to insulin before you can make those decisions safely. Since you don't have that information at the moment, it's better to be safe.

Now -- that said, I don't use Humulin N myself. So if someone else who *is* a Humulin N user comes in and offers dosing / no-shoot advice that contradicts mine, please take their opinions over mine.


Anyway, back to gathering some data the next time you actually give Alley some insulin: ideally, after testing before injection time and making sure that it's safe to give insulin, you would also do blood sugar tests two hours after the shot, and at 3, 4, 5, and 6 hours after the shot. When the numbers start to rise, switch to testing every two hours. The numbers that you get are called a curve. You can post them here or on the Humulin N forum and ask for feedback on how other folks think Alley is doing on the insulin. When you post your numbers, we use a format like this:

[date]
AMPS (am= morning Pre-Shot): ###
+2 (two hours after shot): ###
+3: ###
[.....]
PMPS (pm = evening Pre-Shot): ###

Now, that said, what I just listed above is the ideal. So if it turns out that you have to head out to work or the store or whatever, just get whatever readings you can; don't wait until you have a full day free because you want a 'complete' set of data. At this point, any information at all will be helpful and can help establish a pattern.


Also, what size syringe are you using? Is it a 1cc syringe, a 1/2cc syringe, or a 1/3cc syringe? I'm asking because if you're using a 1cc syringe, it's harder to accurately draw up smaller doses of insulin. Don't run out and buy a new set of syringes; we don't even know if you'll need to give a reduced dose. I'm just asking for information's sake.



> 1 unit insulin (Novolin n nph) 1 x day and not until the urine strips showed she needed it.

Just checking: but you are testing blood sugar levels now using a glucometer (where you take little samples of blood from the ear), is that correct? But at some earlier point in time, you were using urine testing.

Are you still continuing to urine test? Because the best and most accurate information we can get on blood sugar levels and how Alley is reacting to insulin is through testing Alley's blood with the glucometer. So you definitely want to continue doing that. But if you have the urine test strips handy, you might want to keep using them just to keep an eye out for ketones. Those are a not-common complication of under-regulated diabetes but, if they occur, they can go bad very quickly. So if you have the strips handy, it might be a good idea to test the urine for ketones in addition to testing the blood for sugar levels. The ketone testing isn't something you'll need to do permanently, just until Alley's diabetes is back under control.


> SubQ's of 150ml 2x day.
> The past week Bg is around 189 except she was 154 yesterday afternoon and
> 134 this afternoon but goes back up. Other than that she has been 160, 180,
> 189. On no insulin.

As at least one of the others has commented, giving sub-Q fluids tends to lower the amount of insulin required. It looks like you're keeping track of BG levels and the times that you tested them. You might start adding information to your BG log on when Alley got fluids and how much she got; then it'll be easier to see any correlation between more fluids and lower BG levels.

Some of the others have said that they've given their cats 300mL of fluids, just like you're giving Alley. (As I said, I'm not an expert on sub-Q fluids.) But I also know that some cats on large amounts of fluids for several weeks eventually started having fluids build up around their heart (known as congestive heart failure), or in their lungs, or elsewhere in their body. (One cat's legs starting giving out on him shortly after fluids but would recover an hour or two later, which is why I was concerned over the amount of fluids you were giving when you said Alley was having walking problems that kept coming and going.)

So: I would double-check with your vet about the amount of fluids that you're currently giving Alley and make sure it's okay. I'd also ask him/her whether and at what point you should start giving less fluids.


And ... I think that's the end of my advice for the moment. Do some reading when you get a chance, and make sure to ask questions about anything that you're not certain of, even if you think it's the most stupid question around. It's much better to be absolutely certain that to have niggling doubts.

-- Jean and her Gwyn
 
You've definitely had a lot to contend with. I'm glad you found this board and hopefully, we'll be able to help you or at least give you questions to ask the vet.

I can't even begin to imagine what you've gone through these past couple months. How truly scary.

Definitely stay here, look around, post your questions/concerns. This group is made up of people all over the world and there is always someone around.
 
Hillary & Maui said:
You've definitely had a lot to contend with. I'm glad you found this board and hopefully, we'll be able to help you or at least give you questions to ask the vet.

I can't even begin to imagine what you've gone through these past couple months. How truly scary.

Definitely stay here, look around, post your questions/concerns. This group is made up of people all over the world and there is always someone around.
Click to expand...

Thank you very much! Yep, I have been so busy I have only been on here twice and for a moment both times. I know I made a mmistake when I was responeding because I didn't see mmy post and kept reposting about 4-5 times. Sorry everyone!! I just need a hr so I can read through everything on the site and know what I am doing.
 
JJ & Gwyn said:
> Oh no I think I responed to your post on someone else's. First day at this!!

If you need to edit a post, you can click on the little "Edit" button in the upper right corner next to your post. If you want to delete a duplicate post, you can do so by clicking the little "X" next to the Edit button.


I'm afraid I still can't help on the teeth-grinding issue, but regarding the rest of your post:


> I was now to give her:
> Clavamox 1cc 2x day for her cold.
> Stop the Baytril as both antibiotics might be upsetting her stomach.

You might ask the vet whether a stomach settler like Zantac or Pepcid A/C (*not* Pepcid Complete) might help. You can also ask about an appetite stimulant like cyproheptadine or mirtazapine.


> Only give Novolin if her values are 300 or higher (as she starts to get wobbly if she is at 70-100)

This would be 1 unit of Novolin, yes? Given her recent problems, I would not recommend giving any higher doses at the moment.

Also, you should be aware that, after having a hypo, cats tend to be sensitive to insulin for a few days. If Alley has another hypo, you should be extra careful about monitoring and giving lower doses of insulin in the days after.


Miscellaneous other thoughts:

1. If you scroll to the bottom of the page, there's a little pop-list that lets you navigate to other forums. Go to the pop-list, select Health Links and press Go. On the page that comes up, you'll find two posts. The first post to look at is Melissa's post on How to Treat Hypos. Read it, print it out, and tape it to the side of your fridge. When you suspect a hypo is not the time to discover that your internet connection is down.

When you've done that, read Jojo's post on stocking your hypo toolkit, so that you have the tools easily available if Alley should happen to have another hypo incident.


2. Now scroll down to that pop-list at the bottom of the page again. Under Insulin Support Groups, select Vetsulin / Caninsulin / Humulin N and press Go. That'll take you to the forum where folks who use Humulin N and similar insulins discuss things specific to the use of that insulin. At the top of that page, you'll find a post by SweetGrass labelled Humulin N Primer. Read that through and print it out as well. That post will tell you how to use Humulin N safely: things like pre-shot testing, feeding before giving insulin, that sort of thing. Because Humulin N can have fast, steep drops in some cats, some folks also give their cats a snack an hour or two after the injection, to help soften the drop.


3. Compared to some of the other insulins now in use (I'm thinking of Lantus and Levemir, or even PZI) Humulin N is a harsh insulin: in *general*, it acts quickly, gives sharper drops, and doesn't last a full 12 hours. That said, every cat is different (ECID), and there are some cats who do incredibly well on it. I know that you're not giving Alley insulin regularly at the moment but, the next time you give Alley an injection, if you could get come post-shot readings to gather some more information on how she's doing on Humulin N, that would be great. It might be that she does fine on it, it might be that you need to reduce the dose or give extra food, or it might be time to think about switching to a different insulin. But it's not really possible to judge any of those situation until you have some more data to work from.


So: keep testing Alley's BG levels every time it's time to give her a shot. For the moment, don't give her any insulin unless her BG is over 300. Usually we say not to shoot unless it's over 200, but I'm a little concerned that Alley may be over-sensitive to insulin at the moment and, given Humulin N's nature and possible impact of large amounts of sub-Q fluids, my inclination is to be conservative right now. It *is* possible to give reduced doses of insulin at lower numbers, but you need to have a lot of data on how Alley reacts to insulin before you can make those decisions safely. Since you don't have that information at the moment, it's better to be safe.

Now -- that said, I don't use Humulin N myself. So if someone else who *is* a Humulin N user comes in and offers dosing / no-shoot advice that contradicts mine, please take their opinions over mine.


Anyway, back to gathering some data the next time you actually give Alley some insulin: ideally, after testing before injection time and making sure that it's safe to give insulin, you would also do blood sugar tests two hours after the shot, and at 3, 4, 5, and 6 hours after the shot. When the numbers start to rise, switch to testing every two hours. The numbers that you get are called a curve. You can post them here or on the Humulin N forum and ask for feedback on how other folks think Alley is doing on the insulin. When you post your numbers, we use a format like this:

[date]
AMPS (am= morning Pre-Shot): ###
+2 (two hours after shot): ###
+3: ###
[.....]
PMPS (pm = evening Pre-Shot): ###

Now, that said, what I just listed above is the ideal. So if it turns out that you have to head out to work or the store or whatever, just get whatever readings you can; don't wait until you have a full day free because you want a 'complete' set of data. At this point, any information at all will be helpful and can help establish a pattern.


Also, what size syringe are you using? Is it a 1cc syringe, a 1/2cc syringe, or a 1/3cc syringe? I'm asking because if you're using a 1cc syringe, it's harder to accurately draw up smaller doses of insulin. Don't run out and buy a new set of syringes; we don't even know if you'll need to give a reduced dose. I'm just asking for information's sake.



> 1 unit insulin (Novolin n nph) 1 x day and not until the urine strips showed she needed it.

Just checking: but you are testing blood sugar levels now using a glucometer (where you take little samples of blood from the ear), is that correct? But at some earlier point in time, you were using urine testing.

Are you still continuing to urine test? Because the best and most accurate information we can get on blood sugar levels and how Alley is reacting to insulin is through testing Alley's blood with the glucometer. So you definitely want to continue doing that. But if you have the urine test strips handy, you might want to keep using them just to keep an eye out for ketones. Those are a not-common complication of under-regulated diabetes but, if they occur, they can go bad very quickly. So if you have the strips handy, it might be a good idea to test the urine for ketones in addition to testing the blood for sugar levels. The ketone testing isn't something you'll need to do permanently, just until Alley's diabetes is back under control.


> SubQ's of 150ml 2x day.
> The past week Bg is around 189 except she was 154 yesterday afternoon and
> 134 this afternoon but goes back up. Other than that she has been 160, 180,
> 189. On no insulin.

As at least one of the others has commented, giving sub-Q fluids tends to lower the amount of insulin required. It looks like you're keeping track of BG levels and the times that you tested them. You might start adding information to your BG log on when Alley got fluids and how much she got; then it'll be easier to see any correlation between more fluids and lower BG levels.

Some of the others have said that they've given their cats 300mL of fluids, just like you're giving Alley. (As I said, I'm not an expert on sub-Q fluids.) But I also know that some cats on large amounts of fluids for several weeks eventually started having fluids build up around their heart (known as congestive heart failure), or in their lungs, or elsewhere in their body. (One cat's legs starting giving out on him shortly after fluids but would recover an hour or two later, which is why I was concerned over the amount of fluids you were giving when you said Alley was having walking problems that kept coming and going.)

So: I would double-check with your vet about the amount of fluids that you're currently giving Alley and make sure it's okay. I'd also ask him/her whether and at what point you should start giving less fluids.


And ... I think that's the end of my advice for the moment. Do some reading when you get a chance, and make sure to ask questions about anything that you're not certain of, even if you think it's the most stupid question around. It's much better to be absolutely certain that to have niggling doubts.

-- Jean and her Gwyn
Click to expand...

Thanks Jean and Gwyn,

I just saw your reply!! I am trying to figure this out. But..I have barely had time to get on here and I need to read everything on how it works. Do I always reply back by pressing the quote button for each response? I didn't even see at first where you had commented back on my post after certain parts.

Anyway.. your point about the fluids and Alley's legs are extremely helpful for me to know.
I will watch her legs after I give her the fluids for a few hours and see what I find. Sooo glad to know that.
Also I will start tracking the time of her fluids and the time I am doing the bg testing. And....yes I have had the lower bg rates about in the afternoon and that is hrs after her 1st round of fluids.

The urine strips....no I have not been using them because this last incident..the vet said that it would not have shown in her urine and only in her blood. He told me that the blood is the best way to test but....he did not tell me that the ketones could still be a factor!! So....thank you for that!! Because it seems like....if there is a possiblity of something happening..it does(or its been going that way)!! And I would rather be safe at all costs. I have the strips right by the litter box. I just have to be there when she uses it..since I have 2 other cats that also use that box. But, I will do my best ;)

Alley has not had any insulin for 1 1/2 weeks now and is still holding the same numbers, although I am only testing her bg about 2x a day. She is eating her regular for the past week now but still not chowing down as much as she use to. I know that several yrs ago she weighed about 16lbs and now she is just over 13lbs. Maybe her weight is also helping w/her diabeties. But I am afraid that she has lost about a pound in the past months or so from her kidney(crf) problem.

Last night I did reduce her fluid level down a bit. She seems to be bright eyed (no third eye) since hydrating more. But I am worried since it has been 10 days..that the fluids might start to build up. So I am giving her the 150ml am and then 100ml pm as of yesterday. I will watch carefully tomorrow and then call her vet on monday.

All of your information was sooo helpful to me!!!!!!!!! I was never a cat person before Alley and now we have 3 (Alley and 2 of her kitten who are 13 yrs old) plus my nieces cat for the last 3 yrs. She is special to me!! She use to play tag w/me yrs ago when she was younger. Ok..I have to tell you this!! You will love it. After many times of playing tag w/her...you know...she would go hide..I would find her and tap her on the head and then I would run off and go hide....she would find me behind a chair or something..jump on top of the chair, swat me on the head and off she would blot to hide. After soo long..I knew all her hiding placing so I thought I would put her to the test ;). I decided to go in the bathroom and get inside the tub,so.... of course she couldn't find me and then let out a small meow(as she would when she couldn't find me and then of course I did the same..to give her a hint) lol!! She comes in the bathroom and is standing there looking around...I pop out of the bathtub, tap her on the head and run off. We go a few more rounds..her.. me.. her..me..this time I have checked all the places she always hide..of course saying..where's Alley, where's Alley. I can't find her anywhere. After a few mins I stop...ummmmm....noooooo....I head towards the bathroom. I just barely look into the bathroom where I can see into the bathroom mirror and there she is in the tub standing up,leaning on the glass tub doors, looking to see if I am coming in. As soon as she see's my shadow..she freezes like a satute just like that lol... then or course I walk in and look at the counters and BOOM..she leaps out of the tub, swats me on the legs and takes off. That was it....that is when I threw my hands up and said.. " there it went..she took my heart"!! And she will always have it....but the more time I can have w/this special kitty of mine the longer my heart smiles just to see her!!!!
Thanks Again!!
 
Karen & Smokey(GA) said:
Re the grinding noise.

Not to borrow trouble for you: my 20-year-old cat Marbles did this and it
turned out to be a tumor in the jaw bone.

That pushes the jaw out of alignment and the teeth don't mesh correctly,
thus the grinding noise.

It could be anything though...bad teeth, etc.

How about a video for your vet .... I would suggest asking the vet about this.


150cc of fluids 2x per day is a lot of flushing, and can wash sugar right out with the urine,
sugar that the insulin needs to work against. Could be too much fluids causing a serious drop in BG.
Click to expand...

Thank you that is very helpful!! I would much rather know things to ask about or what to watch for. I am sooo sorry to hear that your kitty had to go through that. It is so hard to see our furry kids get sick....breaks my heart.
 
Thanks everyone for the all the information, I really appreciate it . I just wanted to apologize for all the errors I made in posting things. I will try to do much better. I think I am getting the hang of it..although I still do have lots to read!!
 
> I just saw your reply!! I am trying to figure this out. [...] Do I always
> reply back by pressing the quote button for each response? I didn't
> even see at first where you had commented back on my post after
> certain parts.

It's mostly a style thing. Some folks will quote back an entire post in their reply. For myself, if I'm responding to a single comment in a post that's close to mine, I'll just reply without quotes. But if I'm replying to multiple comments in a thread, or if I'm responding to specific points in a long post, I'll just cut and paste whatever it is that I'm responding to into my post and put little "greater than" markers at the front of each line (as I've just done here), so that's it's easier for folks to see exactly what I'm responding to. Some folks do something similar, but instead of using "greater than", they might make the comments that they're responding to italics or bold or something. It's just a little way of making it clear what someone else said and what I'm responding to instead of making it sound like I'm either arguing or agreeing with myself.


> Anyway.. your point about the fluids and Alley's legs are extremely helpful for me to
> know. I will watch her legs after I give her the fluids for a few hours and see what
> I find. Sooo glad to know that.

LIke I said, I only heard of that happening once, so I don't know how probably it's occuring here On the other hand, writing notes on when things occur seems to be a fairly easy and non-intrusive way to keep track of things and notice patterns, which is why I'm a big fan of doing it.


> The urine strips....no I have not been using them because this last incident..
> the vet said that it would not have shown in her urine and only in her blood.
> He told me that the blood is the best way to test but....he did not tell me that
> the ketones could still be a factor!!

Blood *is* the best way to test; he's definitely right about that. As for ketone testing -- well, it's not likely, but if you have the supplies already to hand and they expire in a few months anyway, I figure you might as well keep an eye out until things get more stabilized.


> So....thank you for that!! Because it seems like....if there is a possiblity
> of something happening..it does(or its been going that way)!! And I would
> rather be safe at all costs.

If it was a difficult or expensive or intrusive thing to do, I'd balance risks and rewards. But again, this is something you already have the supplies for, it's easy and cheap and gives you advance warning of a problem -- why not?


> I have the strips right by the litter box. I just have to be there when she
> uses it..since I have 2 other cats that also use that box. But, I will do my
> best ;)

That's all you can do. If it helps, some folks use a long-handled ladle to catch urine without disturbing their cat too much, or wrap half of the litterbox in Saran Wrap. It all depends on how disturbed your cat is by folks intruding on her toilette. (My Gwyn never did tolerate that very well.)


> Alley has not had any insulin for 1 1/2 weeks now and is still holding the same
> numbers, although I am only testing her bg about 2x a day. She is eating her
> regular for the past week now but still not chowing down as much as she use
> to.

That's great, that she's not getting insulin and her numbers are stable. Regarding the amount of food being eaten, there are two possibilities.

The first is whether you switched food recently. There are some types of food that are higher quality than others and which cats will need to eat less of. The second is that if Alley's diabetes was uncontrolled for a while, her appetite might well have increased. Unregulated diabetics cannot digest their food properly. Because they're lacking nutrients, their bodies report that they're eating enough, so they tend to eat a lot more than regular cats. Once the diabetes is under control, they can digest their food properly, their bodies stop sending starvation signals, and they go back to eating normal amounts of food.


> I know that several yrs ago she weighed about 16lbs and now she is
> just over 13lbs. Maybe her weight is also helping w/her diabeties.
> But I am afraid that she has lost about a pound in the past months
> or so from her kidney(crf) problem.

Given her recent health issues, I would think all of the ups and downs and lack of appetite to be more responsible (though kidney issues can certainly play a part). When you have some time, you might want to check out Melissa's post on CRF in diabetic cats http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4091. It's god loads of good information on CRF in general, and also information that's specific to CRF in diabetics.


> Last night I did reduce her fluid level down a bit. She seems to be bright
> eyed (no third eye) since hydrating more. But I am worried since it has
> been 10 days..that the fluids might start to build up. So I am giving her
> the 150ml am and then 100ml pm as of yesterday. I will watch carefully
> tomorrow and then call her vet on monday.

Like I said, I'm definitely not a fluids person. I think double-checking with the vet on how much fluids for how long is a good idea.

I love your tag story too! Good luck to both of you!

ETA [editted to add]: I was just reviewing a list of symptoms for cats with kidney problems, and noticed one of the possible symptoms is "Grinding or cracking sound in jaw". Thought I'd mention it in case it's relevant.

-- Jean and her Gwyn
 
Thanks again..I will check out all the crf pages. Glad everyone who read the Tag story enjoyed it. I have lot of stories that are just as special or more. She is a very kitty!! ;)
 
JJ & Gwyn said:
Could you please double-check and repeat: How much fluids are you giving, and how often? Am I reading that correctly that it's that 150cc twice a day? I'm not an expert on sub-Q fluids, but that seems like an *awful* lot to give! 75cc twice a day (150cc total) would seem much more reasonable to me.
Click to expand...

No..it's 150cc 2x a day.
 
Unless a the cat has a heart condition, or is very small, giving 150 ml twice a day is probably OK IF ALL the fluid from the previous administration of fluids is absorbed.

Regarding the teeth grinding, my Bailey does it when occasionally, especially when I am tugging too hard on his ear or cleaning his chin. The vet it could be his teeth but they do not look bad (he does';t have that many left). It does not seem to both him so we are doing nothing for now.
 
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