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Zoey831

Zoey831

Member Since 2013
Hi my cat who will be 11 soon has now been diagnosed with diabetes. The vet said to give her two cc twice a day of insulin. And to come back in 10 days for a blood curve test day. The vet did kot recommend to buy a blood tester for home , they said just to watch that she doesnt get drink or unbalanced. If she does to give her sugar and call them right away Does this sound normal ? Thank you in advance for your help
 
Welcome! It's great you found this board! Your cat is about the same age as my Papaya.

Most vets don't suggest home testing right off the bat, either because they don't realize how important it is or because they think it will scare the pet owner away from treating diabetes. It's a lot cheaper and more informative to do testing at home than a curve at the vet's office, and as you can see from all the people on here who test at home, it's very do-able!

We strongly recommend home testing because it keeps your cat safe and gives you the information you need to make important dosing decisions. There's lots of help with learning to test available here, too, so don't be afraid to ask anything you need to know.

Can you let us know more details? What insulin did your vet prescribe? The favorite around here is Lantus. What is your cat eating? Oh, and what's your name (not sure if Zoey is you or your kitty!) And where do you live - there might be members right in your area who can help if you need some hands-on teaching.
 
Zoey831 said:
...vet said to give her two cc twice a day of insulin. ...
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I hope you meant 2 units, not cc (cubic centimeters). Insulin is measured in units per milliliter (units per cc).
A U-100 insulin has 100 units in 1 cc.
A U-40 insulin has 40 units in 1 cc.

Home testing will keep your cat safe - both too much and too little glucose can hurt your cat.
If you test, you will know when it is safe to give insulin and when it is not. You also will be able to see how well the insulin is working.

A human glucometer is fine. Many folks here use a WalMart ReliOn Confirm or ReliOn Prime, as both the meters and the strips are inexpensive.
 
Hello and welcome to the board.

Yes what your vet is suggesting is pretty much normal from what many vets advise.. but is it ideal for you and your cat? Probably not.

We recommend three things

1. Home testing - with a human meter like the Walmart Relion. Vet curves are expensive and inaccurate due to the cat being stressed! Home testing gives you better data and keeps the cat safe from possible hypos. Waiting till she doesnt drink or gets unbalanced may be too late - and what if she does it at night when you are sleeping? I would buy a kit right now and start testing. We can advise. Then you wont need to go back for the curve!

2. A low carb canned food diet - after you start home testing we advise changing to a low carb canned like Fancy feast classic pates or Friskies pates. What are you feeding now?

3. A good insulin like Lantus, Levemir or prozinc. What insulin did your vet give you?

Wendy
 
Wow I can't thank you all enough for getting back to me so quickly
Yes zoey is my cats name :) they put her on Lantus , 2 units two times a day. She weights 8.5lbs.
I currently have her on fancy feat wet and dry food but they just have me w/d science diet dry
And said to keep her on the wet. I think I'm going to take the advice and go out and get the Walmart tester and strips
Her level at the vet today was 537 , i got the insulin at Walmart pharmacy today and it costed me 160.00 plus 20.00 for the needles
I am in bethlehem pa and my name is jackie any more info would be greatly appreciated. I love my cat and only want her to be comfortable and live a Long life.
 
We generally suggest you ditch the dry. Read Cat Info for more information on feline nutrition, written by veterinarian Dr Lisa Pierson. There's a terrific food chart there that you can print out which has the percent of calories from carbohydrates for the listed foods. You want the percent calories from carbohydrates to be < 10%. The W/D is too high in carbs.

If you decide you want to ditch the dry, drop the insulin dose down to 0.75 to 1.0 units, as that is an estimated dose for her weight.
 
Sounds like a good plan. Heres a shopping list!

1. Meter ie Walmart Relion Confirm or Micro.
2. Matching strips
3. Lancets - little sticks to poke the ear to get blood . new members usually start with a larger gauge lancet such as 28g or 29g until the ear learns to bleed. Optional - lancing tool.
4. Cotton balls to stem the blood
5. Neosporin or Polysporin ointment with pain relief to heal the wound
6. Mini flashlight (optional) - useful to help see the ear veins in dark cats, and to press against
7. Ketone urine test strips ie ketodiastix - Important to check ketones when blood is high
8. Sharps container - to dispose of waste syringes and lancets.
9. Treats for the cat - like freeze dried chicken
10. Karo syrup/corn syrup or honey if you dont have it at home - for hypo emergencies to bring blood sugar up fast
11. A couple of cans of fancy feast gravy lovers or other high carb gravy food- for hypo emergencies to bring blood sugar up fast

And once you start testing you would be best to stop the dry and make sure the fancy feast is the classic pates only ( or other low carb flavours) . that will help bring her blood glucose down and help her towards regulation or remission.

Lantus is a great insulin for cats - plus it lasts up to six months if you keep it in the fridge ( not the door - and dont shake or roll it either), so it will last you quite a while!

Let me know when you get the meter and we can give tips on how to test.

Wendy
 
Zoey831 said:
they put her on Lantus , 2 units two times a day. She weights 8.5lbs.
I currently have her on fancy feat wet and dry food but they just have me w/d science diet dry
And said to keep her on the wet.
Click to expand...

Hi Jackie and Zoey from Bethlehem PA and welcome to the FDMB. You've already received some great advice from folks here.

That starting dose of Lantus is pretty high. Most cats don't need a higher dose to start than 1 unit unless there are extenuating circumstances such as ketones or DKA (diabetic ketoacidosis).

For an 8.5 lb/ 2.2 kilos per pound = 3.86 kilos. (These calculations are based on the lower of ideal weight or current weight if underweight).
0.25U per kilo = 0.965U of Lantus insulin, rounded down to the nearest quarter unit for safety. That gives us a maximum of 0.75U to start.

So your vet started your cat on more than twice as much insulin as the protocol we use. We like to start low, and go slow, gradually increasing the dose in 0.25U increments. It's safer for your cat and avoids bypassing the appropriate dose for you cat, Zoey.

Lantus is cumulative. It has a depot so the shot you gave today, only part of it went to work and the rest into storage in the body for slow, gradual release over time. If this were my cat, I would drop the dose to 0.75U and let the depot fill up over the next 5-7 days and reevaluate.

I would highly recommend getting that meter and the other items from Wendy's shopping list quickly and learn to home test now. We don't want to see your cat hypo on such a high starting dose.

I would not use the Hill's W/d dry or wet. It's what kept Wink in high numbers for months and once I stopped using it, he went into remission. He eats Fancy Feast classic pates and Friskies pate style canned food only and does not get his frequent UTI's anymore either. He has been in OTJ (off-the-juice, insulin being the juice) for four months now and no more UTI's.
 
Ok I ordered the alpha trak2 should have it tomorrow and I only gave her 1 unit this morning after she ate. I'm afraid she willgontoo low and I will not know bc I don't have the tester. I originally thought two units was too high for her also but I did as te vet told me to. Thanks again for all the help. Turns out that we do feed her the fancy feast classics only and they look like patte but don't say it. Chopped grill feast classic, and tender beef feast classic. Are these good for her ?
 
Sounds like a good plan but the AT meter strips are expensive and not much more accurate than human meters I mentioned above.. but if you can afford it then go for it! Otherwise I would pick up the Walmart brands

All Fancy feast classic pates are great - you want any low carb canned under 10% calories from carbs - see column C in here: http://www.catinfo.org/docs/FoodChartPublic9-22-12.pdf

Did you stop feeding the dry?

Wendy
 
The Fancy Feast classics are the pates we mentioned. Just wanted to clarify that.

Wink loves those! His absolute favorite flavor was the Fancy Feast Turkey & Giblet classic. It's the flavor I used to get him off the dry food. He'll also eat the Chicken Feast, LIver & Chicken and the Chopped Grill. He hates fishy flavors, which is fine since you don't want to feed those too many times in a week because of the mercury and other contamination.
 
yes i took her off of all dry food. The vet called and all her labs came back good. Im happy there was no damage from the diabetes. Still waiting for the tester.
 
Zoey831 said:
Ok I ordered the alpha trak2 should have it tomorrow...
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Most of us are on a budget and find the cost of the AlphaTrak test strips prohibitive. The Arkray Glucocard 01 (from ADW) which is the unbranded version of the WalMart ReliOn Confirm has worked well for a lot of us and the test strips are relatively inexpensive.

Zoey831 said:
I only gave her 1 unit this morning after she ate. I'm afraid she will go too low and I will not know because I don't have the tester. I originally thought two units was too high for her also but I did as the vet told me to. Thanks again for all the help.
Click to expand...
When in doubt, conservative choices are safer.

Zoey831 said:
Turns out that we do feed her the fancy feast classics only and they look like patte but don't say it. Chopped grill feast classic, and tender beef feast classic. Are these good for her ?
Click to expand...
The word Classic should be along the lower edge of the label.
 
Ok this might sound like a silly question but since i took her off of the dry food, which is use to have access to all day long, should i feed her 3 cans a day? I use to give her one can a day, but since the dx i started giving her two times, one each right before her shots, I feel like she needs more so yesterday I gave her and extra can right before bed. Will this be bad for her diabetes? Also what treats are safe for her? I havent given her the pounce treats since her dx also thanks in advance
 
What sized cans?
If the 3 oz size cans, yes, I'd probably feed 3 per day for an average sized cat.

How much does she weigh?
Is she underweight or overweight? (Ie need to gain or lose)

I free feed the 14 civvies and put the food twice a day. They nibble all day and everyone is fine.
 
We have a formula to tell you how much to feed but it depends on how well her diabetes is regulated so I would recommned using this as a guideline and weigh her every couple of weeks and adjust food accordingly:

Required calories per day = [13.6 X ideal weight in lbs] + 70

FF pates are about 85 calories a can: http://www.catinfo.org/docs/FoodChartPublic9-22-12.pdf

Also many of us here feed freeze dried chicken or liver as treats as they are low carb and our cats love them but here is a list of ideas: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=9172

Wendy
 
she lost weight and is down to 8.5lbs, and yes its the 3oz cans. the thing is she is always hungry and would prob eat 5 cans if i gave them to her, so thats why i ask.
again i cant thank you guys enough so glad I found this site and didnt hesitate to register. thanks for the chart too.
 
At her current weight, it looks like at least 2.5 cans could be fed. If she needs to gain, rounding p to 3 cans makes sense.

Also, until regulated, she'll be hungry because she can't use everything she eats.
 
I fed her at 10am and gave her 1 unit of insulin after. Then fed her at 4pm an just got the tester so I tested her and she came back at 178. Much lower than 537 ( at vet) but still high. I will retest her again before she eats tonight and gets her second dose. My question is should I bump her up to the two units twice a days as the vet recommended ? Or keep her at the 1 unit twice a day , I lowered it bc I was afraid to give her too much considering I took her off oh her dry food. Thanks !
 
178 at +6 hours after a shot is a bit high, but it's a nice number to have when first starting out. Usually doses are initially held for about a week when starting insulin. How long have you been doing 1u? Since Thursday? I would probably hold this dose a little longer till the depot finishes building and we have some more data. Food changes can also impact BGs up to two weeks (or more) for some kitties, so she might still have farther to come down now the dry is gone.
"General" Guidelines:

Hold the initial starting dose for 5 - 7 days (10 - 14 consecutive cycles) unless the numbers tell you otherwise. Kitties experiencing high flat curves or prone to ketones may want to increase the starting dose after 3 days (6 consecutive cycles).
Click to expand...


In the meantime, we have this handy spreadsheet we use for tracking numbers and patterns for our kitties if you'd like to set one up. It gives us a better view of how Zoey's numbers are flowing. And please let us know if you need any help setting it up, as well. :-D
 
I would hold the dose for now until you get more tests in - just to see where Zoey is. Unless Zoey drops below 50 in which case you will reduce immediately by 0.25units!

Definately set up the spreadsheet as Kay suggested ( we can help if you have issues).

Then you will want to ideally get 4 tests a day:

- before every shot (preshot)- this is mandatory as you dont want to shoot when too low. As a newbie this number is 200. If you see a number under 200 at preshot please dont shoot or feed and come here and ask for advice - and test again in 30 minutes to see how the number is and whether it has gone up. This is why we suggest you dont feed for 2 hours prior to shot time, so the number isnt influenced by food

- mid cycle, 5-7 hours after morning (or evening) shot if your schedule allows. Lantus dosing is based on the "nadir" or low point which occurs in many cats around this time. If the nadir is too low over 3-5 days, you reduce dose. If nadir is too high for 3-5 days, you increase.

- before bed , 2-3 hours after evening shot. This gives you an idea of what Zoeys nighttime plans are. If its lower than your evening pre shot , it can mean an active cycle so you might want to set the alarm for another test around 5 hours!



Wendy
 
I just took it again it it is 339. She is due for both food and insulin. Should I give her just the one unit ?
 
Hi. I have another question, I did a curve test today , I have been testing her every 2 hours , the next time to test will be 930pm and that's also when I feed her and she is due for insulin. Do I test her right before I feed her then give her the insulin then retest in two hours ?
Thanks
 
That works - we always recommend a test 2-3 hours after the evening shot anyway.

However the issues with curves is that they only tell you one day ... and so the cat is high you wont know if its because she isnt getting enough insulin, or she is getting too much and is bouncing. Thats why we recommend daily tests to get better idea of trends and bounces - and keeping track in a spreadsheet. Best to allow the bounce to clear first so you get a good picture of whats going on before making any changes.

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=18207



Wendy
 
Ok so I have been testing everyday but not around the clock usually before each shot.
On 8/6 she was
9:51am 172 fed n shot given( last feed night before at 950pm and shot given)
8:50pm 162 fed n shot given
8/7 today
9:44 am 170 fed n give shot
11:41am 254
1:41 pm 163
3:41 pm 136
5:31pm 139
7:34 pm 126
9:43pm 334 gave shot n fed her
Will test in two hours again
What everyone's opinion
 
Great numbers! She is coming down into nice numbers during the day. I would be very interested to see how low she drops at night, its likely lower again.
 
So these numbers are what the vet is lookin for ? These numbers are good for zoey? I'm not sure what I am suppost to be looking for , of you know what I mean
 
These aren't bad. A normal cat is around 40-130 but many vets like 100-300 since its safer and away from possible hypos.

However if your goal is remission (which is possible for sure and likely in many cats) you want to keep him in a normal range as much as possible.

What's your goal?

Wendy
 
Great! We can totally help with that. A spreadsheet would help immensely.. We can track what he is doing and keep on top of dosing when needed.. Use the link I provided above to set one up.

Let us know if you need help with it.
 
ok ladies, I started my template but i dont know what any of the abrv mean
AMPS?
pmps?

thanks in advance :smile:
 
AMPS = morning pre-shot
PMPS = evening pre-shot

+1 = 1 hour after insulin shot
+2 = 2 hours after insulin shot
etc
 
the link isnt working but i think You need to "share" the sheet so we can access it, and also you didnt copy the entire link and some is missing?

EDITED TO Add - thats it! it works!


Wendy
 
i tried changing it to zoeys spread sheet but couldnt figure that out, just glad i got it up there lol and i think i put it in my signature too

ok so how often should i be testing her daily, i know someone said 4 times but what are the important times. i need to get on a schedule
 
Why is there a blank line between aug 6 and aug 7?

Numbers do look good - few thoughts, first the red last night was probably a bounce. he is likely coming down from that now. He may have gone low on the 6th so mid cycle checks would be good when you get a blue or low yellow preshot number. Remember if you ever see a number under 50 you will want to reduce by 0.25units.

Bounces - what are they and is my cat doing them?
When a cat is first diagnosed, the blood glucose has probably been high for a while. As the insulin starts to take effect and numbers start to come down, the liver has to learn to adjust to the lower numbers. We call this "liver training school". But before it relearns that low numbers are ok, when the BG drops to a number lower than the liver is accustomed, or if BGs drop low, or if the BG drops suddenly, the liver”panics” and reacts by releasing counterregulatory hormones and glucagon. This drives the BG back up. This is what we call a "bounce". Bounces can take up to 72 hours to clear so we are generally careful about increasing doses during the bounce. Once the bounce clears, then you can see the "real" numbers and determine if the dose needs to go up or down.
Click to expand...

Also When you see a low yellow or blue preshot number at night I would aim for another test in 2-3hours to see how low he plans to go. If this is lower than preshot you might want to set the alarm for another test around +6 as it implies an active cycle.

Wendy
 
wow so much to learn, thank you for helping

the blank is bc i set it up wrong. just put in the wrong column
 
Not to worry, we can help!

But in a nutshell we want to know how low he is dropping because its that low number (called a "nadir") you base dose changes on. If the nadir is too high, we raise the dose. If the nadir is below 50, we reduce the dose.

For many cats the nadir is 5-7 hours after the shot. But it varies.

For now keep going the way you are but if you see a low preshot number ( low yellow or blue) then get a test 2-3 hours later to see what his plans are. And then more frequent tests after that if he is dropping. Especially at night as many cats dont eat as much then and so drop lower.

His numbers so far are looking great though! Can you add a row at the top to show when you started giving insulin and how much? Even though you dont have data for testing?

thanks!

Wendy
 
another question, can i send that spreadsheet to the vet? will they be able to open it? Or is it only people with a google account?
 
I believe you do not need a Google Account.

From the File Menu, select Share. Adjust your settings so that anyone with the link may see it. Copy and save the link from the dialog box. Click Done.

E-mail that link to the vet with a copy and paste manuever, it'll be easier than trying to type it in by hand.
 
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