Newly Diagnosed Sugar Cat Owner T1

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marygracemom

marygracemom

Member Since 2013
Hi everyone!
I am so glad to have found this website.
First let me introduce myself. My name is Elizabeth and my precious girl cat (I have 2 younger boys) 13 yrs old, Mary Grace, was displaying symptoms that I know all too well of diabetes (frequent, heavy urination, extreme hunger and thirst). You see I have been a type 1 since my early twenties-and now am 40. I took her too the vet that I usually would take then to, which was Banfield inside of Petsmart. The whole experience was awful, had to wait 2 hours --even though I had an appointment, she was freaking out and we had no where to go except roam around a busy pet store with lots of noise! Finally they did a blood work up and found her bs at 585. The vet brought in a bottle of Prozinc told me to give it to her 2x a day at 2 units. As well as suggested very expensive Royal Canin wet diabetes food. She spent 5 mins with me. All I can say is thank goodness I already understood diabetes or I would have been more overwhelmed than I already was. I kept her on the Prozinc for about a week until I could get in with a recommended vet. She prescribed Lantus 2 units 2x a day and said fancy feast classics were okay.I went back a week later for a blood test, which I thought would be different than a reading from a bg meter. After 30 dollars I was very upset because I could have done that myself.It was 287.The test was done by a tech and my vet was unavailable. When I went home and was ready that night for her next shot, I decided to bump it to 2.5. The amount of food -2 cans fancy feast classic twice a day is a lot of food. She is around 14 lbs. I am at work so I don't have the exact number in front of me :-| I tried to test on her ear but she is very grumpy (always has been) and fights to get away. I have no one to help hold her. So I will keep trying. This past Friday I took her back in for a flucotosmine (?) spelling? test and should have the results today or tomorrow. Okay so my fellow caregivers if anyone near my area (chapel Hill, NC) needs Prozinc, got a whole bottle and does anyone no about the lantus savings program? Apprantley I mst have registerd for myself years ago (I now where an insulin pump) and am having a hard time getting to where I can get a savings card that I have seen mentioned here. Do I register under her name or my name? Diabetes, as you all know is very expensive to manage and I am taking the money that I would have normally spent on my CGM sensors (continuous glucouse monitor) to pay for the Lantus. I have a very stressful job and at the same time and being stalked/harassedby an ex. I want to give Mary grace all my attention but I feel like I am going under.
 
Hello and welcome to the board!
Your new vet sounds pretty good - we also recommend Lantus and fancy feast classic pates and home testing

Testing
You sound like you are having home testing issues - here are some tips https://docs.google.com/document/d/13c_CPZVKz27fD_6aVbsguadJKvjSrSAkD7flgPPhEag/pub.
If you are home testing you dont need to spend $ on a fructosamine test. The fructosamine test is basically an average of her blood sugars over the last few weeks which doesnt tell you much ... she could sit at 225 or bounce from 50 to 400 and it would average the same!
Also you might want to go to walmart and buy a relion confirm or micro. Strips are cheap.

Food
While she is unregulated she will need a lot of food. We have a calculation for how much to feed- Required calories = [13.6 X ideal weight in lbs] + 70 = 260 calories. Fancy feast is 85 calories can - so she isnt getting enough - but it varies with metabolism and activity level so I would weigh her every few weeks and adjust accordingly. If fancy feast classics get expensive , friskies classic pates are good too.

Insulin
Read the "stickys" at the top of this forum -http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewforum.php?f=9
Lantus should last up to 6 months if you keep it in the fridge - dont shake or roll it - and dont keep it in the door. Just keep an eye on her numbers around the 4 month stage. I can attest for 4 months. Many members here get 6.

Wendy
 
Thanks Wendy for the reply.
I am not sure of the new vet, since when I mentioned home testing she looked liked I was crazy! I have plenty of meters being a type 1 for many years, those companies will send out free ones all the time (remember its the strips where they make money) and can share my allotted amount with her. I will test less but she will be tested. I am going to look at the tips on the link you sent for home testing. Thanks again
 
Wendy,
Sorry to seem confused but would you explain the food calculation again? confused_cat
Her current weight but what would her ideal weight be?
I am feeding her (2) 3 oz cans twice a day, so I thought that was a lot.
Thanks!
Elizabeth
 
Hi Elizabeth,

Here is a pretty simple formula:

How much to feed:
20-30 calories per pound of ideal body weight, per day. That will keep a healthy cat at its ideal weight. The range of calories is dependent upon a few factors, one of which would be level of activity.
 
Add a can, maybe as a half can snack 3 hours after insulin.

My civvies seem to run at about 1 oz per pound, divided into 2 meals which they nibble through the day.
 
Required calories = [13.6 X ideal weight in lbs] + 70.

Assuming her ideal weight is 14lbs that means Required calories = [13.6 X 14] + 70. = 260 calories.

Fancy feast is 85 calories can . So she needs 3 cans a day

Wendy

PS good news on the meters - relion has cheap strips though. Watch out for the freestyle lite or meters with butterfly strips though - some members find they dont work well on cats.
 
Here is an update. The vet called and left a message saying her flucosamine test showed she was in poor control and that I needed to increase her Lantus to 3 units 2x a day and feed only 1.5 cans of fancy feast a day. But she also said she has lost a lot of weight (didn't say how much) and that I should test her in a week or bring her in to be tested otherwise she might need to be hospitalized. I have put a call in to her office so I can talk with her.
I tried several times last night after work to test her. Tried with patience, freeze dried treats, love, affection, singing and she finally got the drift that something was going on and went under the bed, not to come out for hours. I did get her ear lanced at one point but she bolted, tore out of the burrito. She is a all black cat so it made it hard to even see the blood. I am at my wits end! I know how bad it feels to have high sugar as well as having low sugar and I feel so bad that Mary Grace is feeling that way! And at the same time, as you all know stress really elevates blood sugars in humans or makes the insulin on board not work as well so I feel bad and my numbers keep hovering around the 200 mark and I wear a pump!!!
Please any suggestions, words of encouragement, prayers....
I was going to use the freestyle meter/strips because that is what I use and I am wondering why they don't work with cats?
Also where should I post that I have a bottle of prozinc that I am happy to donate?
Thanks,
Elizabeth & Mary Grace
 
Hi Elizabeth...

Welcome to FDMB. :smile:

I sent you a private message regarding the ProZinc. It will show on the top of your page as "1 new message"
 
Ok heres my thoughts

1. you are doing a good job on testing - some cats are easier than others. As a black cat you should try a small flashlight to see if you can see the vein. And try the inside of the ear if she is fuzzy. Practice rubbing the ears and giving a treat and walking away. Get her used to that before poking. do it every few hours for a couple of days. Then try pokes. And if you dont get blood after 3 tries,give up and try later. Always give a trea,

2. It totally doesnt make sense to feed her less than she needs if she has lost weight AND is poorly controlled. Ignore the vet, feed her more. and weigh her and adjust accordingly.

3. I would not increase the insulin until you are home testing - because a change of food can bring her blood levels down by as much as 100 points or into remission. You just changed food recently.. and the fructosamine test wont see that since its an average of the prior 2-3 weeks. Plus as I mentioned above, she could well be in a bounce situation and increasing the dose could make it worse.

4. Freestyle meters tend to under estimate blood glucose when its over 200.. by as much as 100 points in cats. Walmart relion confirm and micro are cheap and better

With my experience, if she was my cat i would

1. Work on testing
2. feed more
3. Hold the insulin dose steady for now and watch for hypos. Test her urine for sugar and ketones if you have the keto-diastix.

Wendy
 
Welcome to the FDMB Elizabeth and extra sweet Mary Grace!!

You really have come to the right place. We can not only help you learn to home test, we have all kinds of ways to save money.

First, if there's a WalMart handy, get a Relion meter (about $15)...the Prime has 50 strips for $9 but takes a little larger blood sample. The Confirm or Micro are about $18 for 50 strips, but take a very tiny sample.

Get Mary Grace on wet foods under 10% carbs....Here's Dr Pierson's Food Chart You don't have to spend a lot of money to get low carb food....Friskies Pate's, Fancy Feast Classics and Special Kitty Pate's (all available at WalMart) are low carb and inexpensive.

As for your vet, he/she is just wrong, but we hear that a LOT here...I'm not saying they're a bad vet...Vets just can't stay educated on the latest treatments for every disease for every animal they see. On the other hand, the people here deal with Feline Diabetes day in, day out, some for many years, and everything you're told here has worked SAFELY and EFFECTIVELY for many, many cats.

Lantus IS expensive, but it will also last up to 6 months if it's kept refrigerated (In the refrigerator, NOT the door...too much change in temps in the door)

Here's our "shopping list" to get you started with things you'll need

1. Meter ie Walmart Relion Confirm or Micro or Prime...Prime has the cheapest strips, but take a larger blood sample...the Confirm or Micro strips are a little more, but take a very tiny sample...I started with the Confirm, and once China's ears "learned to bleed", switched to the Prime to save the money on strips
2. Matching strips
3. Lancets - little sticks to poke the ear to get blood . new members usually start with a larger gauge lancet such as 28g or 29g until the ear learns to bleed. Optional - lancing tool.
4. Cotton balls to stem the blood
5. Neosporin or Polysporin ointment with pain relief to heal the wound
6. Mini flashlight (optional) - useful to help see the ear veins in dark cats, and to press against
7. Ketone urine test strips ie ketodiastix - Important to check ketones when blood is high
8. Sharps container - to dispose of waste syringes and lancets.
9. Treats for the cat - like freeze dried chicken
10. Karo syrup/corn syrup or honey if you dont have it at home - for hypo emergencies to bring blood sugar up fast
11. A couple of cans of fancy feast gravy lovers or other high carb gravy food- for hypo emergencies to bring blood sugar up fast

ALSO..if you don't already have syringes that have half unit markings, you should get some. Lantus changes in dose are done in .25 units and you'll need those half unit markings. Get 3/10 cc, half-unit marked, short needle, 30-31 gauge ie Relion, or 3/10cc 30 & 31 gauge short, BD Ultra fine, or 3/10cc short, Terumo Thinpro Insulin Syringe, or 31G 3/10cc, Kroger 0.3cc 8mm, 31 gauge (WalMart sells 100 for about $13...although sometimes you have to tell them they DO have syringes with 1/2 unit markings)

Keep asking questions....we are here to help you!
 
Hi Elizabeth, Welcome!
Everyone here is so very helpful. I have only been on here a short time, and all the the great advice made taking care of my cat so much easier. Bubbles gave me a Very Hard time with testing. I tried the Burrito Wrap once, and it worked. The next time I tried it, she bit me and my husband, the third time I took out the towel (wrap) she hid under the bed...and I gave up. What worked for us, and still does is, I give her a teaspoon FF Classic with 3 tsp of warm water stirred in, in her feeding bowl. Then I get behind her and rub her ear to warm it, then I place the test strip in the monitor. Next I hold a small rolled up piece of paper towel in my left index finger and place it firmly with my index finger on the inner side of her ear as a "brace" against the lancet, which I poke with my right hand on the outer edge of her right ear. She is so busy lapping up the mushy food, she doesn't even move when I poke her. After a week of "fights" with Bubbles, this method was suggested to me ( I'm sorry, I forget who) and it has worked ever since. I hope the testing gets easier for you very soon!
arlene
 
Thanks for the suggestions! I really felt that the vet was wrong about the food. 1 1/5 cans of ff a day is not enough!!
I was able to test her blood sugar successfully last night for the first time...it was 247. But now after reading Wendy's post about the freestyle possibly being off when the sugar is high, I going to Walmart today after work and get a relion meter.
I also loved the tip from Cindy to use a teaspoon of ff and water and test while she is eating. I tried to test this morning before work so I could have a fasting reading but she wasn't having it at all.
She seems to be doing better, small things (which are HUGE) like being able to jump up on my bed, her coat is shiny again, she is not as grumpy with her brothers.
Okay so now I am giving her 3 units 2x day per the vet and feeding her 2.5 cans of ff classics per what the calculations Wendy had given me (is this right?)
It has been a week since I increased the lantus from 2.5 units to 3 and still her reading was high? Maybe just the meter.
I will keep updating as I get better with the testing and can actually have a log of readings.
Thanks everyone, just feeling the support has helped just as much as the advice!
 
I wouldn't worry about a fasting reading. I usually recommend 4 tests a day

- always before the shot - this is mandatory as you don't want to shoot when too low. As a newbie this too low number is 200 but is reduced over time once you have the data to know if its safe. You want to withhold food for 2 hours before the shot so that the pre shot test isn't influenced by food.
- mid cycle - 5-7 hours after morning shot depending on your schedule. This is to see how low she is going. The low point "nadir" is what you base dose changes on since you don't want her dropping too low (under 50).
- before bed (2-3hours after Pm shot) to get an idea of what her overnight plans are. If this number is less than the pre shot test number you may want to set the alarm for a test a few hours later as this implies an active cycle.

Food amount sounds good. Insulin is high for a newbie. The high insulin could be causing a scenario called "bouncing" which means she drops low briefly and then stays high for a few days.. heres an explanation. We can find out if this is the case once you are testing consistently...

Bounces - what are they and is my cat doing them?
When a cat isnt regulated, the blood glucose has probably been high for a while. As the insulin starts to take effect and numbers start to come down, the liver has to learn to adjust to the lower numbers. We call this "liver training school". But before it relearns that low numbers are ok, when the BG drops to a number lower than the liver is accustomed, or if BGs drop low, or if the BG drops suddenly, the liver”panics” and reacts by releasing counterregulatory hormones and glucagon. This drives the BG back up. This is what we call a "bounce". Bounces can take up to 72 hours to clear so we are generally careful about increasing doses during the bounce. Once the bounce clears, then you can see the "real" numbers and determine if the dose needs to go up or down.


Wendy
 
Wendy-
Thanks again for the info. The bounce makes sense. I tried to test her before I fed her and gave her shot but she wasn't having it at all. And it caused a chain reaction with my other 2 cats, where the sensed something was wrong and they all were howling. I feed and give her shots at 6ish am (6-6:15) and then when I get home from work at 5:45-6. She is so hungry that she is screaming to be fed! I tried the fancy feast spoonful mixed with water to occupy her so I could get her blood sugar reading before I fed her and before her shot. As I said, she wasn't having it! I then fed them and gave her shot. So over the next couple of hours I put her back on the counter and rubbed her ears and then put her down and gave her a small treat. Then I spent time playing with all 3 with interactive toys. Then we I saw she was calmer, I put her back on the counter and -it wasn't easy- but got the test done. It was 330. Oh and I did get the meter from Walmart -the Micro version.
Should I back down on the insulin? Or wait until I get some more numbers? 4 times testing her blood sugar a day is going to be hard during the work week. Maybe I will be able to get one in the morning, then a few at night. It seems like it would be easier if I had an extra hand. Us diabetic humans have what is called a continuous glucose monitor which is attached to my stomach and I change the sensor once a week. I have a hand held device that I can just look at that tells me my current number and graphs where it has been and where it is heading (with arrows) Wish this was available for cats!!!
The vet had told me to call with a bs number or to come in and have her tested. I am afraid that if I tell her 330 then she will want to keep increasing her dose. Any advice?
Thanks again!
Elizabeth and Mary Grace
 
Elizabeth, tell your vet you're learning to home test so you can monitor her BG better since you know that the stress of the vet visit will cause higher than normal numbers.

Since you are diabetic and on insulin, your vet should understand that the "rules" are the same for Mary Grace...You always test yourself before you give insulin, correct? It's the same for our kitties.

Tell your vet when you get a week or two's worth of numbers, you'll be happy to share your spreadsheet link with her so she can follow your numbers any time she wants to.

YOU hold the syringe, not your vet, so you are in ultimate control over how much you give her. Personally, I think you're already on a dose that's too high for a newly diagnosed diabetic and think you should drop back to 1 unit and hold it for at least 6 cycles and get as much testing in as you can.

The majority of us here do all our diabetes treatment at home and only use our vets for routine vet care or for diagnosing other problems. There's no reason you can't explain to her that you're taking a more active role in treating her...she is your cat, so you have to do what's best. You can also share the AAHA Guidelines for treating feline diabetes as well as the Tight Regulation Protocol for Lantus by Vet Dr Jackie Rand of University of Queensland.

Good luck to you both and keep asking questions! You can do this!
 
Update on my sweet Mary Grace
I tried again unsuccessfully to test her blood sugar when I got home from work, before food and insulin. And I as a type 1 diabetic know how important it is to know what the number is before giving insulin...but...she will not let me without being fed first. She is so worked up with hunger, she (and my other 2 cats) meet me at the door literally screaming for food. Mary growls as she is eating her food, she is eating it so fast. An hour after I fed her and gave her insulin (because at the same time as a diabetic I know what eating without insulin will do too!!!) she calmed down somewhat enough for me to struggle and get a test done. She was 360. Okay so only an hour after shot/eating would the "bounce" have been in effect? Or is the bounce something that may be occurring during the day while I am at work and the 360 is a result from that? I can check her multiple times over the weekend to see if this may be the case but wondering what any of you think? I am hearing from many that the dose she is on (3 units 2x a day) is very high for a newbie. But if I back off to a smaller dose are the numbers going to confirm that this was correct to change dose or does it take a few days with changes to see the result?
The stress of not being able to check her more frequently is really causing me to get stressed out (and I know she is feeling this too!) And as I have said in earlier posts my personal life is in a tailspin right now with work stress and being harassed by an exboyfriend. So I wonder would the stress be less on her or about the same if I had the vet keep her for a few days to monitor her sugar several times over the day. The expense would be something that I don't really have right now but I want to get her under control ASAP and I am getting frustrated at myself that I cannot control it better--esp because I am a type 1 diabetic! I only want what is best for her.
Thanks
 
Elizabeth, remember, Mary Grace has most likely been diabetic for quite some time before diagnosis, so a few more days or weeks isn't really going to make a big difference. Yes, we want to get her under control as quickly as possible, but this isn't a sprint, it's a marathon.

First, regarding testing. We have lots of things you can try to get her more compliant. Decide on a place you want to be your "testing spot" and put all the supplies there where they are handy for you. As many times a day as you can, take Mary Grace to that spot and just rub her ears (even for a second if that's all she'll put up with) and then give her a yummy treat. Most of us use either freeze dried chicken or just plain old boiled chicken (I bought it on sale, boiled one breast and froze the rest, then cut the breast into bite sized chunks) Eventually, she'll learn to associate that place as where she gets her ears rubbed, but also gets yummy food! She'll also get used to all the "stuff" there that you use for testing. My own cat hated having her ears touched...Now at test time, I call her and she comes running!

In the meantime, when you need to get those pre-shot tests in, go ahead and give her a little chicken or even a spoonful of low carb food to distract her while you get the test in. It's important for her not to eat for 2 hours prior to pre-shot tests (so it's not food influenced) but if the only way you can get the test done is to do it while she's eating, just try to make the "distraction" as low carb as possible and get the test done as quickly as possible. Most of us test/feed/shoot all within about 10 minutes. The bad part about using food to distract for pre-shot tests is that IF she has a low pre-shot number (and you need to stall), it may affect those next tests because they're now "food influenced". (and although it complicates it a little, it's more important to get that number and deal with the complications than it is to shoot when you don't know what the BG is first)

As for the dose...YES, 3 units BID is a VERY high dose, and within the last week we've had someone else who was shooting what they're vet had said (3 units) and her cat's blood glucose went down to 10!! We told her the same thing I'm telling you...It's much better to start at 1 unit BID and go up as needed than it is to deal with the possible heartbreak of a hypo. We have a saying here.."Better too high for a day, than too low for a moment"..Once it's in, you can't take it out again.

OK..going forward, this is what I'd recommend:
1. If you haven't already done it, work on transitioning Mary Grace over to low carb (less than 10%) wet food from the list I posted earlier
2. Work on getting her used to testing by the method above
3. Do what you have to do (for now) to get a pre-shot test in..if at ALL possible, get those pre-shot tests before giving any insulin. IF you get a number under 200, STALL, don't feed (anymore) and retest in 30 minutes. Use that time to post here and ask for help. Eventually, that "no shot" number will go down, but for now, let's keep it at 200 unless you have someone here helping you through it.
4. I would strongly advise that you drop her dose back to 1 unit twice/day. The only thing that may have kept her from having a full blown hypo may have been higher carb food. HOLD that dose for at least 3 days (6 cycles) and then we'll reassess. We increase in .25 unit increments here so we don't blow by the "best" dose. The vast majority of cats here are on less than 2 units twice/day
5. Test, Test, Test!! The bare minimum (if at all possible) is 4 times/day. The 2 pre-shot tests, 1 somewhere between +5 and +8 during the AM cycle, and 1 "before bed" test to get an idea where she might go overnight. Many cats go lower at night so that "before bed" test tells you if you might want to set your alarm to get more tests later

We have a spreadsheet we use here to keep track of your test results. Here's How to set up your spreadsheet. Make sure when you have it set up that you set the "Share" to "anyone with the link" so we can see it too so we can help advise you.

Last for now (I know this is a lot of info), please go ahead and fill out your signature block.
Go to the "User Control Panel" at the top left of the page.
Click on "Profile".(you can fill out any of that information you want to..the one most important is where you are located)
Click on "Edit Signature"...Put your name, your cats name, age/sex, date of diagnoses, type of insulin, type of meter you're using, any other health problems, the link to your spreadsheet,etc. This will make it easier for anyone here to quickly see those things and not have to ask you the same questions over and over again. You can see the information I've added for me and China below.

We understand that the learning curve is fast and steep here, so don't ever be afraid to ask questions, or just tell us to slow down!
 
Feed more - about 50% more than a non-diabetic cat. So if a normal cat needed 3 oz, she'd need 4.5 oz. When she starts leaving food behind, she is full, becoming regulated, or both.

She's screaming because she's HUNGRY ... because the insulin level isn't letting enough of the glucose be used.

To reduce scarf 'n' barf, spread food thinly across a large plate.

To have food go in in mini-meals,

1) Freeze about half the previous shot time and put out the frozen to thaw and be nibbled.
OR
2) Try the Pet Safe 5 auto feeder which has 5 compartments to dole out food across the day.

Also, see my signature link Secondary Monitoring Tools. These are helpful when not able to get much blood testing done. They aren't perfect - ex urine tests only reflect what has happened since the previous void.
 
I already decreased her dose yesterday to 2.5 BID. Should I back it down slowly to 1 BID or go straight to that?
I wasn't able to get any numbers last night after work, with the trick or treaters she and the other cats were hiding upstairs.
I just bought some freeze dried Halo chicken treats off Amazon so that when I am bribing her with treats to get her bs checked that it will be low carb.
I will work on creating her spreadsheet this weekend when I am at home and have more time.
I really appreciate everyone's help. This is harder to deal with than my own type 1 diabetes.
Thanks again
 
Yes, it is, because she can't tell you what's wrong and you can't communicate how hard you are trying to help. :mrgreen:

Is there any chance you could change the shot times and feed her, wait two hours, test and shoot? (food spike should be worn off in two hours). Or can you give her a little snack of regular food, quickly test and shoot, then feed? Can you leave out some snacks of wet low carb during the day so she isn't starving when you walk in the door? Timed feeders are great for this.

It is a matter of getting the technique down that works for the two of you. Sometimes the snack is worth it to her, but if she is unregulated and really starving, it will be hard for her to wait.
 
Hi again Elizabeth!!

In answer to your question, I'd say yes..I'd drop her back to 1 unit twice/day while you're working on getting her used to testing. As I said earlier, the majority of us are on less than 2 units (and quite a lot of us at or under 1), so as long as you're not able to test her before shooting, it would be safer to drop her down (although giving ANY insulin without knowing her pre-shot number can be dangerous)

As you know, insulin is a very powerful hormone and tiny differences in dosage can make big differences in our kitty's blood glucose. Just a .25 increase for China has taken her blood glucose down to 22!

The protocol most of us use with Lantus is the Tight Regulation Protocol This protocol has been published and has been proven to get up to 84% of kitties off of insulin within 6 months of diagnosis

The protocol always starts low and gradually moves up as needed...to keep our kitties safe as well as finding that "perfect" dose that can be given twice/day without sending them below 50. If they do drop below 50, it's a reduction of .25 Each new dose is held for at least 6 cycles unless they drop below 50 again.

Until you start getting tests in (and we DO understand some cats are harder than others) so we can get an idea of what the dose is doing, there's just no way to know what dose is going to be best for Mary Grace...but our number 1 rule is to be safe, and for a new diabetic kitty, anything over 1 unit to start with really isn't safe.
 
I agree with the guys

Feed her more as BJ said - you can try feeding more mini meals through the day instead of big ones - so she is less hungry at meal time. Or as Sue said, feed her a big meal 2 hours before the shot. Then you can feed her more if she is hungry and test/shoot while she eats. Don't worry about her gaining weight right now. its more important to get her stabilized and diabetic cats are starving anyway....

She is still on only fancy feast classics right? No dry or non classics?

Plus reduce the dose to 1 unit for now


Wendy
 
Hey guys! Thanks for the response. I have been feed/shooting at 6am and 6 pm to work with my work schedule. I have to leave by 7:30 and I am not home until after 5:45. She has been on fancy feast classics (only) for a few weeks now. With the treats being temptations but I just ordered freeze dried chicken halo brand from amazon.
When I get home tonight I will feed her then wait 2 hours and only give her 1 unit after a hopefully successful bs gathering. I really wouldn't be able to change her feeding times due to my work schedule, unless I give her the food at 4 or 5am then can test/shoot before I leave for work? But then the 12 hours will be off because I wont be home until around 6.
I am trying so hard but I am frustrated so thank you, thank you all for being there
 
What time do you get up in the morning?

What time do you HAVE to leave to get to work?

What time is it when you walk in the door?

Let's see what we can figure out for you. Are you going to be off for the weekend? I strongly suggest you try the things I suggested earlier and see if you can get a little better with the BG testing. It really is all about routine, and once you get a routine for testing, I'll bet Mary Grace will be easier to deal with. Just always remember to treat..whether it's just for sitting there and letting you touch her ears at first, or actually letting you poke. After 3 tries, reward her anyway and try again later.

Within just the last week or so we had another member who didn't think her kitty would ever put up with being tested..she was shocked that now Monet comes when he's called, jumps up on the bed (her "testing spot") and waits for his treat!

The Temptations are too high carb, so it's good you've got the freeze dried chicken ordered. In the meantime, you might just boil a piece of chicken or even just get some sliced deli chicken (plain, not any of those new flavors)

Don't worry...we have other members who work full time jobs...we'll figure out something that will work for you too!!
 
As far as the automatic feeder, I have two other cats? And I dont want to seperate her from them. None of them would be happy.
To answer the other questions from Wendy: I get up at 6 and have to leave by 7:30 to get to work by 8. I get home 5:30-6:00.
I came home tonight wanting to test before the shot. So I fed them all because she is soo hungry. No shot, kept trying with affections and little bits of tuna but she is flattening her ears right flush to her head. Finally an hour later I was so stressed that she hadn't had her shot (I know what happens to me when I eat and forget to bolus my insulin pump) I couldnt take it anymore. So I got another 1/2 can of ff and thought I could do it while she was eating--no way, flatened her ears, growling -as she was eating-at me. I gave her a shot of 2 units and then freaked out that I shouldnt have done that so I ran to my neighbors and she came and held Mary while I got her bs checked. It was 360 and this was about an hour after eating for the second time. First time was at 6- a whole can of ff -no insulin--
My neighbor said she would come over a few times over the weekend to help, when she is home. She is coming over at 10am then 2pm then sometime before bedtime. Those are the times tomorrow when I know I can get numbers. i am hoping that this will be able to get some feedback on what I am doing is either working or not, with the insulin and the food. Any thoughts?
I really dont feel like she will ever get used to it. She purrs and loves back up to me, but the moment she is around the testing supplies she senses it and she will not coooperate. Also she is urinating a lot less, if it used to be a lake it is now a pond but she is pooping outside the box over the past week and she has never done that. And I keep the boxes very clean changing every time one of the goes.
 
Elizabeth...for the next few days, decide where you want to test (it may be better for you to pick someplace other than where you've been doing it to remove the association she may already have)

Take her there as often as possible, and just rub her ears, pet her, whatever you can do, and have something yummy to reward her with...don't attempt to poke in this "new" place for now

If you have to use your neighbor to get tests this weekend, that's just what you'll have to do for her own safety

I see you went ahead with giving 2 units. We still really think you should drop back to 1 and work your way up...especially if she's being difficult with testing!! When she's too low and you have to poke her every 20 minutes is no time to try to work with a stubborn cat

As for the schedule...could you get up a half hour earlier? If you got up at 5:30, tested/fed/shot, you could even get a +2 before heading out the door. That +2 is a good test to get since it can help tell you where she might be going later on in the cycle.

Then when you get home (5:30 or 6) you could repeat it and be pretty close to the 12 hours between shots.

There's no reason you can't leave food out during the day either for all your cats. A lot of us make catsicles by taking our wet food, adding some water and putting it into ice cube trays and freezing them. Once frozen, you pop them into a baggie and keep them frozen. Cats usually won't eat what they can't smell, so when you first put them out (frozen), they won't have much of a smell, but as they thaw, the smell comes back, so it's another way you can leave food out and they can eat it later in the day.

Remember when trying to test that cats feed off of our emotions..If you're coming to it stressed and worried, Mary Grace is going to know it. Try to relax..deep breathing or even something like singing/humming can help
 
I will try the idea about freezing the food as popcicles. Great idea. But more importanly I am going to use my bed, a place she already loves as the new testing spot--Chris you are so right, have to get a better assocation going on and I know that she feels my stress and frustration. I try and sing and talk but I know the fear, frustration and plain ol stressed out she can still sense from me. I will try to relax. Its just as soon as I get up and as soon as I get home sheis screaming for food, and actually so are my skives. They start trying to get me up at 4 and 5 so I am okay with getting up at 5:30 and being able to test before I leave for work. I will do whatever it takes.
Do you think with the hold down- forcing of the bs this weekend with help from my neighbor is going to set back the trust/accepting of the new testing spot?
And I gave her 2 units instead of the 1 because of what her bs was. I guess I am deep down afraid that if I just give her 1, she will get sicker and the symptoms that have gone away will return. Symptoms being heavy urination, excessive drinking, dry skin.
 
Remember, she was diabetic for some time before you finally started to notice the signs and got the diagnosis. Since you've already started her on Lantus, you would only stay at the 1 unit dose for 3 days before we'd make any adjustments based on the numbers you get during those 3 days. We do adjustments in .25 increments for good reasons! Safety being number 1, and because the best dose might very well be a lot less than she's getting. One that keeps her in pancreas healing numbers without risk.

The other thing we haven't talked about is that cats that are on large doses too soon can become "immune" to it and you end up having to give bigger and bigger doses.

It's a lot harder on her if she goes into a full hypo than it is if she's too high for a few more days here and there. If she's on too high a dose, she could be going too low during the cycle too and then when you test at pre-shot times, she's bouncing. There's just no way to know for sure if you don't start low and go up from there.

For now, I'd build her trust in your "new spot" and do the testing you HAVE to do someplace else so she doesn't associate the "new" place with the equipment and struggle
 
Update her getting her blood sugar numbers. Was completly unsuccesful by myself at 6am. Went ahead and fed/shot. Fed 1 can ff and 2 units Lantus.
Then my neighbor came to help, as I had said in my earlier post.
Here are her numbers:
10:00am 274
2:30 pm 219
5:30 pm 433...was surprised and rechecked and it was 428.
6pm fed 1 can ff/shot 2 units
I feel this looks like not enough insulin and not the bounce because for the 3 hours she was with me and I didnt see any signs of hypo and if that were the case that was too quick to go low and go back so high???
We will continue this same time for testing tomorrow, I am lucky that my neighbor is willing to help. With her also coming over at 10pm tonight for another.
In the meantime I have tried to associate good things with the testing supplie, new area, etc by just rubbing her ears and giving small pieces of chicked I boiled.
Update: Thank goodness, she let me test her without much fuss.... at 6:50 it was 388
 
Good job on the testing !!!

First - cats can bounce off of any number thats lower than they are used to. This doesn't mean it has to be a hypo - just a number the liver hasn't seen for a while - even normal cat numbers. So she could well be bouncing off a low number yesterday - or today between 2.30 and 5.30pm. Could have sneaked under 200 in that time and the liver panicked as it hasn't seen anything that low for a while. Even though normal cats are 50-130. We have to retrain the liver to get used to lower normal cat numbers again.

Second - just because you don't see hypo symptoms, doesn't mean a hypo isn't occurring. My Tiggy has been to 29 with no visible symptoms. My Bailey went to 16 and was in a coma. They can drop from being normal to having seizures or coma really fast...

I think you need more data before changing dose. I would like to see if this is a bounce and what she does when it clears. We don't want to increase dose and force her too low.

And the spreadsheet would help a lot....

Wendy
 
Good to see you're making progress with the testing..and what a wonderful neighbor you have too!!

Lantus is a depot insulin, which means the first week you're giving it, it's "filling the depot". Part of the shot works and the rest goes into the depot to be slowly released. Since you've been on it= longer than that, I think it may be fine to continue with the 2 units, but you'll need to hold that same dose for at least 3 days (6 cycles) before we make any changes. (unless she drops below 50) There's just not going to be any way to know if the highs are due to a bounce off of some low until we get more data. Bounces happen when the liver panics because the blood glucose is lower than it's used to. It doesn't take a low number to trigger a bounce. Bounces can take up to 72 hours to clear. As you get her better regulated, she'll eventually bounce less, and won't take as long to clear them.

When you have time, go ahead and get that spreadsheet set up. It's already "done"...all you really have to do is sign into Google, get the spreadsheet and start putting numbers in. You don't have to "build it" yourself. That will make it much easier for you (and us) to start to see the patterns each dose does for her.

Remember to try to test/feed/shoot all at the same time (within 10-15 minutes) so the pre-shot tests aren't influenced by food.

I'd like to invite you over to the Lantus Tight Regulation Board. Most of us there use Lantus, so it's a good place to continue to post and get the most help. Each day, you start a new post (we call them condo's) with the date, cat's name and the AMPS number in the subject line. In the body of the post you'd give the WCR (Whole Cat Report)..How is Mary Grace feeling? How's her appetite? How about the 5 P's? (purring, preening, playing, peeing, pooping) as well as anything else you'd like to share. If you have a question that day, use the ? icon directly above the subject line so when we're scanning the forums, we can easily see your condo includes a question. As the day goes on, as you get new tests, you edit the subject line and add those numbers, so yours for today might look like this
11/2 MaryGrace AMPS ??, +4 274, +8.5 219,PMPS 433 (Since you didn't get a test immediately before shooting, the 433 would be your PMPS number)

It's not mandatory that you post in the Lantus Forum..You can continue to post here in Health if you like, but over in the Lantus forum you'll get the most experienced eyes helping out and advising you.

Congrats on getting more cooperation with the testing too!
 
Thanks, I feel better getting all these numbers. I don't feel as frustrated. My neighbor is wonderful to help!
I got the spreadsheet set up too!
The info was very helpful about the liver rejecting even ok numbers, makes sense. I am hoping that with tomorrows numbers will include amps!! She is so focused on food that makes it harder to get the test. Should I feed her a 1/4 can as a snack so maybe the morning attempt might be easier? My others seem just as hungry, I have taken them all off free eating dry (evo) and they are all eating the ff classics but this has been for a month now. Should they all be this hungry from the change? Maybe I ought to test the others even though they show no signs?
As I look at my own continuous glucose monitor I only wish there were such a device for cats. Just with a glance I know my blood sugar is 134, no finger sticks, no effort, just looking at a device smaller than an ipod that receives signals from a transmittor and sensor worn on my belly.
 
Good job with the spreadsheet!

You can leave food down for them, or feed them several times a day. The only time we need the tests to be done without food is the Pre-shot numbers..the rest of the cycle can have food

Have you tried testing her while giving her pieces of chicken or freeze dried chicken? If she's that food motivated, it seems like while she's busy munching on chicken, she may not even notice you testing her...and if it's pure chicken(freeze dried or real) if you DO need to stall, it shouldn't cause too much trouble. With a little more time and practice, you'll probably get to the point where you can test her, feed and shoot all about the same time. When we first started, I'd give China a couple bites of boiled chicken to munch on while I was testing. I put her on a counter (after picking her up and rubbing the ear I plan on testing to warm it up) with her head pointed toward the wall (where there's no "escape") and give her a couple small pieces of chicken, grab her ear, poke and test.

Are you warming her ear before testing? It can make a world of difference! What worked best for us was using a small pill bottle full of warm water, but many people use a baby sock with a little rice or oatmeal in it that they've microwaved for 15-20 seconds. I liked the pill bottle because it gave me something hard to poke against.

Also, if you haven't already done it, make sure you're using 26-28 gauge lancets. New ears do better with the bigger gauges until they "learn to bleed".

As far as I know, there's no continuous glucose monitor for cats, but yeah, wouldn't that be great?? Make it a lot easier on everyone!
 
When you have her on the counter facing the wall are you holding her body? Mary Grace is very very food motivated but almost too much in that she wants to devour the ff or chicken treat that she is like attacking it! Growling as she eats. I have mixed in warm water with the ff to spread it out over a bigger plate. As for the warming the ear, I rub it with my fingers but the process has been just trying to get it before she starts freaking and I haven't had trouble getting the blood just sometimes seeing it (on either side of the ear) because she is all black so that really hasn't been much of an effort in that part. I will check and see what the gauge the lancets are.
I am concerned that with my work schedule I wont be able to get enough data during the day. So this is how I can do it...
5:30 test/feed/shoot then test right before I leave for work at 7:30 than 5:30 pm same test/feed shot and then whenever is needed at night. Is this going to be enough. I can sometimes come home from work at lunch but not more than 2x a week. What do you think?
 
No, I'm not holding her at all. Since she doesn't have an escape route to the front, my body is "trapping" her on the side, and if I need to, I can use my right elbow behind her to keep her from "backing out"

That schedule sounds good to me! You can do more testing on weekends, plus the 2 times/week at lunch and during the evenings. That's pretty good
 

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