? Newly diagnosed - First low numbers ?

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Champoux

Champoux

Member Since 2017
Hi ! This will be my first post, as I am unable to post a new thread in the introduction section (it counts it as spam).

My cat, Champagne has been diagnosed last tuesday (April 25th) and has started his insulin treatment on friday (April 28th). He's given 2 units of Lantus, every 12 hours. I only got his glucometer, an AlphaTrak 2, on monday (May 1st) and so far have done few tests but didn't get to do a glucose curve yet. This morning, his preshot numbers were quite low, but I (stupidly) gave him his shot anyway. He's eating Hill's K/D canned but is slowly transitioning to Hill's M/D canned. I think the food probably has something to do with this dramatic drop.

So far his numbers are:

Monday - 10:00 PM preshot (+12) : 29.2 mmol/L (he'd eaten a tablespoon of Hill's K/D 2 hours prior)

Tuesday - 10:00 AM preshot (+12) : 33.4 mmol/L (he'd eaten a teaspoon of half and half K/D and M/D 2 and a half hour prior)
Tuesday - 10:00 PM preshot (+12) : 23.4 mmol/L (he'd eaten a teaspoon of 3 parts M/D, 1 part K/D, 30 minutes prior)

Wednesday 10:00 AM preshot (for some weird reason this time I tested his BG AFTER giving him his injection) (+12) : 8.2 mmol/L (he'd eaten a teaspoon of 3 parts M/D, 1 part K/D)

So after realizing my mistake, I immediately fed him a teaspoon of straight up canned K/D, which has more carbs. I just tested him again 30 minutes ago and he's at 8.1 mmol/L.

I also called the vet but they told me to send his numbers by email before being able to answer me (which I did).

I feel really dumb right now and I don't really know what to do, other than to continue feeding him.
 
Hi!

8.2 is a low number but not a emergency low number. You should test again in 20 mins after that last snack. Please post. And can you change your thread to include the question mark? So we can get more experienced eyes on this?

K/D is pretty high in carbs depending on type - 27%, which always brought Jones up - good to have around for emergencies. MD looks like it is 13% - which is still high for a diabetic kitty.
 
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Do keep monitoring today.

It would be great if you could create a spreadsheet
it's a wonderful tool for you to keep track and we need it here to advise you.


We usually tell newbies not to shoot a number below 200 until they have a little more data.
It's okay that you did. You are monitoring the situation.

We do shoot lower than that but we like to be there with you , guiding you that first time.

Keep posting your test numbers please.
 
Hello and welcome!

Well, the very good news is that it looks like Champagne is responding well to insulin dose!

Lantus onset isn't until a few hours after the shot however, because it is a "depot" insulin you might also see some movement before that. He'll probably do just fine today, but the safest thing is to monitor fairly closely-- I don't think you're quite at the "every 20 minutes" stage yet, but I'd try to do hourly for the first few hours at least. If he starts dropping low, we can help guide how to pull him back up with the food you have on hand.
 
Thanks for your reply @Tracey&Jones ! My vet also replied and said to test him frequently and be sure he eats well. I know that M/D is quite high, but Champagne also has CKD and the other low-carb food options I've found seem to be loaded with phosphorus. I just tested him right now, as it's been roughly 30 minutes since his last snack. He rose to 11.1 mmol/L.
 
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rhiannon and shadow (GA) said:
Do keep monitoring today.

It would be great if you could create a spreadsheet
it's a wonderful tool for you to keep track and we need it here to advise you.


We usually tell newbies not to shoot a number below 200 until they have a little more data.
It's okay that you did. You are monitoring the situation.

We do shoot lower than that but we like to be there with you , guiding you that first time.

Keep posting your test numbers please.
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I will keep monitoring, thanks for your reply ! Right now (12:20) he's at 11.1 mmol/L. I will also try to create a spreadsheet as soon as I can.
 
Nan & Amber said:
Might be the result of the food, but the other possibility is that he's still on an upswing from last night's low point.
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My vet also suggested to check his BG every 4 hours and to skip tonight's dose (and possibly tomorrow morning's dose if he is too low). Since I haven't had the chance to do a full curve yet, I have no idea how he normally reacts to insulin. I have to admit this is all very new to me, my hands still shake when I'm poking him with needles or lancets. But thank you all for your replies and support, I really appreciate it.
 
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You are doing great. It is a steep learning curve in the beginning.

There are a lot of sticky's at the top of this forum you will want to read.
And you will want to print this one and put it on the fridge. Occasionally website will be down, and you want that info in case you can't get on.
Or power outages, or whatever....
 
I was actually starting to read the one about handling low numbers this morning, but when I saw the part where it says I shouldn't give him any insulin if he's lower than 8.3 mmol/L (which he was) I figured it might be a good idea to ask the question directly. I will read those stickies carefully, thanks for your advice !
 
@Champoux So happy things are ok. Sorry, I lost internet connection at work!

There is a ton of good information available here and the people are great! Those first few days are a little overwhelming. Wish vets would send people here for a day of two of reading before starting any insulin. Jones started on 2 units, then moved to 3. Eventually I figured out that I needed to test more and why and how to run the insulin and numbers to match his needs.

We do have people here with CKD and FD kitties, so if you need any assistance please give a shout out. I have 1 of each, so I know the issue with having two different needs.
 
@Tracey&Jones No problem ! I just fed him some K/D again and he seems to have a good appetite. Right now he's curled up near me and he purred in his sleep, I think it's going well. I'm probably going to retest him in an hour or so.

I agree ! This website is a gold mine of information and has the most supportive community I've ever seen. If only my vet had told me a fraction of the info that's here, I'm sure me and the rest of the family would've been less stressed about the whole thing. And yes, when I first started reading about diabetes, I quickly noticed how those needs weren't quite compatible with those of CKD. So far I'm searching for low carbs/low phosphorus treats to make injections and blood tests more positive for Champagne.

Thanks again for your help and guidance, pet your kitties for me once you get home :) !
 
Update : Just fed him and tested his BG again (2:00 PM) and he's at 12.6 mmol/L, he keeps rising !
 
Looking good so far, Champagne!

Champoux said:
Update : Just fed him and tested his BG again (2:00 PM) and he's at 12.6 mmol/L, he keeps rising !
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That's the tricky thing about all of this-- there are lots of moving parts! There's the shot you just gave and the food you are feeding, but (with the depot) there's also something from the previous shots, and there's also phenomena like "bouncing" (reaction to previous low numbers by going sky-high). All of these things can be acting all at once, pushing and pulling the BG in different directions. It's definitely not as simple as "insulin in, numbers down"! One of the reasons we all use and post a spreadsheet to track numbers is that it makes it much easier to step back and see what is influencing the patterns.

One more thing: until you get your spreadsheet up, it would be most helpful if you would give times in our "+" notation-- that is, "+2" is two hours post-shot, "+4" four hours post shot, etc. We're all in different time zones here, so it's too hard for us to keep things straight otherwise :).
 
Nan & Amber said:
Looking good so far, Champagne!



That's the tricky thing about all of this-- there are lots of moving parts! There's the shot you just gave and the food you are feeding, but (with the depot) there's also something from the previous shots, and there's also phenomena like "bouncing" (reaction to previous low numbers by going sky-high). All of these things can be acting all at once, pushing and pulling the BG in different directions. It's definitely not as simple as "insulin in, numbers down"! One of the reasons we all use and post a spreadsheet to track numbers is that it makes it much easier to step back and see what is influencing the patterns.

One more thing: until you get your spreadsheet up, it would be most helpful if you would give times in our "+" notation-- that is, "+2" is two hours post-shot, "+4" four hours post shot, etc. We're all in different time zones here, so it's too hard for us to keep things straight otherwise :).
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Yes, and every factor seem to affect the other. I have to admit that at the moment, trying to understand everything that affects his BG seems a bit overwhelming. Even though I'm reading lots on the subject, I don't have the best understanding of all the mechanics behind what's happening in his little cat body. I'm building his spreadsheet at the moment, I don't have lots of numbers, but it's a good start. Also oops ! Sorry, I forgot to use the + notations. I sure will from now on :) ! The last reading was +4.
 
Hello and welcome from another Canadian. I also had a kitty with FD and CKD. If you look at the New to the Group Sticky Note, under the food section there is a document with a listing of low carb, low phosphorus foods. That was done last year, and there are a few more that could go on the list now. Getting eventually to a low carb diet will really help his diabetes. But do it slowly and when you are monitoring as it can make a huge difference in insulin needs.

One other thing, kitty was fine in the range of 8.0. We usually take action when they get below 3.8 on the AT.

There is a lot to learn at first, but we all remember what it was like at the beginning. Keep asking questions, we love to help.
 
@Wendy&Neko Thanks for your reply ! I will check this list out. I had heard the change in BG could happen fast with a diet change, but I really didn't expect to see such a big drop this morning, especially compared to the high numbers I got so far ! Since it was my first experience with low numbers, and I didn't know how Champagne normally reacts to insulin, I guess I reacted a bit more strongly than other more experienced members on this forum :) I tested him again at +6 and he's at 18.4 mmol/L, so I think risks of hypo are reduced for now. (Though I will keep monitoring him frequently).
 
Just wanted to say Welcome! I'm also in Canada....in London Ontario.
And don't ever worry about reacting "more strongly"; it's better to react more strongly than not strongly enough!
 
Welcome. When you can please add the BG that you have gotten to your spreadsheet. I need to see the US numbers.
 
tiffmaxee said:
Welcome. When you can please add the BG that you have gotten to your spreadsheet. I need to see the US numbers.
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Oops ! Just found out I've accidentally been filling out the template version (my copy of it anyway). It is now updated, you should be able to see the numbers !
 
Well, Champagne's numbers stayed quite high through the night and they still are (at 26.4 mmol/L at AMPS). I talked to my vet and she told me I could reduce his dose to 1 unit. He gobbled food like crazy this morning every time I fed him, up to the point where he threw up 5 mins after his shot... Right now I'm slowly feeding him his canned food on my finger so he can't wolf it down again. Is just feeding him the right decision, or should I keep some corn syrup close by ? The vet had told me that if he ever throws up straight after a shot, I should give him some sugar.
 
I would just try to get some food into him like you're doing.....a little bit at a time. He's quite high so I doubt you have to be concerned about a hypo but I would get a few tests in just in case. Are you able to be there to test?
How often does Champagne get fed?
 
Judy and Boomer said:
I would just try to get some food into him like you're doing.....a little bit at a time. He's quite high so I doubt you have to be concerned about a hypo but I would get a few tests in just in case. Are you able to be there to test?
How often does Champagne get fed?
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Yes, I'll be home all day. Champagne used to free feed when he was eating dry, but since he began canned food he got the bad habit of eating way too fast. I usually give him small portions (like 1 teaspoon at a time) every 2-3 hours, but if he's sleeping, there can be up to 5 hours between feedings.
 
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Champoux said:
Yes, I'll be home all day. Champagne used to free feed when he was eating dry, but since he began canned food he got the bad habit of eating way too fast. I usually give him small portions (like 1 teaspoon at a time) every 2-3 hours, but if he's sleeping, there can be up to 5 hours between feedings.
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Not sure how big Champagne is but perhaps the tsp of food isn't enough? When you feed him, try spreading it around the dish more....it will force him to eat more slowly.
 
I wouldn't give sugar right after a shot followed by vomit unless he's very low and won't eat. Better to assist feed his regular food like you are doing. High numbers and low numbers can make them very hungry.
 
@Judy and Boomer He used to be a bit overweight at 15 lbs, (he always was a big cat though) but now he's down to 12, which seems to be on the lean/thin side. I haven't weighed him since two weeks ago at the vet, so I'm not sure if this is his exact weight. Also that's a good trick, thanks :) !
 
tiffmaxee said:
I wouldn't give sugar right after a shot followed by vomit unless he's very low and won't eat. Better to assist feed his regular food like you are doing. High numbers and low numbers can make them very hungry.
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During the last hour he ate roughly the equivalent of a teaspoon of food, but he indeed seemed very hungry, he would sometimes try to nibble my finger along with the food. Right now he climbed into his cardboard box to sleep, so I guess I'll give him some more food in an hour. I'll probably slip a blood test at +2 too, just to see how he's doing. Thanks for your advice !
 
At +2 he's down to 18.6 mmol/L (was 26.4 pre-shot), though I'm not completely sure of this result's accuracy. I had to reapply blood because the meter wouldn't read the first time, I managed to poke his ear again and get another drop before it timed out. It took me about 15 seconds, but still.
 
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