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kmoses

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Hello, I am new to this board, I would like to introduce Krismas, my 8 yr old spayed tabby who was diagnosed diabetic about six months ago. I have lots of questions and perhaps some history would help.
Krismas gets Lantus currently 2 units bid, eats lo carb wet food (Fancy Feast Classic series) with small meals put out several times a day. I am sorry to say the first few months of our jouney were fraught with complications. I took kittie to a cat specialist when she first became ill, who diagnosed her, then recommended an extensive battery of lab, x-ray, ultrasound tests to look for a treatable cause of the diabetes. At the same time, the vet recommended I get the Alphatrak monitor and do hometesting, and started her on 1 unit Lantus twice a day and recommended Hills DM dry and wet food. Krismas loved the dry but would not touch the wet, so she was still basically eating dry cat food. I had no problem with the injections but could not get blood on the testing, so was driving over an hour one way to get her blood tested several times a week. Fortunately, the lab testing results all came out negative, no cancer, no positive results for pancreatisis, liver, kidney, bowel problems, no general or urinary tract infections, no dental problems. In the meantime, kittie had terrible problems with dehydration and constipation and even with stool softeners, laxatives, etc would develop impacted colon requiring emergency vet visits. This continued over three months until I exhausted savings after spending several thousand dollars and could no longer afford the numerous and expensive vet services. Through internet searches I found posts from your boards and others and educated myself, changed foods pulling her off the dry food, finally learned how to home test, and found products (canned pumpkin, slippery elm, Pet Alive Natural Moves) that have helped enormously with the dehydration and elimination. I had to leave the cat specialist and have had to basically 'go it alone" for about two months. When I could afford it, I took kitty to the neighborhood vet, who was much less experienced with diabetic cats. She doubled the Lantus dose to 2 units bid based on relatively high flat BG curves ranging from 250-350. She recommended I do a curve weekly and phone in the results. The Lantus increase lowered kittie's curves to roughly 250 am preshot to nadirs around 100. When I asked the vet about the possibility of trying for tighter regulation, she recommended increasing the Lantus another half unit last week. A few days later, AM preshot BG of 36 coupled with behavior (lethargy, not eating, not alert) led me to suspect hypoglycemia, I rubbed her gums with Karo and withheld the AM shot. Three hours later her BG was 407 and gradually went down to 352 over the next several hours. I gave her a decreased shot of 2 units that evening, this morning her preshot BG was 186, I continued with 2 units and called the vet, relating this incident and that I suspected it was a rebound cycle. The vet left a message saying there were no "rebounds" in cats and recommended I increase the dose again. I have called in further messages with more details but have not received calls back. I feel on my own again.

My goals are to tap into the collective experience of your group for advice and support. Of course I take complete responsibility for Kittie's treatment. I would like to set up a spreadsheet on Krismas and join the Lantus group, find out more about the rebound phenomenon, work to regulate kitty and find out more about tight regulation since as time goes by there seems less chance she can ever recover, ask if anyone knows a vet experienced with diabetic cats in my area (north shore suburbs of Chicago) and any other diabetic cat 'parents' in my area. I also have questions about the differences between the Alphatrak readings and human monitors', want keep up with food issues, have questions about supplements that purport to support the pancreas, and all the myriad things that seem to come up with this disease.

Thank you for your patience and compassion in reading my ramble, Kathy and Krismas
 
Welcome, Kathy. What a great job you have done caring for Krismas. Here is the Lantus support group: viewforum.php?f=9 They all use your insulin and will be able to guide you on dosing info. Be sure you read the starred threads at the top of the page (because they will ask if you have :mrgreen: ) Post as a NEWBIE DOSE ADVICE. It is a very busy board so you want to go back and check in for responses. Every time you reply to a question, it will bring your thread back up to the top of the page.

Here is the spreadsheet: Setting up a spreadsheet If you have problems, just ask for help. It is slow coming up, so be patient.

Here is an interesting thread comparing the Alphatrak with human glucometers: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=38300

Be sure to continue reading and asking questions. We would love to help you help your Krismas.

Edited to fix URL.
 
Ditto on everything Sue said. Setting up a spreadsheet and asking for dosing advice in the Lantus forum is definitely the way to go. You are doing amazing, hometesting and doing your research!

I'm not an expert like many in the Lantus forum, but I am familiar with Lantus and in my opinion the dose was raised too much too quickly. Your cat went hypo which means 2.5u is too much. Do NOT raise his dose again like your vet is telling you. Rebound is a very real thing with cats, and your vet is mistaken on this point. Please read this informationon Lantus dosing so you can get an idea of how much doses should be adjusted. We do increases/decreases in increments of .25u, unless the cat is getting consistent extremely high numbers. 2.5u is too much, and if it were me I'd drop the shot back down to 2u + a drop more (we call this a "fat" shot).

You might want to print this out and give it to your vet. Let him/her know that you would like to follow this dosing protocol and because it has been proven bring cats into remission.

Rebound in cats is very well documented. You can point your vet to this article from 1986: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3528096. I don't know if there are any more recent articles that people might be able to provide for you.
 
i'm relatively new as well and wanted to welcome you, kathy. come post in the Lantus forum (under Insulin Support Groups, Lantus) and everyone will help you get settled so you can care for Krismas.

The thing with the vet seems to be very common. people on here know insulin and diabetic cats 24/7. i know you'll get the help you need now.
 
Greetings, Kathy and Krismas!! I love the name!!

You truly have done a wonderful job up to this point, and you are already on the right track! I think you will find the spreadsheet to be a very useful tool that is so easy to use and maintain! You've got food in place, and you're home testing. You caught a hypo... good!

I hope you will join us over in Lantus Land. My Willie was diagnosed almost 4 months ago, and I know that without folks here, well, I can't imagine where we'd be today. Instead, I have a healthy, happy, furry purry 14-15 year old who is streaking around the house and playing with more vigor than I've seen in years! I think you will find the protocol to be easy to follow and the folks here to be incredibly kind and generous with their time.

I would echo the others... if you're comfortable with the change, you'll find that one of the quickest, easiest places to cut costs is switching to a human meter. I too bought the alphatrak at my vet's insistence, but found I just couldn't afford it... the cheapest I ever found strips was $0.83/each... on a day with low cycles, I could spend $10 testing! Many here use the Relion Confirm or Micro found at Walmart... $9 for the meter, $20 for 50 strips. Others also like the Freestyle Lite. The strips are expensive in stores, but are easily obtained online for MUCH better prices. You should at least have a human meter as a backup. I ran out of strips over Christmas weekend... I was out of town and my AT strips didn't get there before I left, but I was able to seamlessly keep testing with the Relion, and had I run out of strips (and one more day and I would have!), a 24 hr walmart was 20 minutes away. If you have a different 24 hour pharmacy closer, you may want to consider getting their in-house branded meter.. If you ever have a cat throwing low numbers and you run out of strips, the less time you have to spend getting more, the better!

I'd also agree that the 2.5u dose is probably too high. If you post over in the lantus forum, I think you'll get more advice from our experts over there!

So, again, welcome! I look forward to learning more about you and Krismas both!!
 
Hi Kathy. I'm another one of the folks who spends her time over on the Lantus board. I also live in Chicago. I'm going to send you a PM regarding vets. If you look at the top of the screen, right below the FDMB logo, there is a line that reads, "User Control Panel (0 new messages) • View your posts." When you receive a PM (private message), the # new messages will change. Just click on the link and it will take you to your mailbox.

I would echo what the others have said. Dropping the dose back to 2.0u makes sense. And BTW, good for you for not giving a shot with a pre-shot test of 36 and for not panicking and doing exactly the right thing. If you don't already have them, I'd also suggest you get U100 syringes that are marked in half unit increments. These kinds of syringes will help enormously since dose changes with Lantus are typically in 0.25u increments.
 
Hi Kathy and Krismas. I also live in Chicago (Roger's Park). I use a vet in Evanston, where they have three docs, but only one that I think is "good" with diabetes. I really like her, but I have been on my own as far as the diabetes goes since I started home testing (after about 6 months). More my choice to save money. etc. This was a couple of years ago when it seemed like most vets did not expect any "help" from the human in caring for this disease (such as home testing and managing doses). Everything I learned, I learned here and then through my own experiences with two diabetic cats.

You are well on your way, I think, to managing this yourself with support from folks here. It really sounds like backing off the dose to 2u or a bit less and then making smaller, more systematic dose changes will work.

There is rebound in cats. It irritates me no end that anyone is saying otherwise and I am betting they are all people that don't care for a diabetic on insulin day in and day out like we do. Here is a link to a great page on Somogyi Rebound on petdiabeteswiki: http://petdiabetes.wikia.com/wiki/Somogyi_rebound Rebound is a confusing situation and it is hard to tell if high BG numbers are from too little or too much insulin, but following a 36 makes it pretty obvious. Also, when you skip a shot like you did (which was the right thing to do) it will take several days for numbers to rebalance themselves for a variety of reason, so higher numbers for 2-3 days is normal.

Have heart about Krismas getting regulated and achieving remission. It doesn't always happen, but it can happen any time. I know the general belief is that remission has to happen in the first few months, but my Beau went into remission after two and a half years, two of which were spent on a "not great" insulin so his chances should have been zero. He has been off insulin and diet controlled for over 18 mos.
 
Hi Kathy and Krismas:

I also live in chicago and have switched vets due to dissatisfaction, as well cost. Fozzy Bear was diagnosed with diabetes and pancreatitis in November. I was initially taking him to City Cat Doctor which is downtown. Although i liked the vet he saw there, it was incredibly expensive compared to other veterinary clinics. I switched vets in Feb. and was bringing him to Greentree Animal Hospital in Libertyville. it was much more cost effective, however, the vet did not communicate with me at all. i had such a poor experience there because i have been so stressed out with his health, and the vet made it 10 times worse. Fortunately, my grandma's neighbor's cat who also has diabetes referred me to Vernon Hills Animal Hospital. He has only been once (just the beginning of this month). It was $45 for the initial appointment, and I think $16 for the blood test (vs the $120 and $30 or $40 at City Cat Doctor) The vet was very good, and so far, i am satisfied (and the person who referred me is also satisfied)...so it appears she has experience with diabetic cats. Although its an hour drive, its only once a month now that he is regulated. They are also open until 8, which is nice. Not sure where you live, and but thats been my experience with those 3 different animal hospitals. Hope this helps
 
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