Newbie. Withholding insulin. Am I wrong?

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tiffmaxee said:
Shoot tomorrow morning. Skip tonight. If too low ask for advice. He’s not too high tonight and it’s fine to wait.
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I agree. Better to shoot tomorrow morning. Pick a time that will let you get tests till +2/+3 without staying up too late.
So if midnight is usually when you go to bed, you might want to shoot at say 8am/pm.

People shoot as early as 5am/pm. Depends on your work schedule and whether you are an early bird or a night owl!
 
tiffmaxee said:
Shoot tomorrow morning. Skip tonight. If too low ask for advice.
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What would be too low? Just so I can prepare. I will need to test a half hour early to allow time for a response from someone. Or longer?

Since I’m not giving insulin tonight, do I have to stay up and test later? Can I just wait and test before the shot tomorrow and then test during the cycle? That would make my life so much easier.

The last big thing is taking food away two hours prior to the test. I’m worried that if I do that I won’t be able to get him to eat when it’s time for insulin and I would literally never be able to get on a schedule. He doesn’t like being told what to do and won’t eat on demand. I’ve tried. So it’s much worse to give insulin after two hours of no food and hope he eats soon after than to let him graze and just eat when he wants. Right? Or what’s your thoughts on that? How big of a deal is it is if he eats a little in the 2 hours prior to testing. He may or may not. He eats plenty throughout the day. It’s just on his own schedule. If I have to remove food for 2 hours and then wait for him to eat, it’s going to be a nightmare with timing every single day
 
Bandit's Mom said:
I agree. Better to shoot tomorrow morning. Pick a time that will let you get tests till +2/+3 without staying up too late.
So if midnight is usually when you go to bed, you might want to shoot at say 8am/pm.

People shoot as early as 5am/pm. Depends on your work schedule and whether you are an early bird or a night owl!
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I’ll actually be up for a couple hours. So it’s not that I don’t have the ability to test him… I made it sound like that intentionally (sorry). Because the truth is.. I just don’t want to.

Please understand. This is SO NEW and we are struggling with these ear pokes. I can do them… But I don’t want to upset him too much too soon. He really hates it. I do too. I’m sure no one likes doing it but it has to be done.

However, I was hoping I could skip doing any more tonight unless it’s absolutely necessary only because I didn’t give him insulin. And I plan on doing the mid cycle tomorrow for the first time.

Am I a bad person for asking?
 
Kiera said:
Am I a bad person for asking?
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Not at all!! Everything is really hard and overwhelming at the beginning. It's even harder when you reaize your vet has given you bad advice and you go through the scare of a possible hypo.

Let's start afresh from tomorrow morning.
 
Bandit's Mom said:
Not at all!! Everything is really hard and overwhelming at the beginning. It's even harder when you reaize your vet has given you bad advice and you go through the scare of a possible hypo.

Let's start afresh from tomorrow morning.
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Perfect. Thank you!

What about the feeding situation? Is it a big deal if I ignore that rule and not remove food 2 hours before? i let him eat when he wants. It’s what I’ve been doing. His number will never be that hugely influenced I don’t think because he doesn’t eat full meals. Never has in the 11 yrs I’ve had him. Just a tiny bit at a time. He won’t eat on demand for insulin either. But I’ve always been able to get him to eat within an hour after. Sometimes it’s 2 hours but that’s tops. The vet said it was completely fine but now I’m questioning everything
 
Bandit's Mom said:
Let's start afresh from tomorrow morning.
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Can you tell me what number would be safe to shoot and what number range I should ask for advice tomorrow? Just so I’m prepared.

you suggest only 0.25u, right? It’s so hard to measure less that 0.5 but I can guess like I did before. No clue what I was actually shooting. Just know it was lower that the 0.5 mark.
 
Kiera said:
What about the feeding situation? Is it a big deal if I ignore that rule and not remove food 2 hours before? i let him eat when he wants. It’s what I’ve been doing. His number will never be that hugely influenced I don’t think because he doesn’t eat full meals. Never has in the 11 yrs I’ve had him. Just a tiny bit at a time. He won’t eat on demand for insulin either. But I’ve always been able to get him to eat within an hour after. Sometimes it’s 2 hours but that’s tops. The vet said it was completely fine but now I’m questioning everything
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The reason we say no food 2 hours before the shot is because you don't want to give insulin based on a number that is influenced (higher) by food. Especially when you are new and your cat is seeing lower numbers. Are you saying that if you don't feed him when he wants to eat, he will refuse food after?!

Kiera said:
Can you tell me what number would be safe to shoot and what number range I should ask for advice tomorrow? Just so I’m prepared.

you suggest only 0.25u, right? It’s so hard to measure less that 0.5 but I can guess like I did before. No clue what I was actually shooting. Just know it was lower that the 0.5 mark.
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If you get the numbers you have been seeing 120-140 at AMPS, give 0.25U. If you get less than 100, don't shoot and post for help.

Do you have syringes with half unit marks? Of 30 unit/0.3ml capacity?
Insulin Care & Syringe Info: Proper Handling, Drawing, Fine Dosing

49822973683_0559ae843a_o.jpg

 
Kiera said:
This is SO NEW and we are struggling with these ear pokes. I can do them… But I don’t want to upset him too much too soon. He really hates it. I do too. I’m sure no one likes doing it but it has to be done.
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Have you tried warming his ear before a poke? Giving him a treat after?
Do you use a lancing device or free-hand with the lancet? What gauge is the lancet?
 
Bandit's Mom said:
The reason we say no food 2 hours before the shot is because you don't want to give insulin based on a number that is influenced (higher) by food. Especially when you are new and your cat is seeing lower numbers. Are you saying that if you don't feed him when he wants to eat, he will refuse food after?!


If you get the numbers you have been seeing 120-140 at AMPS, give 0.25U. If you get less than 100, don't shoot and post for help.

Do you have syringes with half unit marks? Of 30 unit/0.3ml capacity?
Insulin Care & Syringe Info: Proper Handling, Drawing, Fine Dosing

49822973683_0559ae843a_o.jpg
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If I put food in front of him (even if he’s hungry) he walks away. I always joke that he doesn’t like being told what to do and won’t eat or do something only because I want him to.

Basically, when I keep food down at all times, I know he’s either had a little food in the past hour or 2. Or if not, he will eat in a reasonable amount of time after insulin.

My concern is that if I withhold food for hours prior, it’s still impossible to get him to eat right when I put food down. It’s very annoying. So that would mean, with no food in his stomach, I would have to pretend not to care about the food (I’m not even kidding). Then, wait until he eventually decided to eat before I could give insulin. So maintaining a set schedule would be impossible. Do you understand what I mean? I guess if you have never dealt with a cat with weird behavior like this, you probably wouldn’t be able to relate. But short of force feeding him, there’s nothing I can do.

The only compromise I can make is no food for 2 hours prior to AMPS. That test would need to be at +11, not just before insulin. It would give me an hour window to make sure he ate first. Again, to maintain a schedule, I would give insulin on time regardless if he ate 5 minutes after +11 or just before the insulin. Is that better?

When I explained this to my vet, he said it was fine as long as Bailey was eating enough throughout the day.

yes, I do have half unit markings. There’s no way to get it exact but it will be close enough. I understand where it needs to be.

Thanks again for your help! Should I post my AMPS here or create a new thread? I’ll prob get the reading an hour before the shot. Unless you have another suggestion?
 
Kiera said:
The only compromise I can make is no food for 2 hours prior to AMPS. That test would need to be at +11, not just before insulin. It would give me an hour window to make sure he ate first. Again, to maintain a schedule, I would give insulin on time regardless if he ate 5 minutes after +11 or just before the insulin. Is that better?
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If he ate 2 hours before AMPS and you tested at +11, you would still get a food influenced number so I am not sure how this solves the problem.

Let me share an actual example from this morning. A CG got an AMPS of 94, but she felt her cat had eaten in the 45 mins prior. She decided to skip the shot (for this reason and others) and it was good she did because he was 76 after an hour - once the food bump had worn off.

Just to clarify, he can eat at any time except 2 hours before the AMPS and 2 hours before the PMPS. In case we have our wires crossed.

If you are shooting a food influenced number, plus can't test him very much and you are new and unused to handling lower numbers you could be endangering him. I don't mean to make you feel like you are a bad parent - I just want you to be aware of the risks involved while giving insulin so you can take an informed decision.

I know we have been throwing a lot of information at you and I understand it seems like it is all too much to handle. We have all been where you are and we want to help, but we honestly cannot give you advise on whether to shoot or not without correct information.
 
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He doesn’t have to eat a lot before insulin as lantus usually doesn’t start working until +2. You test to be sure it’s safe to shoot. Things can change in an hour. We feed to make sure they will eat later in the cycle if their bg drops. Then you shoot. Quite often cats are too low at +11 and high enough by shot time as the previous dose wears off.
 
Bandit's Mom said:
If he ate 2 hours before AMPS and you tested at +11, you would still get a food influenced number so I am not sure how this solves the problem.

Let me share an actual example from this morning. A CG got an AMPS of 94, but she felt her cat had eaten in the 45 mins prior. She decided to skip the shot (for this reason and others) and it was good she did because he was 76 after an hour - once the food bump had worn off.

Just to clarify, he can eat at any time except 2 hours before the AMPS and 2 hours before the PMPS. In case we have our wires crossed.

If you are shooting a food influenced number, plus can't test him very much and you are new and unused to handling lower numbers you could be endangering him. I don't mean to make you feel like you are a bad parent - I just want you to be aware of the risks involved while giving insulin so you can take an informed decision.

I know we have been throwing a lot of information at you and I understand it seems like it is all too much to handle. We have all been where you are and we want to help, but we honestly cannot give you advise on whether to shoot or not without correct information.
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tiffmaxee said:
He doesn’t have to eat a lot before insulin as lantus usually doesn’t start working until +2. You test to be sure it’s safe to shoot. Things can change in an hour. We feed to make sure they will eat later in the cycle if their bg drops. Then you shoot. Quite often cats are too low at +11 and high enough by shot time as the previous dose wears off.
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I didn’t see these messages until right before I was going to test and give insulin and wasn’t paying attention to food.
So I delayed 2 hours

2 hours later than usual but no food and he was 120. Normally I would’ve given 0.25 as suggested but it was too late of a time. I had no choice but to skip. Without insulin, my tests won’t mean as much like I was hoping for today.

When should my next test be? Or is there no point since he didn’t get insulin. I’ll obviously test PMPS.

To clarify, I can withhold food for 2 hours and give insulin without him eating anything as long as he eats afterwards? How much of a time window do I have? An hour after? Less? He won’t eat even a little right when I put the food down so it’s going to have to be given without food. Or my schedule will never be maintained

He ate some food exactly 42 minutes after I tested today. I put the food down immediately after AMPS. This is my exact problem. Would that have been fine if I gave insulin with the number 120 and him eating when he did?
 
Lantus onsets, kicks in, usually at +2. You do want him to eat at least a few teaspoons when you shoot. Is there any food he loves that he will eat no matter what?
You don’t need to test again until pmps.
 
Kiera said:
To clarify, I can withhold food for 2 hours and give insulin without him eating anything as long as he eats afterwards? How much of a time window do I have? An hour after? Less? He won’t eat even a little right when I put the food down so it’s going to have to be given without food. Or my schedule will never be maintained
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It's normally test, feed, shoot and more often than not it works. But sometimes cats don't eat before the shot or eat a whole lot before the shot.

The onset of Lantus can be anywhere between +1 and +3. Differs from cat to cat. So depending on when your cat's onset is, you have time till half an hour before onset to get food in.

Wow! He really watches his food bowl so closely that removing it for some time would make such a difference? Can you add some topper to the food to entice him?

Since you skipped you needn't really test, but it would be interesting to see if his BG drops 3 hours after food. If his pancreas are working, they would produce insulin in response to food and lower his numbers. So if you can get another test...any info is good to have info!
 
tiffmaxee said:
Lantus onsets, kicks in, usually at +2. You do want him to eat at least a few teaspoons when you shoot. Is there any food he loves that he will eat no matter what?
You don’t need to test again until pmps.
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Bandit's Mom said:
It's normally test, feed, shoot and more often than not it works. But sometimes cats don't eat before the shot or eat a whole lot before the shot.

The onset of Lantus can be anywhere between +1 and +3. Differs from cat to cat. So depending on when your cat's onset is, you have time till half an hour before onset to get food in.

Wow! He really watches his food bowl so closely that removing it for some time would make such a difference? Can you add some topper to the food to entice him?

Since you skipped you needn't really test, but it would be interesting to see if his BG drops 3 hours after food. If his pancreas are working, they would produce insulin in response to food and lower his numbers. So if you can get another test...any info is good to have info!
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I’m not in the habit of taking food away. I forgot again tonight but remembered when I saw him eating. It’s been an hour and 20 minutes since he’s had food. I’m going to delay insulin time to make sure his number is 2 hours without food. So that’s 40 minutes from now. Will you guys be up?
 
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Scratch that! I’m feeling like such a failure today!!! Shortly after sending my last message I caught him eating from my other cats bowl. He’s literally never done that before. Luckily; I switched his diet to the same thing after a Bailey s diagnosis. So it was friskies pate.

Now I’m back to having to wait an hour and 45 min. Ugh!!! I’m doing everything wrong! I almost have to laugh about it. Otherwise it’s going to get me feeling too down on myself

I’m literally going to wait and test and then give the shot if needed. Middle of the night here I come! I don’t care about the time. I can lower it 30 minutes every day until I’m back on schedule, right? So it will be an annoyance and inconvenient for a week. That’s ok. Better I’m tired during the week than risk his good numbers slipping away because I messed up. AGAIN!

Can you please give me guideline on what to do tonight since I’m assuming I’m the only one who’s crazy enough to stay awake all night? I’m working from home all week so it’s actually happening at the perfect time. I can make it work. I have to.

please confirm:
-what numbers do I skip?
-what numbers do I shoot?

I think you said to give 0.25 units if his numbers are how they’ve been around 120-140. You also said not to shoot if lower than 100. What about 101-119? What if it’s higher than 140 by a little? What if it’s higher by a lot?

I never thought this would be so much work. It’s like a full time job. One I probably should be fired from
 
I am not sure what time it is for you - are you on the West Coast?
I am in India so it's 11am for me, I will be around all night.

I still think you can skip another night and start tomorrow morning. Set an alarm, pick up all cat food and then test and shoot him two hours later.
His numbers are looking good so there is no harm in waiting another day! :-)

And go easy on yourself! Adjusting to the routine of a diabetic cat does take getting used to. Hoping that it won't be for a long time for you and Bailey! :bighug:
 
Bandit's Mom said:
And....start a new post in the Lantus forum tomorrow morning. Thanks :)
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I’m pretty determined to stay up and get this done tonight. The new PMPS would be in 1 hour and 20 minutes from now. I just had 2 cups of coffee. Chugged them actually. LOL.

I’m in the US, central time. It’s 12:45am. My new shot time is 2:00am. At this point, I can wait an hour. And then tomorrow I can do AMPS at 1:45pm and PMPS at 1:30, right? If I do this everyday I will be back on schedule in no time. I’ll feel much better than delaying this longer. I can handle tired.

would you like me to post the number tonight here or start a new thread?

I’m a little confused about posting in the Lantus forum. I don’t understand the titles and it seems strict over there. I don’t know understand how I post correctly in that forum. So I’m afraid to
 
Hi Kiera, I can tag @Bandit's Mom ( Bhooma ) for you
I can help you with how to post on the Lantus forum , it's easy
First you put the
Date, then Bailey, the AMPS- number
Then when you test after his AMPS you can add those tests on
I'll give you an EXAMPLE
9-9 Bailey AMPS-140. +2 130 +3. 120 and so on
You can continue posting his PMPS also
When you post on the Lantus always copy and paste your previous days post
where you would start to write something
Everyday you do a new thread (post)
Do you understand this :cat:
By the way Bailey is so darn adorable that face of his :cat:
 
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Kiera if you ever need help you can always tag someone, look back and see you might have helped you before. To do this after the last word you type do a space then put @ and the first couple of letters of the person you want to tag and a drop box will come down then tap on the name
Example @Kiera always make sure it's blue when you tag
 
Diane Tyler's Mom said:
Kiera if you ever need help you can always tag someone, look back and see you might have helped you before. To do this after the last word you type do a space then put @ and the first couple of letters of the person you want to tag and a drop box will come down then tap on the name
Example @Kiera always make sure it's blue when you tag
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Hi! Thank you for the info! I’m not sure if you read the previous messages. I just tested now (2 hours after food). His PMPS is 110.
I have already skipped the last 6 cycles. Can you please recommend what I should do? Continue to skip or give a small dose? Like 0.25? I don’t know where these numbers are coming from without insulin. A month ago he was very high and exhibiting literally every symptom of diabetes. We did one curve at the vet and my doctor was considering increasing the dose! Glad I didn’t!

I have been giving 2u, twice a day and didn’t know about home testing.

I got very lucky and tested him just in time. It’s possible I was overdosing him and causing him to remain hypo for a few days. That’s when I started seeing him act strange and I knew something was wrong. I’m still having nightmares about it.

My knowledge on diabetes was less than zero. Plus, I trusted my vet. I didn’t consider he was putting my sweet boy in danger. I wasn’t even aware of hypo. So my vet really dropped the ball.

anyway, He was either on too high of a dose or he’s somehow already in remission or heading there… but I don’t know if I should be giving insulin or not. I don’t want these numbers to be temporary and go back to high again for stopping insulin too soon. Please help
 
Diane Tyler's Mom said:
Kiera if you ever need help you can always tag someone, look back and see you might have helped you before. To do this after the last word you type do a space then put @ and the first couple of letters of the person you want to tag and a drop box will come down then tap on the name
Example @Kiera always make sure it's blue when you tag
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I’ve only had help from this post so far. It’s my very first time making a thread.
 
Diane Tyler's Mom said:
Hi Kiera, I can tag @Bandit's Mom ( Bhooma ) for you
I can help you with how to post on the Lantus forum , it's easy
First you put the
Date, then Bailey, the AMPS- number
Then when you test after his AMPS you can add those tests on
I'll give you an EXAMPLE
9-9 Bailey AMPS-140. +2 130 +3. 120 and so on
You can continue posting his PMPS also
When you post on the Lantus always copy and paste your previous days post
where you would start to write something
Everyday you do a new thread (post)
Do you understand this :cat:
By the way Bailey is so darn adorable that face of his :cat:
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Honestly you lost me. But I can read this again tomorrow when I can focus. It’s late
 
Diane Tyler's Mom said:
She doesn't mind I'm sure. Hi Bhooma
@Bandit's Mom
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I will have to skip if I don’t hear back soon. I’m already WAY past my normal shoot time. Hours. I decided it was worth it and I would slowly get back to schedule by 30 min every day. But now it’s getting close to the point of unmanageable. I’ll give it another 10 min. Thanks for your help!
 
Sorry. Only just seeing this. I don't mind. You can ask as many questions as you want. If you shoot, you would have to be up to test 4-5 hours after the shot.

Sorry I'm on my phone so keeping it brief. Also getting motion sick if I read when moving!
 
Kiera said:
I will have to skip if I don’t hear back soon. I’m already WAY past my normal shoot time. Hours. I decided it was worth it and I would slowly get back to schedule by 30 min every day. But now it’s getting close to the point of unmanageable. I’ll give it another 10 min. Thanks for your help!
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I would skip
 
Bandit's Mom said:
Sorry. Only just seeing this. I don't mind. You can ask as many questions as you want. If you shoot, you would have to be up to test 4-5 hours after the shot.

Sorry I'm on my phone so keeping it brief. Also getting motion sick if I read when moving!
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No need to apologize. I guess I just don’t understand what my numbers mean. Should I shoot? Would you? These numbers seem good to me without insulin but am I wrong? I wish I knew the logic or how to interpret this stuff.

I can set an alarm and test again. I think. This is brand new to me so I’ve never tried in the middle of the night.
 
I’m worried that his numbers are only temporarily low because he was so low for the one day I know of and likely the two prior as well. If I’m understanding things right, he was very likely hypo and in the danger zone but I didn’t know. Could this be him still recovering from those days he spent in hypo?

while I’m on the subject, are there any complications from being in a hypo for a day or several days? He’s still been acting so lethargic. I may just be over analyzing things and seeing a problem that’s not really there because I’m paranoid.

I can’t help it! I just learned about all of this and it’s very scary to know I was putting his life at risk every day (totally clueless to it)
 
Diane Tyler's Mom said:
I would skip and start fresh in the morning
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OK thank you. Are you suggesting that because of the time or because of his numbers? I’m willing to make the sacrifice and sleep a lot less this week until I’m back on schedule if needed. I was doing wrong by him for so long without knowing it. I’m trying to make it right
 
Bandit's Mom said:
Please go to bed. Don't shoot. I will send you a long message answering all your questions in a bit. If you can set an alarm and pick up food in the morning.
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I’m going to go back to my 11/11 schedule. So no need to set an alarm. I will take away food (from both cats—everyone suffers together LOL) 2 hours prior to AMPS.

I really appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions. I do have one other one question… If you don’t mind or even know. If you do, can you include it with your message later please?

I’m having issues with my other cat but it’s not related to diabetes. Are you familiar with a site as wonderful as this for other cat related health issues? I realize now that my vet is completely incompetent. Angry doesn’t even begin to cover how I feel about the horrible advice he gave me. Plus all the very important things he left out. I don’t even know what to do about it. I don’t trust anything he says about anything anymore. We are better off getting help from strangers.

I’m not one to stir up trouble but I’m worried he’s going to give the same horrible advice to other people about their cats after dx of diabetes and they can be killed as a result. It’s really bothering me…

Anyway, thank you so much for everything and I look forward to your message!
 
So here goes my magnum opus!

The normal numbers for blood sugar for cat is 50-100 mg/dl on a human meter. A cat is considered in remission when it's BG stays in the normal range without insulin for 2 weeks. While 100-120 is a just a little higher than normal, for a strong remission, you want numbers to be below 100 before you stop insulin.

The onset of Lantus is typically between +1 and +3 and then nadir between +4 and +6. We ask people to try and figure out (with tests) what their cat's behaviour on Lantus is - onset, nadir etc

Lantus is dosed twice a day with 12 hours between shots. You want to fix your shot time such that you can test till +2 wihout staying up late and on occasion (when the numbers dip lower) till +4 or even +6. If you shoot at 11am/11pm, you may be up most nights testing! Like I said earlier, most people shoot between 5am/pm and 8am/pm depending on their work schedules and whether they are night owls or early birds.

Kiera said:
I’m worried that his numbers are only temporarily low because he was so low for the one day I know of and likely the two prior as well. If I’m understanding things right, he was very likely hypo and in the danger zone but I didn’t know. Could this be him still recovering from those days he spent in hypo?

while I’m on the subject, are there any complications from being in a hypo for a day or several days? He’s still been acting so lethargic. I may just be over analyzing things and seeing a problem that’s not really there because I’m paranoid.
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Lantus is a depot insulin and the depot take a few days to build and to empty. The 2U depot from giving shots twice a day could have affected his number for 3 days after you stopped. However, considering that he hasn't had insulin since the AM of 9/5, it is safe to say that his current numbers are not due to insulin or temporary. His numbers have come down due to a combination of a change to a low carb diet and possibly insulin for a month. It looks like he does need some more insulin support to get him into normal numbers (below 100) but we don't know how much.

The reason that diabetic cats feels lethargic/low energy when they first encounter lower numbers is because their bodies have gotten used to the higher numbers and normal numbers feel low - like a caffeine/sugar withdrawal. As they get used to lower/normal numbers they love them and start feeling crappy in higher numbers.

Kiera said:
Are you suggesting that because of the time or because of his numbers?
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Both. His numbers are good enough that he won't suffer from another night without insulin and like I said earlier, you want to shoot at a time when you can get test up to as last as 4-5 hours after the shot without being up all night. Unless you are the kind who can nap between tests!

Kiera said:
I’m going to go back to my 11/11 schedule. So no need to set an alarm. I will take away food (from both cats—everyone suffers together LOL) 2 hours prior to AMPS.
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If you see this message earlier, I would suggest you shoot earlier so you are not up every night testing till atleast 1am. But if that works for you, it works for us! :)

Kiera said:
I’m having issues with my other cat but it’s not related to diabetes. Are you familiar with a site as wonderful as this for other cat related health issues?
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If you could tell me what issues, I could you point you in that direction or connect you to someone here who can help.
 
Kiera said:
I realize now that my vet is completely incompetent. Angry doesn’t even begin to cover how I feel about the horrible advice he gave me. Plus all the very important things he left out. I don’t even know what to do about it. I don’t trust anything he says about anything anymore. We are better off getting help from strangers.

I’m not one to stir up trouble but I’m worried he’s going to give the same horrible advice to other people about their cats after dx of diabetes and they can be killed as a result. It’s really bothering me…
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For what it's worth, alot of vets don't know much about diabetes. They learn the basics in school and then learn the rest from diabetic food sales reps. I give him credit for recommending the switch to wet food. Alot of them just prescribe the dry diabetic kibble and insulin and send you on your way.

When I adopted Chucky, the shelter vet told me that he must eat the diabetic food for the rest of his life. She said to just give him insulin and to test his urine if I notice anything off. She did say that if his urine strip is negative, I should withhold insulin and bring him in for a curve, but she didn't explain hypoglycemia or how it happens and advised me against testing his blood at home when I asked.
I know she handles alot of difficult neglect cases at the shelter, so she's obviously a good vet in general. Just maybe not that good at diabetes lol.

If you've been happy with him until now, it may be worth it to talk to him about the stuff that you've learned. He may be receptive to the information, and as great as this forum is, it's ideal to also be in partnership with your vet on this journey. Also, it will help him do better with other diabetic cats that he may treat in the future.
But if he's not receptive to the new information, then you know you need a new vet.

Also fun fact - Kiera is getting her water from the food!!
It turns out that alot of cats who are on wet food don't really drink water. They can be fully hydrated on food that is 70% water, so when they have food that is upward of 80% water, that's plenty for them and they don't really feel the need to drink much, if at all. Especially if you add extra water to the food.

When I first got Chucky, he loved his water fountain but I probably haven't seen him drink from it or any of his supplemental bowls in a couple of weeks lol.
 
Chuckington said:
For what it's worth, alot of vets don't know much about diabetes. They learn the basics in school and then learn the rest from diabetic food sales reps. I give him credit for recommending the switch to wet food. Alot of them just prescribe the dry diabetic kibble and insulin and send you on your way.

When I adopted Chucky, the shelter vet told me that he must eat the diabetic food for the rest of his life. She said to just give him insulin and to test his urine if I notice anything off. She did say that if his urine strip is negative, I should withhold insulin and bring him in for a curve, but she didn't explain hypoglycemia or how it happens and advised me against testing his blood at home when I asked.
I know she handles alot of difficult neglect cases at the shelter, so she's obviously a good vet in general. Just maybe not that good at diabetes lol.

If you've been happy with him until now, it may be worth it to talk to him about the stuff that you've learned. He may be receptive to the information, and as great as this forum is, it's ideal to also be in partnership with your vet on this journey. Also, it will help him do better with other diabetic cats that he may treat in the future.
But if he's not receptive to the new information, then you know you need a new vet.

Also fun fact - Kiera is getting her water from the food!!
It turns out that alot of cats who are on wet food don't really drink water. They can be fully hydrated on food that is 70% water, so when they have food that is upward of 80% water, that's plenty for them and they don't really feel the need to drink much, if at all. Especially if you add extra water to the food.

When I first got Chucky, he loved his water fountain but I probably haven't seen him drink from it or any of his supplemental bowls in a couple of weeks lol.
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So it’s once again later it’s than I had hoped, but still manageable. I’ve been doing pretty good with BG tests but had a hard time this morning. Even after warming the ear, I wasn’t getting enough blood. I’m free handing and usually get it on the first or second try. After 4 failed attempts my cat was no longer having it and decided he was hiding from me after that.

finally got him to forgive me and retested without food. His AMPS is 117. It seems to be a little lower everyday (even without insulin). I have skipped the past 7 cycles.

Do I shoot 0.25u now? Do I need to post a new thread? I’m worried if I do that, people won’t know what’s been going on and it will get too confusing. Thoughts?

I suppose I will post a new thread as well, just in case I’m supposed to. Not sure how the rules work here or where I’m supposed to post though….
 
Bandit's Mom said:
So here goes my magnum opus!

The normal numbers for blood sugar for cat is 50-100 mg/dl on a human meter. A cat is considered in remission when it's BG stays in the normal range without insulin for 2 weeks. While 100-120 is a just a little higher than normal, for a strong remission, you want numbers to be below 100 before you stop insulin.

The onset of Lantus is typically between +1 and +3 and then nadir between +4 and +6. We ask people to try and figure out (with tests) what their cat's behaviour on Lantus is - onset, nadir etc

Lantus is dosed twice a day with 12 hours between shots. You want to fix your shot time such that you can test till +2 wihout staying up late and on occasion (when the numbers dip lower) till +4 or even +6. If you shoot at 11am/11pm, you may be up most nights testing! Like I said earlier, most people shoot between 5am/pm and 8am/pm depending on their work schedules and whether they are night owls or early birds.


Lantus is a depot insulin and the depot take a few days to build and to empty. The 2U depot from giving shots twice a day could have affected his number for 3 days after you stopped. However, considering that he hasn't had insulin since the AM of 9/5, it is safe to say that his current numbers are not due to insulin or temporary. His numbers have come down due to a combination of a change to a low carb diet and possibly insulin for a month. It looks like he does need some more insulin support to get him into normal numbers (below 100) but we don't know how much.

The reason that diabetic cats feels lethargic/low energy when they first encounter lower numbers is because their bodies have gotten used to the higher numbers and normal numbers feel low - like a caffeine/sugar withdrawal. As they get used to lower/normal numbers they love them and start feeling crappy in higher numbers.


Both. His numbers are good enough that he won't suffer from another night without insulin and like I said earlier, you want to shoot at a time when you can get test up to as last as 4-5 hours after the shot without being up all night. Unless you are the kind who can nap between tests!


If you see this message earlier, I would suggest you shoot earlier so you are not up every night testing till atleast 1am. But if that works for you, it works for us! :)


If you could tell me what issues, I could you point you in that direction or connect you to someone here who can help.
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Thank you sooo much for the info! That was really helpful and I appreciate you taking the time to do it!

I did see your message a lot earlier but I failed to get his blood glucose test so it’s still 1:30. LOL. I’ve excepted the fact that there is a learning curve here and it’s going to take me a while to be able to do this at the time I want. Today I know what I did wrong so I should be fine for my next test. I’ve also made arrangements with work to allow myself to be home for most of the day for at least the next two weeks.

anyway, its 117. So I’m assuming I shoot 0.25 u? He won’t eat and I’ve been following him around with his bowl for the past 30 min. That’s just making it worse. I know he will eat within the next hour or 2. But he won’t eat on demand. I told you! It’s very frustrating. The only thing I can get him to eat right away is something I’m sure he shouldn’t be eating, like a couple teaspoons of skim milk or a tiny bit of cheese. That he will eat every time. Nothing else seems to work. Food with gravy I can probably get them to eat but that’s how I got into this mess in the first place probably.

For my other cat, you said you might know where to direct me for help. Should I send that in a private message so I don’t have off topic info posted on this site? I’m assuming that’s a no-no.

thanks again so much!!
 
Kiera said:
He won’t eat and I’ve been following him around with his bowl for the past 30 min. That’s just making it worse. I know he will eat within the next hour or 2. But he won’t eat on demand. I told you! It’s very frustrating.
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He hasn't eaten in 2 hours? Maybe he will eat if you pretend you don't care?

Kiera said:
Should I send that in a private message so I don’t have off topic info posted on this site? I’m assuming that’s a no-no.
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Send me a private message.
 
Bandit's Mom said:
He hasn't eaten in 2 hours? Maybe he will eat if you pretend you don't care?


Send me a private message.
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I’m pretending not to care as we speak. For what it’s worth, I know if I leave him alone he will eat. Likely within the next hour. He typically eats 3-5 large bites every couple of hours. Sometimes more if he’s hungrier. I know he wants food because I took it away and saw him looking for it earlier. He’s just being a brat
 
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