Newbie with questions regarding regulating with food

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Harley's Mom

Harley's Mom

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Good morning to everyone and thanks in advance for any advice.

I would like to start with some background. Our cat Harley is a 25 lb Maine Coon male. He is 11 years old next month. At about the age of 8 Harley started having UTI issues. He doesn't make stones actually but builds up a grit that blocks his pipes like sludge. Anyway against my better judgement we let the vet talk us in to putting him on the Hills CD. After about about 6 months on that food Harley begin to look like a cancer patient, hair dull and lifeless, some bald spots etc. I finally told the vet I was changing him to another food and we started feeding Solid Gold. He begin to look better again but on regular food after about six months his UTI flared up again. This time I did not put him back on Hills, I ordered him Wysong Uretic and fed him half Wysong and half Solid Gold (Katz-N-Flocken). During that total 2 1/2 year period he was tested for diabetes a few times because he has always been a heavy drinker (water) and he is a big cat but the vet says he isn't fat. He was tested six months ago and was fine, but I recently took him to the vet because of pain issues. I could tell his front legs hurt when he walks and he moves gingerly. The vet does say he has arthritis and that's a tough one because there aren't many pain meds that work well for cats. The Dr. again ran the diabetes test and this time BINGO! Now he suddenly popped up with a blood glucose number of 443. The vet is thinking that the Wysong Uretic may be the culprit so I took him off that and put him immediately on Wellness Core. We waited 10 days and the vet re-tested. His number dropped from 443 to 341 and the vet wants to wait another 10 days and test again before we jump into insulin. We are hoping he can be regulated just by the change in diet. I am not against giving shots since we already give our own vaccines but I don't want to start insulin unless it is absolutely necessary.
Is this normal? Is this what I should be doing? Are we wrong to hope to correct his numbers by diet? My husband has been talking to one guy online that insists we are killing our cat and I am trying to do the best for the cat. I know a lot about cats and dogs, but little about cat diabetes so help me out if you can.
Facts:
11 years old
25 lbs - size of a small cocker spaniel - not fat- huge cat
No weight loss over a 5 year period
No weight gain really within 1/2 lb or so over 5 year period
Drinks a lot and always has really
Doesn't eat huge amounts but feeds well - we generally free feed because we have 3 other indoor male cats too!
WON"T EAT WET FOOD
Pee's freely and pretty large amounts
Not very active
Has arthritis

Hoping for help here, Donna
 
Hi Donna, and welcome!

Sad to say but that dry food is at the root of Harley's problems. There is a full explanation about the dry food link to both diabetes and renal conditions at www.catinfo.org You say he won't eat wet food, but you can try the transition tips for dry food addicts, also on that site.

The proper diet is necessary for bringing diabetes under control, but a short course of insulin as early as possible in addition to the diet change has shown far better results than a diet change alone.

As for your other cats, they should be on the same species appropriate diet as Harley and you can frree feed wet food as many of us do.

Please read Dr. Pierson's site and come back with more questions.

Gia & Quirk (GA)

Guilt trips are a detour from life
 
Hi and welcome :)

As I'm at work, I'll be brief but don't take it wrong :)

The switch in foods likely won't be enough, especially if it is still dry food as even good dry foods are higher in carbs. But even a switch to a low carb canned isn't usually enough at the beginning. Going with insulin AND a diet change is the best way to give that pancreas a break. He may end up being diet controlled eventually though, so there is hope.

As for diet and crystals and UTIs, a canned diet that is low in carbs and high in moisture is the best thing for pH and for maintaining good urinary health, whether the cat is prone to crystal issues or UTIs or both. For more on that, see Dr Lisa's site http://www.catinfo.org....the good thing is that these diets are great for all cats and especially diabetics :)

Please read through the faq linked in a separate post in this forum near the top, and come on back with more info/questions

Jen
 
Hi Donna,

Did your vet do a fruitosamine test? That is the definite test for diabetes, as it gives you an average blood glucose picture over the past few weeks. If the vet just took a blood glucose reading, it is just not as good. The number can be influenced by stress, with the noises and other animals he encounters there. The other thing to do is to start hometesting so you have accurate numbers to work from - not stress induced. You can see how high he actually is.

Please read this site by a vet: http://www.catinfo.org She gives some good research and information on what food is best for diabetes and kitties with UTI.

You can try diet for a short period, but it needs to be the right food - wet, lo carb. The pancreas has only a short time frame when it can still be healed, in hopes that the kitty can go completely off insulin. But very few cats here have been regulated by diet alone.

So, if I were you, I would change his diet and give it a few days, hometesting often. Then you will have a good clear picture of whether he needs insulin.
 
hi donna,
while you still may need to use insulin two factors will help dramatically. you can bet his #'s were higher at vet's (stress) and you can bet they will be lower on wet diet (follow janet and binky chart) so you might see dramatically lower #'s once you home test and change diet. don't worry if you need insulin for a bit....it could be short lived.
 
Donna,

I also have a slightly large Maine Coon who refuses wet food. There is hope! Peeps was on insulin for about 9 months when I did a diet change to dry Hills M/D. She had a hypoglycemic attack and has been insulin free for 16 months. I was told another cat couldn't eat the dry M/D because of his UTI problems. He is supposed to be on Hills C/D, but only gets it periodically and has not had UTI problems since he has mainly been on the M/D.

There is a food chart that is parallel to Janet & Binky's wet food diets. You can find it here: http://binkyspage.tripod.com/dryfood.html. I couldn't find Solid Gold on the dry foods list, but Wysong Uretic is. The Uretic has 23% carbs. For a comarison the M/D has 13% carbs, the C/D is at 36% carbs. There are also dry foods on that list that go below the 13%, and some are a bit lower than a chunk of the wet food % in carbs. Innova EVO Cat & Kitten has only 8% carbs.

As for holding off on insulin until you get his diet just right, it is really your choice. As of right now, he does need insulin in my opinion. You are looking at other potential health risks if his numbers do stay high.

Have you considered getting a home testing kit? His numbers might read lower if he is at home being tested instead of at the vet's - because of the risk of stress.
 
I will definitely be trying to force the issue with wet food. My other 3 cats will all readily eat wet food even though they are all seniors and all were raised on dry but Harley is my problem child. Recently I did get him to lick some wet food by EVO but I am sure I need to pick up their left over dry food to get them to feel the hungry sensation. We only feed a certain amount per day but we do leave it out in the morning if they have food left and we add to it in the evening so they are never totally without food. My husband is the one I am going to have to hit over the head about that.

But if I can get him to wet food you still think I should start insulin? This is what I am trying to figure out. What I think you are all saying is that I should not wait for the 2 week re-test but start him on insulin now. Is that right? Since we aren't home during the day will that be an issue?

Also could his pain have anything to do with the numbers?

I do not have a home test kit but I wouldn't mind getting one if I can learn how to test. That would be easier and cheaper than running back and forth to the vet.

Right now Harley is On EVO Herring & Salmon and it has 50% crude protein and 10% carbs.
 
There have been a few cats who have been managed through diet alone without any insulin in the beginning, but it is rare. Can you wait 2 weeks? maybe. There is no way to know whether he may develop complications like inappetance, hepatic lipidosis or ketones which can really complicate matters. And if he refuses canned food and doesn't get enough food, then he's at further risk.

As for you being away during the day, the vast majority of us all work. You start insulin at a low dose, you test prior to giving shots and do spotchecks when you can. That way you manage the risk.

Yes, you test at home as opposed to at the clinic, just the way human diabetics do. vet clinics do not replicate home, vet stress may inflate bgs, and you need to test prior to shots so you know if it is safe to shoot, and you need to test periodically throughout the day to see how the insulin is working. Near the top of this forum is a post by Cindy who will send you a free kit.

THe issue with his legs may be neuropathy and if it is, it will improve with time as his diabetes is stabilized. You can also give methyl b12 supplements as well.
 
Food or meter?

Lots of us feed lo carb Fancy Feast. Here is the chart: http://binkyspage.tripod.com/CanFoodOld.html You want a food between 8-10% carbs and limit seafood to once a week or so.

Meter. Lots of people here use the ReliOn from Walmart. It is cheap as are the strips, and it takes a small amount of blood. You want a meter that sips, takes a small amount of blood. Meters can be free at the drug store; it's the strips that are expensive. But there are good sources for them after your first buy at the pharmacy. We got ours on ebay for half the price.
 
Hi there and welcome.
My cat was one of the lucky ones that was/is reulated by a diet change alone. Her vet BG numbers was 287, and her fructosime level was borederline (485), which I had to ask for - it wasn't done automatically even though the vet wanted to put her on insulin "immediately" (on the office bg reading alone!) The vet laughed at diet change alone doing it (until the fruc results came back borderline ) and she also laughed at hometesting - I have not been back to her since.
I was terrified of giving the insulin and refused it. I came here and learned so much! She had previously only been on a dry food diet and I changed that to all wet with the lowest carb food on Janet & Binky's list. I also urine tested her every day, (BG & ketones) and learned to hometest. It took 2 weeks to finally get enough blood for a reading - and that was also how long it took for her urine tests to come up negative. I know she's "diet controlled" because of her blood glucose numbers - thanks to this board and all the valuable information.

So, yes - it IS possible for regulation with a diet change alone. This has been my experience, but as I've said, Sweety's levels were low and borderline. If they were very high, I might have done something else.
 
You have received a lot of good advice already. I would like to add that arthritis pain can add to high BGs. Two things you can try for the arthritis pain are Cosequin and/or Adequan. Cosequin is an over the counter glucosamine/chondroitin supplement that you add to their food (use a little water if you are putting on dry food). Adequan is an injectable form of glucosamine that requires a prescription from your vet. Angus is currently on Adequan. He gets one injection every four weeks.
 
I thought about this a bit more while away at my work out...

It is less risky to put off insulin if your cat does not have a ton of symptoms and is still eating well. But. If your cat looks like sh*t and isn't eating and is lethargic, then obviously you have no room to wait. Question : did you have a fructosamine done? was it borderline like Jayne's experience?

If you have room to wait, and if you can significantly change the carb content in his diet, and if you can monitor his urine for ketones, then there is less harm in waiting and it may bring you peace of mind. But if not, please do consider insulin and hometesting :)

Jen
 
Harley's Mom said:
I will definitely be trying to force the issue with wet food. My other 3 cats will all readily eat wet food even though they are all seniors and all were raised on dry but Harley is my problem child. Recently I did get him to lick some wet food by EVO but I am sure I need to pick up their left over dry food to get them to feel the hungry sensation. We only feed a certain amount per day but we do leave it out in the morning if they have food left and we add to it in the evening so they are never totally without food. My husband is the one I am going to have to hit over the head about that.

But if I can get him to wet food you still think I should start insulin? This is what I am trying to figure out. What I think you are all saying is that I should not wait for the 2 week re-test but start him on insulin now. Is that right? Since we aren't home during the day will that be an issue?
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Given the numbers you provided over 300, I would recommend that insulin be started now, rather than 2 weeks from now.

While you may not be home during the day, many of us aren't, you can get in spot tests - before shooting insulin, when you get home, maybe 1 or 2 during evening and before bed. Then on weekends when you are home, you can do more tests and start collecting more data.


Also could his pain have anything to do with the numbers?
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It's possible, but I highly doubt it. There are supplements you can use for this, you were provided with some and there is also a couple "treat" type ones - happy hips by catswell and hip & joint something - by pet naturals of vermont.

I do not have a home test kit but I wouldn't mind getting one if I can learn how to test. That would be easier and cheaper than running back and forth to the vet.
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Yes it will. You can pick up an inexpensive one from Walmart - they sell Relion brand - many people here use it and find it works fine. Just make sure to get the strips that match the meter.

Personally, I use One Touch Ultra and the mini versions. Strips can be costly, but you can find bargains online.

Right now Harley is On EVO Herring & Salmon and it has 50% crude protein and 10% carbs.
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Assuming this is dry food. Sadly, you need to get him over to wet food.

Also, you may want to limit fish flavors to once or twice a week. As they have other issues associated with it.

Regarding insulin options, well you have several. Personally, I highly recommend using either of the L insulins (lantus or levemir). But do your research and decide for yourself. Go to the insulin forums and read the starred info, so you can learn about each insulin and which to choose.
 
OK, during lunch I didn't get a chance to go to Walmart but I did run by Walgreens. While I was there I checked on the price of Lantus insulin and of course I almost hyper ventilated! :o The vial of Lantus is 112.00 and from what I understand that lasts for about a month. Add to that the cost of syringes and other necessities and I realize this is going to be very stressful on the wallet.

I also called the Vet's office this afternoon to see what kind of tests they gave Harley to determine diabetes and the girl in the office told me that they had done a Chem 12 (not sure what that is) and a BG his was 443 and something about his sugar in the urine being over 2000. What does that mean? He does not have Ketones in his urine.

At this point my plan of action is to try to force the wet food change -gently but firmly. I am also willing to go with insulin but I need ideas on where I can get that cheaper and what brands I should ask for. People have mentioned Friskies here which is a LOT cheaper than the EVO but does it do the job as well and which of the Friskies are better if I should go that way. The EVO per can is almost 2.00 but it is a 13.2 oz can and the info as follows

Crude Protein (min) 9 %
Crude Fat (min) 10 %
Crude Fiber (max) 1 %
Moisture (max) 78 %
Ash (max) 1.91 %
Carbohydrates NFE (max) 0.46 %
Vitamin E (min) 100 IU/kg
Magnesium (max) 0.02 %
 
So they did not do a fructosamine, which is the best way to diagnose but given what you've described over the past months it is a good bet he's diabetic. Blood glucose levels are immediate; nondiabetic is 60-120, so he's high. Urine glucose just means that his blood glucose levels went over renal threshold since the last time he peed and that the kidneys filtered glucose out of his blood; renal threshold is around 270ish.

Lantus pens are much cheaper than the vial and you get much better value. Someone else here can tell you how to get them.

Food choice is individual. Friskies has more biproducts than EVO but is affordable and comes in reasonable sized cans. Lots of cats like fancy feast which has muscle meat and biproducts, but comes in tiny less affordable tins. Wellness is quality but higher in fat which isn't good for pancreatic cats...

please do buy ketostix from your pharmacy; they are cheap and every newly diagnosed diabetic is at risk, and you want to catch them early if they do develop.

Jen
 
To help with food transition, EVO has the lowest carbohydrate dry food I think. It contains 8% carbs, but any dry food is enough to increase blood sugar.

I used this food for a few months to transition my 4-cat household to all low carb canned food.

We now feed Wellness Turkey and Chicken canned food - 2 large (12.5oz) cans per day. Once in a while, we need to add a can of Fancy Feast to tide them over, but usually there is food in the bowls all day and night (1 large can in the morning, and one in the evening)

the canned EVO is fantastic food, but my cats decided it was too healthy and turned up their noses. -- This made me sad, because the EVO 95% meat flavors smelled good enough for ME to eat.

My cats are smaller than yours, so you would probably need to feed more. My 4 cats average about 10 pounds each and share 25 oz food per day.

RE: LANTUS -- get the prescription written for a 5-pack of 3ml cartridges for Insulin Pen plus 2 refills (1 year supply). You can use them with regular syringes, and each cartridge lasts for a month or so.

OR.... get Levemir instead (get same type of prescription: 5 pack of 3ml cartridges plus 1 refill) Levemir is less fragile than Lantus, but has most of the benefits of it. We are able to use one 3ml pen cartridge for 4 months. So... we sold 2 cartridges to someone here on FDMB that need some, and 3 cartridges will last us a year. (this depends on your dose of course -- tiggy gets 0.75 units BID)
 
Jen,
I think I have some keto sticks that I used myself once when I was on the Atkins diet, but how in the world do I catch the urine specimen? All my cats use the same boxes and generally not when I am looking. :?:
 
Catching them can be tricky...follow him when you do see him, or attract him but cleaning the box infront of him etc.....sounds hard but it really is important to try and do....
 
Other options than stalking the litter box - buy some aquarium gravel and put into litter box. Or a tiny bit of litter. Or put some saran wrap in his favorite area.
 
Hi Donna, you are making tracks today! Good for you!

The vial is the most expensive way to buy Lantus, though it does last longer than a month, while some can get as much as six months out of a vial, the norm, I think, is two or three months. But Lantus is also sold in cartridges or pens, they come in boxes of five and each cartridge has enough insulin for a month or a little more. The original outlay is more than the vial---shop around, prices do vary--but the monthly cost is reasonable. Just make sure your vet writes the prescription for the cartridges or pens and NOT the vial.

Free feeding wet food is easy and safe unless you have ants or other bugs or you live in tropical conditions. I simply leave food out all the time, if I'm going to be going out for a while I put a fresh can down as I walk out the door. It's not unusual for my cats to eat food that has been left out for 8-12 hours, Many here are uncomfortable with my system and they either use timed feeders or leave frozen food out to be consumed as it defrosts.

I'm glad you're going to switch Harley to canned food, but please take Dr. Lisa's advice and do it slowly. A sudden change is hard on a stubborn cat.

Congratulations on today's progress! You are a good sugarmom.
 
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