Newbie needing advice

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Yvette10

Yvette10

Member Since 2016
I'm very new at this. I've been trying to educate myself before I just starting asking a bunch of questions that I know are on here, but last night I posted on FB in a panic because my gut was telling me not to give my baby an insulin dose and I needed someone to agree with me. So thank you to those that were there for me last night!

A quick back story first.... our baby is 8 years old. She has been overweight for several years. She has always eaten dry food, expensive dry food, but now I know that is irrelevant. She has always grazed and her vet placed her on weight control food and a schedule. She never lost a ounce until she started losing weight drastically in December accompanied with the frequent urination and excessive drinking. I took her to the same vet and she tested at 500 plus on glucose and borderline on her kidney. Everything else looked fine. (He didn't give me a copy of her results). She weighed 13.5 pounds. He changed her to the Hill W/D dry food and 1 unit of Novolin N twice a day. He didn't tell me to give it to her every twelve hours. He just said 15 to 20 minutes after she eats - Which was once in the morning and evening and a bit to graze while we were at work.

She then went in for weekly visits. He checked her blood by cutting her nail to the quick. (Is this right?) The first week she lost a whole pound and stayed at 500 plus (Still didn't get a copy of the results). This day, she was left there all day and was caged next to a dog. He bumped her up to 2 units twice a day.

The following week, I decided I wasn't going to leave her there all day and just took her in 6 hours after her morning dose. Her results were in the 400s but her weight was back up. I took this as she wasn't as stressed like the previous week, but he still raised her dosage to 3 units twice a day.

The next week, I found this website and message board! We ran out of the dry food Friday night and the vet wasn't open over the weekend. I gave her the Hill wet food can. (I initially bought one can but never tried it.) I then bought a bunch of Fancy Fest classics and fed her 4 ounces in the morning and 4 ounces in the evening. She took to it easily, but it was because she would only give it to her on a very regular schedule. So on Monday, she tests at 113 after eating the wet for only two and a half days! However, she gained a few ounces. He told me to keep her at 3 units and keep feeding her the FF, he'll see me in two weeks now.

I came home and told my boyfriend and he looked really confused. Apparently, he never raised her dose to 3 units! (He gives her the morning dose and I give her the evening dose). So that whole last week she was getting 2 units in the morning and 3 units in the evening! So we decided together that we would give her 2.5 for the next two weeks since she tested good after her morning 2 unit dose. We also lowered her eating to 3 ounces in the morning at 6am and 3 ounces in the evening at 6pm. (I'm still not sure how much I should feed her)

So two weeks later, (last Monday), I take her in and she tested at 57! He says to keep her at 3 units twice a day and to keep feeding her the way I'm feeding her. I'm really confused at this point. I advised him that we already lowered her dosage to 2.5 because we messed up. I asked him if we should lower it again since she tested so low. He looked at me like I was crazy and told me that I was going to mess everything up that we've been working on. We went round and round but then settled on 2.5 units and to come back in a month.

So this week, I've continued the 2.5 12 hours apart and 3 ounces twice a day. We both work long hours but in the evening I started noticing her hiding under the bed more and just acting a bit lethargic. So I'm reading, reading and reading again. I decided to go buy a monitor yesterday - ReliOn Confirm and I tested her last night before she ate at 6pm. She tested at 72. I decided not to give her a dose. I checked her again two hours later. Her result was 76.

This morning we tested her before her breakfast and her result was 118. We didn't give her dose. I tested her again two hours later and she was at 117. I plan to test her again at 1pm since that will be the halfway point before dinner. I honestly don't know if I'm supposed to be testing her this many times without insulin.

Sorry, this is soooooooo long but any and all advice is requested!
 
Welcome.
The human insulin N/NPH is sometimes prescribed but only lasts 8-10 hours and is therefore not the best for most cats
Good insulins are the human Lantus and Levemir and the pet insulins ProZinc and BCP PZI. For those two human insulin it is best to get the 5 pack of 3 ml disposable pens via a 10 ml vial. Although per ml the vial is less expensive most cats will not use up a 10 ml vial before the insulin goes bad/becomes ineffective.
It is good/life saving that yu startd to home test. Most of us here test before each shot and periodically between shots. We record our reading and other info in a spreadsheet. See:
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/...te-a-ss-and-link-it-in-your-signature.130337/
As yo are finding out, a low-carb canned is best. No reason for a prescription food. Here is a list of commercial low-carb canned

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/shortcut-shopping-list-all-8-or-less-updated.117688/

You were right not to shot at the 72 and even the 118, those are non-diabetic BGs. I would continue to monitor before when a shot would be f=given and for now not giove insuli if BG is less than 200. As you get more information on how your cat (name and your name) responds to insulin you may be able to shoot at less than 200.
 
I'm not qualified to answer any dosage questions, since we have also just been recently diagnosed and getting a feel for a lot of different things. I can say with absolute certainty though that cutting an animals nail to the quick is NOT proper technique, nor is it humane. If you've ever accidentally bitten or cut your own nail down to the quick, you know how incredibly painful it is. Obtaining a blood sample for a glucose test is simply taking a tiny drop of blood from the edge of the cats warm ear using a small little lancet needle. I wouldn't be bringing my cat back to that doctor.
 
Welcome to the FDMB!! I'm glad you found your way over here from the Facebook group!!

First of all, I want to say you're doing very well by "following your gut"....We tell our new members not to shoot under 200 until you are home testing and have a little data on how your cat responds.

It sounds like the change to low carb food only is really making a big difference! It's not unusual for the blood glucose to drop 200 points or more just from the diet change and we have had a lot of cats able to go into remission just from the diet change

Since you didn't give insulin this morning, there's no chance she'll go too low today. I'd plan on testing about an hour before "usual" so you have some time to ask for opinions before shooting tonight. As Larry said above, Novolin really isn't a great insulin for cats...it tends to hit "hard and fast" so it IS important that your cat eats a good amount about 20-30 minutes before shooting so there's food on board before it "hits"

Next, clipping the nail is a barbaric way to get blood....and it hurts!! It won't take long before your cat is fighting you (or running away)! We use the edge of the ear....there are very few pain receptors there. Warming the ear first helps a lot. A small pill bottle filled with warm water or a small sock with some rice (microwave about 15 sec...check against wrist for temp) are handy ways to do that.

You'll need some lancets though (little sharp things you "poke" with). Get lower gauge lancets to start (like 25-28 gauge)....The higher numbers, like 31-33 make a smaller hole, so getting the "bigger" ones helps when you're new.

This is where you're aiming for...the "sweet spot"
sweet spot diagram.jpg


Don't want to overwhelm you too much for now, but it sounds like you've been lucky so far with your kitty....being very lethargic, acting "drunk" or very sleepy are symptoms of hypoglycemia. By home testing, you'll be keeping your kitty safe as well as getting her as healthy as possible.

Do you have any other questions for us?....and again, Welcome to the best place you never wanted to be!!!
 
Thank you for the advice!

I knew it was wrong that he obtained the blood sample from the nail! Now I feel horrible that I didn't question his technique.

I hope you didn't think I was obtaining my samples from the nail....I have been following the ear directions on here to get my samples. She has been fine with the pokes in the ear, but is scared of the monitor. I'm sure she is traumatized from the vet and associates the monitor with him. :(

I was about to check her again since it is the halfway point. But should I just wait until before dinner since she hasn't had an insulin dose today?
 
One thing that needs to be considered that your vet is not taking into account. If you are able to get your kitty on just wet food that can make the glucose levels drop quite a bit in some cats. Your vet...sorry to say...is giving very poor instructions about holding the higher dose when the numbers are that low. I won't even comment about cutting into the quick for blood testing :( :(

Thank goodness you are home testing!! Good luck with your testing and fingers crossed that the numbers stay in a good range for you. :bighug:
 
Yvette10 said:
I was about to check her again since it is the halfway point. But should I just wait until before dinner since she hasn't had an insulin dose today?
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Since she didn't have any insulin today, getting a mid-cycle really isn't going to tell us too much, but I'll be the last person to say there's such a thing as "too much data"

But I really think if you get a +11 (11 hours after her normal shot time this morning) that will give you some time to ask for opinions as to dose tonight.

One thing...you don't want her to eat for 2 hours before getting a "Pre-shot" test, so take her food up if there's any left down at that point.

Since you're using Novolin, it's important that she eat first though (before the actual shot) so you want to test first.....then feed about 20-30 minutes before the shot

Example for today only....Normal shot time is 7am/7pm.....take food up no later than about 4pm.....test at 6pm and post the number you get.....feed about 6:30-6:40 and actually shoot at 7pm

Usually you'd test immediately before feeding....so at 6:30-6:40, then feed and shoot at 7, but we want to have a little extra time to discuss dose tonight before it's too late and we're all in a hurry to try to figure out what to do
 
I can't help with dosing advice, but the best advice I can give you is to find another Vet asap. Your story gave me chills.
Thank goodness you found this site. The good people here will take good care of you and your furbaby.
When you post later, title your post with something like -need dosing advice right away- to get quicker responses.
 
I am semi new but wanted to say I tested a lot at the beginning. It sounds like you have a lot of wrinkles to iron out but when that's done the testing does decrease. I test in the ear. Practice makes perfect..You are doing a great job !!!
 
Yvette, I'm so glad to see that you are here and you're getting great advice. I have to echo the comments that I would be looking for a new vet if I were you. I would also get Sheba on a different insulin.

When our Evie was diagnosed she was over 500 BG, DKA (Diabetic Ketoacidosis) and spent 3 days in the hospital - she came very close to dying. When we brought her home, she was on Lantus and we switched her to all canned food (low carb/high protein). 4 days later she was in remission - it can happen that fast.

I'm so glad you are home testing - it most likely saved Sheba's life.

Take care,
Jeanette
 
Did I read your post correctly. You are feeding only 3 oz every 12 hrs? Is it possible to give more, spread it out and fed more often?
 
Woodsywife said:
Did I read your post correctly. You are feeding only 3 oz every 12 hrs? Is it possible to give more, spread it out and fed more often?
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Yes, I thought that was low too. We started at 4 ounces twice a day but she wouldn't eat it all, so we went down to 3 ounces. I've always been a dry food feeder and she is overweight (13.5) so my vet told me this was right. Plus, he told me to feed her, give her shot and then not let her eat anymore until her next dose. Of course now I'm completely second guessing everything he told me.
 
Yvette10 said:
Yes, I thought that was low too. We started at 4 ounces twice a day but she wouldn't eat it all, so we went down to 3 ounces. I've always been a dry food feeder and she is overweight (13.5) so my vet told me this was right. Plus, he told me to feed her, give her shot and then not let her eat anymore until her next dose. Of course now I'm completely second guessing everything he told me.
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I would try feeding every 6 hrs. She looks to be a large breed. Sort of a colorful Smokey (grey one in pic) who is 16-17 lbs. I would split the amount into more feedings. I certainly eat more than every 12 hrs. Diabetics whether human or pet need to eat frequently.

Maybe someone here can figure out how many calories she should get? Smokey is getting 9-10 oz a day. Being fed every 3 hours otherwise he will vomit. Auto feeder helps during the night and day when I work.

I do think more food is needed and more often.
 
I'm new here too, so I don't have any advice, but some of our stories are kind of similar! Our kitty is also 8 and was on a weight control food to lose weight. We were going in regularly for weight checks and when he started losing too much too fast we tested for diabetes. We were then prescribed insulin and W/D

Welcome to the board :)
 
Your story sounds like mine! My vet cut both my babies claws, made me sick to my stomach every time he did it. They also had me feeding prescription w/d and buzz was on 3 units, but they had my Woody up to 13!!! They also didn't want me home testing and frowned and ignored me when I asked questions about diet or monitoring them. You are way ahead of me because I didn't get my fur babies off w/d until a month after Woody was diagnosed (I hadn't found this board, but started looking for help when both my kitty's started hypoing 1 to 3 times a week, just from clinical signs)

After I started home testing I was able to move them to canned w/d. They both went hypo on me!!!! (The vet told me to keep the dry out for that reason!!! Not to reduce the dosage!) I started reducing the insulin units and when Buzz was under 200 for 24 hours I switched him to 100% friskies pate. He went OTJ (off the juice) a few days later. His spreadsheet is the second one!

If you look at Woody's spreadsheet(the first one) you will notice I kept halving his dose until he's also OTJ. He's not as stable as Buzz, but his highest reading has been 180 something. I still test twice a day to make sure he's stabilizing.

What I want to suggest is maybe just getting your kitty of the dry w/d may have been the only thing you need.

I had to go look where you were from because your vet sounded exactly like mine, I thought we lived in the same town!!! Good luck and DO NOT SHOOT if that reading is under 200!! If you do shoot when the reading is over 200 do you have a hypo kit? Karo syrup, high carb treats? If this were my kitty I would wait and home test until those numbers started creeping back up!

Also, my fur babies are 13 and 14 and they weigh around 13 lbs. I feed them 6 oz of friskies divided into 4 times a day.
 
Oh wow, thanks for sharing. It really is mind blowing how I was oblivious to all this unit a few weeks ago.... And I've been a cat owner all my life! I'm going to look at your spreadsheets because I need to complete mine.

I have honey on stock, but I didn't even think about just getting high carb treats just in case. I will definitely do that now.
 
It's mind blowing to me that I kept shooting insulin into my kitties when looking back the spreadsheet was telling me not to. The nice people on this board, @manxcat419 @MrWorfMen's Mom and @Critter Mom saved my kitty's lives but they also were very nice even when I was stumbling along! I may currently have kittys in remission, but this board holds my heart because my fur babies are alive and healthy!
 
Trust me, so many of us arrive here with a brand new diagnosis and knowing nothing at all about how to keep our cats safe! We all remember that feeling of stumbling in the dark trying to figure out what to do for the best for our babies. And helping is what we do. My Rosa, too, is in remission and I've taken breaks from the board since then, especially after she was diagnosed with CKD and I had a whole new learning curve to get to grips with. But, like you, this board and the people and cats here have become like family to me and I love being able to help. :)
 
Yvette10 said:
I have honey on stock, but I didn't even think about just getting high carb treats just in case. I will definitely do that now.
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Best thing to always keep in your "hypo kit" are a few cans of Fancy Feast Gravy Lovers foods....they are high carb and don't wear off as quickly as the simple sugars like Karo do.

What we do is pop the top and then put it back on the can and "squeeze" the gravy into another bowl. A teaspoon or two of just the gravy (since that's where most of the carbs are) is usually enough to bring them back up....and if not, we can always add a drop or two of Karo to the gravy!

Using dry treats takes too long to break down and get into the bloodstream and take too long to work their way out again....the gravy or karo act quicker and don't "hang around" longer than we want them too
 
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