Newbie help please!

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Beeperboy

Member Since 2013
Hello all. I am new to the feline diabetes world and have a few questions I am hoping someone can help me with. So first my 8yr old baby has recently been diagnosed with diabetes and put on PZI twice a day @ 2cc per shot. I have also started home testing and my main question is this. I am getting steady bg levels around 250 give or take a few. Ie: 253,254,256. can anyone tell me if this is good or should I see about increasing his dosage? He has been on insulin for about 2-3 weeks now and I am not seeing a huge improvement aside from less water intake. His weight is still flux and he is still not walking properly all the time. His appetite is good and has not changed but I am very worried. I can't afford more vet visits at this time and my vet does not seem happy about my home testing or home managing anything... So I know an ask / advise call is not going to happen. So I again am hoping to find help here. Any advise would be most appreciated!
Thank You!
Eric & Beep
 
Hello Eric and Beep, and welcome to FDMB!

First off, kudos to you for already having started to hometest! I have a feeling your cat is in good hands. And the good news is that feline diabetes is a home-managed disease. Most of us here just take our cats to the vet for check-ups and for things not related to the diabetes. :smile:

The blood glucose numbers you're seeing really aren't bad for a newly diagnosed diabetic. When exactly are you testing him? We recommend testing before every insulin shot and also doing spot checks at various other times (and especially at the peak of the insulin cycle, maybe between 5 - 6 hours after the shot) to see how low the insulin is dropping the cat's blood glucose, and how long it lasts in the cat's system. It may be that you need more data about how the insulin is affecting Beep before deciding to alter the dose.

If Beep is having problems with back leg weakness then it is likely that he has diabetic neuropathy (there are other causes of back leg weakness but neuropathy is statistically the most likely). If so, a methyl B12 supplement could really help with that.

Re the insulin, I'm guessing that when you say "2cc" you actually mean '2 units'?

What are you feeding Beep at the moment?

Elizabeth
 
Welcome to the FDMB! We have a lot of knowledgeable people here and can answer most questions you might have.

I always like to know who I am talking to so thank you for giving us your name Eric.

Elizabeth has covered what I would say.

You are seeing one improvement, Beep is drinking less water. Are the size of the pee patches smaller now then they had been before you started giving Beep insulin?

Other good signs are
1. a good appetite but not as ravenous
2. fur coat looking better, shinier. Not as much dandruff
3. acting like his old self

We have a check we can do every day to see how our cats are doing. It's called the WCR or whole cat report. Appetite in combination with the presence of the 5 P's, peeing, pooping, playing, preening, purring tell us how a cat is feeling. Diabetes management is more than just the BG numbers.

Ask all the questions you need to. We will answer them to the best of our abilities.
 
Hello Elizabeth. Thank you for the reply and kind words:) I am trying to deal with this as best I can! Lol! But it's been pretty damn hard so far! Lol! Beeps is a classic gray French Chateaux and normally a very jumpy boy! He loves to leap up on you and since all this started he has missed so many jumps that he just does not even attempt it anymore. Don't think I have cried so much in years! Lol! It's hard to watch him and know that he does not understand what's wrong. But my goal is get him back to as healthy as I can as soon as I can!:) so for now I'm carrying him around a lot. Anyway here is where I'm at.
I am testing @ 6:30am then the shot and food. He is on Fancy Feast wet. Food is down all day. Next test,shot food @ 6:30pm and yes 2 units not cc. Sorry. I am not testing in between because I am not home during the day but I can start this on weekends and around midnight. He seems fine with the effects for the most part. No sluggishness or anything unusual. I am most concerned about his legs. You had mentioned B-12 supplement to help. Can you please explain this to me? It's horrible seeing him struggle. As for his numbers, I read a lot of different things online about where he should be at so I am glad to hear that the 250 range is ok for now. Should I be looking at getting him down lower? A better diet? Again, my vet is being less than helpful here... I look forward to your reply and thank you again!
E.
 
Which Fancy Feast? The classic pate style? A change might make a big difference

What insulin are you using? I think you left it out of your reply or I could not see it for some reason.
 
High glucose levels cause nerve and organ damage. The nerve damage is most prevalent in the back legs of a cat. It can be improved greatly. Getting the BG numbers under control and supplementing with methylcobalamin can help to improve the neuropathy and jumping ability.

My cat Wink had severe neuropathy when picked up from the shelter. Rapid improvement seen as his BG numbers were not only regulated, but fell into normal non-diabetic numbers.

He could barely walk, stopped every 3-5 steps to rest because it HURTS, could not jump, trouble climbing the stairs. Now, you would barely notice he had a problem. Walking mostly on his tip toes, jumping everywhere and getting into everything.

The only part I dislike about his new found jumping abilities is when he jumps up on the kitchen island counter when I have the gas stove running. I'm afraid he's going to burn himself one day. :-x I'll take the improvement any day over how he was before. I just keep a close eye out and grab him when he jumps up on the counter and give him a safe ride to the floor.
 
Unfortunately, those Fancy Feast Grilled style foods are 13% to 18% carbs, too high for a diabetic cat. Is it the chunky texture he likes more? or the gravy?

The Fancy Feast flaked or chunky styles are under 10% carbs. You might want to try those styles.

Another idea that has been used here is to transition from one food to another by slowly mixing small amounts of the new food into the old. For example,

Day 1. mix 1 teaspoon of the pate into the grilled. Remove 1 teaspoon of the grilled before you mix the two together.
Day 2. mix 2 teaspoons of the pate into the grilled, and give 2 teaspoons less of the grilled.
Day 3. mix 3 teaspoons of the pate into the grilled, and give 3 teaspoons less of the grilled.
Day 4. mix 4 teaspoons of the pate into the grilled, removing equivalent amount from the grilled first.
repeat. until the switch is complete.

There may be some backsliding on the amount of grilled/pate you mix. One of our members took about a month to get her cat entirely over to the pate.

You need to be home testing before you make the food switch or cut the insulin dose in half to keep the BG (blood glucose) numbers from going too low.
 
Welcome Eric and Beep!

I'm with Deb - try mixing the foods because the pate will give you lower numbers than the grilled. Sometimes you can add warm water to the pates and make a gravy and they will decide they like it.

Your preshot numbers are pretty good. Yes, the midcycle numbers will fill out the picture and let you see how the insulin is working and how low it takes him midcycle. So any numbers in that 5-7 range will be helpful.

Here is a big document on PZI:

http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=32799
 
You could also try these fancy feast below. Not all are pates...


carbs in % . .
4% - fancy feast CLASSICS chicken feast- 546 - beware of those that are not classics ...
4%- fancy feast chopped grilled feast pate
2%- fancy feast cod, sole & shrimp feast pate
4%- fancy feast Ocean Whitefish and tuna pate
1% -fancy feast Savory Salmon feast pate
5% -fancy feast Tender beef feast pate
5% -fancy feast Tender beef and chicken feast pate
5% - fancy feast Tender beef and liver feast pate
4% -fancy feast Tender liver and chicken feast pate
3% - fancy feast Turkey & giblets feast pate
5% -fancy feast salmon and shrimp feast
4% -fancy feast kitten tender turkey feast
5% - fancy feast kitten tender ocean whitefish feast
5% -fancy feast chunky chicken feast
7% - fancy feast chunky turkey feast
7% -fancy feast chunky chopped grill feast
8% - fancy feast Flaked chicken and tuna feast
0% - fancy feast Flaked fish and shrimp feast
8% - fancy feast Flaked Salmon and whitefish feast
7% - fancy feast Flaked Trout feast
 
Regarding the walking problem - it very possibly could be diabetic neuropathy and the best way to treat it is adding Methylcobalamin B12 supplement to his food.

You can purchase the cat version:

http://www.ilifelink.com/zobaline-for_d ... blets.html

Or a human version:

http://www.vitacost.com/vitacost-vitami ... 0-capsules


Whether you get cat or human version, be sure the B12 is methlycobalamin only as the other forms of B12 don't work for this and that there isn't any sugar, xylotol in the product.

To give -

Empty one capsule (or melt one tablet in water) and add to wet food.

1 (3-5 mg) capsule/tablet once a day should be enough.

If you have other cats, it is ok if they eat this, what the body doesn't need it will be pee out.
 
I can't thank you all enough for the help!!! I am feeling much more confident now than I was this morning! As far as his food gos, sorry lil buddy but this is for your own good! He's picky but he will eat it when he's hungry;) and I am going out to the health food store now to get the b-12! I will keep you all posted on his progress and thank you thank you thank you again for all your help with my baby!
Best Regards,
Eric & Beep.
 
Pick up a selection of the fancy feasts (low carb ones above) and see which ones he likes. You can also try Friskies pates and wellness grain free.

Also make sure its the Methylcobalamin form of B12 and that the pills dont have sugar or xylitol which is toxic to cats.
 
Eric, just want to add a piece of advice.....test always before shooting insulin BUT best way is to test, then feed to make sure Beep wants to eat, then shoot. If he is chowing down just fine, then you can shoot while he is eating. There are times with some cats that if you shoot first and they decide they don't want to eat, then you end up trying to get them to eat. Once in, insulin cannot be taken out so always safer to make sure kitty wants to eat.
 
Hey all, I have a quick question! I just put down beeps food and tested before shooting of course and he is reading 132. So I tested again about 1 min later and it was 150. His norm has been in the 250s. So now I don't know what to do! Do I give him his full shot? Or 1/2 or nothing or what??? It is already 1hr behind schedule! Sorry for this but as I just read, you can't take insulin out once its in! So I am just being extra careful! I hope someone can advise me soon! I will check the bord every few min. until I hear from someone.
Thank you all again so much!
E.
 
I just posted this in another persons thread about 15 minutes ago so I am copying it here for expediency.

Deb & Wink said:
You have several choices.

1. Skip the shot. This is the safest. Your cat will not have their BG level drop too low with possibly too much insulin.

2. Give a reduced dose. Perhaps half of your cats normal dose. You should still monitor closely with home testing to know how your cat is doing.

4. Stall the shot. By this we mean, test, do not feed, do not give the insulin yet. Test again in 30 minutes. If the BG number is now over 200, it will be safe to give the insulin and feed.

If the BG is still below 200, wait another 30 minutes without feeding and retest. Over 200? then feed and shoot.
Under 200 delay food and insulin again.

You will reach a point in this stalling method where the BG number is either high enough to shoot or too low to shoot and you will need to skip the shot for safety.

It is easier to know what you should do if your cat is low once you have done some testing and gathered more data on how YOUR cat reacts. Every cat is different.

You can always post on here and ask for assistance. We will give you recommendations based on your spreadsheet and the numbers that you have gathered in testing. If you do not have enough tests yet, we will tell you to skip the shot.
Click to expand...

You do not have a spreadsheet yet or much data. You already fed so any test numbers you get will be food influenced. Please,skip the shot for tonight.

Tomorrow is another day. "Better too high for a day than too low for a minute."

P.s. Suggest you remove your phone number. This is a very public board.
 
Ok I will skip tonight then. Should I test around midnight just to see? And if I do and it is over 200 do I give a 1/2 shot and then another 1/2 @ normal 6:30am? I am so worried now! Sorry but this is the first time his bg has been this low and I don't want to mess up or put him in danger by skipping.
And my message has been edited. Thank you!
 
Ok Eric, There are a couple of things I'd like you to do. I usually wait a few days, but because of those low pre-shot tests you got , you need to do a couple of things.

1. Would you please provide us with some more information and put this in your user control panel? It helps us to help you better.

Go to the upper left corner of your screen and click on the words, User Control Panel
On the next screen, a row of tabs is presented. Select the Profile tab
On the next screen, there are a number of choices along the left hand side. Select Edit Signature
A free form text box appears.
We like to see information like your name, your cats name age and sex, the diagnosis date for the diabetes (DX 4/30/13), what meter you are using for testing, what insulin you are using , what you are feeding (wet or dry, what brands/style of food), any complicating health issues your cat may have, any additional medications your cat is receiving.

Click on submit to save this information. Now, this will appear at the end of every post you make. You can update the info when you need to.

Think of this as having some very useful information at our finger tips for those that are replying to your posts.

Would you please do those updates when you get a chance? Thanks.

2. We need you to create a spreadsheet and link it into your signature. Directions here: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=18207 This is a nice, color coded spreadsheet where we track the insulin dosages, the BG test results, food given, anything else that is useful to track. You will need a google account to create and update this. There are people here that can help you with the spreadsheet if you have problems or need assistance.

There are people here that can look at this spreadsheet (SS) and tell what is going on and suggest changes. Until we can see that data, it's almost impossible to tell you what to do.
 
If the numbers rise above 200, you can give the normal dose of PZI. That time is zero hour. You can dose PZI again as long as it has been a minimum of 10 hours from the last shot and the numbers are high enough. You can continue to get more tests, to see if Beep's numbers keep rising. Sometimes this can happen quickly so you may want to test 30 minutes from your last test and then in another 30 minutes.

Since these numbers will be food influenced, I would not recommend giving any insulin unless the numbers are above 250.

Also, if you shift your shot time later tonight, you need to think about whether you will be home tomorrow 10 hours (+10) after tonight's shot time.

There is more danger in the numbers being too low. Hypos can kill, and quickly. High numbers do damage over the long term. While not good, they are not as scary as low numbers.
 
With the new diet and b-12 he has been staying under 200 for 3 days now. Average of 160. He is drinking normally and normal amounts. He is bright eyed, alert and no more wobble walk or sluggishness. Still skinny but Stable and i assume the new low carb diet is keeping the weight off as well. So for now I am just monitoring and testing but not giving insulin.
Thanks for asking:)
 
Average cats are 50-130. 160 is a little high but I would be reluctant to give insulin at those low levels since you don't have that much experience.

Try giving him frequent small meals instead of a few big ones, and maybe we can stimulate his pancreas a bit.

What's the carb % in the food you are feeding?
 
I am feeding him fancy feast classics as recommended and food is down 24hrs for him. I mix it with about 2 teaspoons of water to keep it moist and put down fresh when it is gone.
 
Nope. No dry and no dry treats! I will keep testing and watching. If they don't come down by the end of next week I will adjust his insulin starting at 1/2 unit.
 
If you pick up some urine test strips for ketones and glucose, that will provide rough data to help evaluate progress, too.

Ketones are a by-product of fat breakdown for calories. Too many ketones may indicate diabetic ketoacidosis, a potentially fatal, expensive to treat, complication of diabetes.

Glucose in the urine means that the renal threshold has been exceeded since the last void.

Tips for urine testing are in my signature link Secondary Monitoring Tools.
 
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