Newbie help, concerned Father here

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PookyDaddy

Member Since 2013
Hello everyone. My name is Glenn, my furry son's name is Pooky. He was diagnosed with Diabetes last year around this time, he had all the symptoms: weight loss, high water consumption and urination till the box was floating away. His sugar initially was over 400 which by January he was down under the 200 mark i believe 180 or 190 at 3u 2x a day. We immediately started him on fancy feast classic and it has been his staple ever since with the occasional jerky style low carb fish/chicken treats when we can find them. I am ashamed to say we just now started testing, and please i know we should have all along. We test on the weekends, at 6 hours past his first shot he usually comes in around the 90s. My wife does his first shot and i do the evening, we shoot him then feed. However just recently he started not finishing all of his plate between shots to the point we went down to 1 can morning/1 can evening, then he started eating 2 cans/2x a day again i would say this has happened a few times in the last year. Well as of Tuesday he will not eat all or hardly any of his food. He licks around the plate and eats some pieces off the sides and walks away. However his jerky treats he will eat no problem. We tried some canned tuna which same thing, licked the juice and took some bites and that was it. I am always over analyzing him and thinking he feels "boney" because of how he was when he was first diagnosed. At his fighting weight he usually is around 15lbs he is a solid big boy who isnt fat at all. He went down to about 7-8lbs at first then gained all his weight back. I need to weigh him tonight and see where he is at weight wise. We did not give an AM shot yesterday however i gave the normal 3u for PM because he looked like he was going to eat all of his food, which he didnt. My wife this morning gave him half the normal dose and i am going home in about 30mins to check on him and see if he ate anymore and test him. We have called the Vet which they did not seem alarmed and want us to come in Monday afternoon, however we are freaking out. I am not sure if its a matter that his pancreas is trying to work again and the 3u are hurting him and making him not want to eat, if he has something else wrong, if he just might not feel good (has had a dry nose last two days), hates the food all of a sudden. No idea.

I love my little big guy to death. I was never a cat person until him and now i'm wrapped around his paw. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.
 
How does Pooky act/urinate/defecate? Any change in behavior?
If not really eating I would not wait until Monday.
How old is Pooky?
Some of my cats have not been eating much and I syringe fed them.

And, BTW, welcome.
 
Did you recently change foods? (i am thinking he doesn't like the new flavor?). Is his tummy sore when you pick him up? (one of the signs of pancreatitis, which your vet can test for.)

What kind of insulin? it is quite a big dose. Most cats, but not all, on this site take in the 1 unit range. Any chance he is dropping too low between shots? As you now know, you should get a test before each shot and midcycle, to see how low it takes him.
 
Just got back from testing him and going by the 8% chart i found i picked him up some new flavors. I tested him at exactly 6 hours after first shot and he was to me very low at 43. I am going to test again at his PM time and if its still low i will not give any insulin. Could the low blood sugar cause him to not want to eat? He ate a few bites of the new flavor and some from my hand once he stopped but that was it, he even turned his nose up to a little Milk in a dish which i try to not ever give him. He is alert and everything else is normal just not eating, no change in his bathroom habits. No sore spots. I even gave him some of the jerky treats which he would chew for a few seconds then drop. If he had a bad tooth i would expect he would make a noise or something or cringe but none of that.
 
PookyDaddy,

Hi and welcome. When did you get that low 43 number? Just now?

ETA: Sorry, I see you tested at 6hrs after shot.
 
Welcome to FDMB.

What insulin are you using?

He's earned a reduction in dose with that 43 mg/dL!!! Next dose should be 0.25 units lower. You'll have to eyeball it, as syringes don't mark quarter units, only half units.

And now that you're testing:

Here are some glucose reference ranges used for decision making using glucometers. Human glucometer numbers are given first. Numbers in parentheses are for non-US meters. Numbers in curly braces are estimates for an AlphaTrak.

< 40 mg/dL (2.2 mmol/L) {< 70 mg/dL for an AlphaTrak}
- Treat as if HYPO if on insulin
- At nadir (lowest point between shots) in a long term diabetic (more than a year), may earn a reduction.

< 50 mg/dL (2.8 mmol/L) {< 80 mg/dL for an AlphaTrak}
- If before nadir, steer with food, ie, give modest amounts of medium carb food to keep from going below 50 (2.8).
- At nadir, often indicates dose reduction is earned.

50 - 130 mg/dL (2.8 - 7.2 mmol/L) {80 - 160 mg/dL for an AlphaTrak}
- On insulin - great control when following a tight regulation protocol.
- Off insulin - normal numbers. (May even go as low as the upper 30s (1.7 mmol/L){60s for an AlphaTrak}; if not on insulin, this can be safe.

= 150 mg/dL (8.3 mmol/L) {> 180 mg/dL for an AlphaTrak}
- the lowest level pre-shot for ProZinc, PZI, or other non-depot insulins.

> 150 mg/dL (8.3 mmol/L) {> 180 mg/dL for an AlphaTrak}
- At nadir, indicates a dose increase may be needed when following a tight regulation protocol.

200 mg/dL (11.1 mmol/L) {230 mg/dL for an AlphaTrak}
- no shot level for beginners; may slowly reduce to 150 mg/dL (8.3 mmol/L) {180 mg/dL} for long-acting insulins (Lantus, Levemir, and ProZinc) as mid-cycle data collection shows it is safe

180 - 280 mg/dL (10 - 15.6 mmol/L) {may be 210 - 310 mg/dL for an AlphaTrak}
- Any time - The renal threshold (depending on data source and cat's renal function) where glucose spills into the urine.
- Test for ketones, glucose is too high.

>= 280 mg/dL (15.6 mmol/L) {may be >=310 mf/dL for an AlphaTrak}, if for most of the cycle between shots
- Uncontrolled diabetes and thus at risk for diabetic ketoacidosis and hepatic lipidosis
- Follow your insulin protocol for dose adjustments
- Test for ketones; if more than a trace level of ketones, go to vet ASAP.
 
Was able to leave and tested again at 130. His sugar is at 70 now. We got absolutely no help when made call back to the Vet. The nurses solution was to get him to eat (like we havent been trying) and to not stop giving the insulin. Per the doctors instructions we were to give him a half dose if he stopped eating, i found the original take home sheets when he was diagnosed. Should we go .25 lower on his PM shot, and that being half of the 3u we normally were giving?

He is watching for those darn birdies that keep flying outside his house all day right now. keeping my eye on him
 
Hi Glenn,

I thought I'd copy and paste some helpful tips people had given me here when my guy wasn't eating:

From BJM:

Warm up the food to "fresh killed" temperature; it'll smell more, which may trigger appetite.
Sprinkle with Forti Flora, or grated parmesan, or dried fish flakes (try an Asian market).
Do some active play to trigger the hunt, catch, kill, eat behavior cycle.
Offer the food on your finger, it must taste better that way (right?)
Pick up the plate, stir the food around, and put it back down. Voila! Its new food.

Here are some other tips to entice a cat to eat:


viewtopic.php?f=28&t=85125#p913074
 
I tried the warming up and it got about 3-4 good lick/bitefuls before he stopped. I just dont know what to do. I guess i could try one of each can i bought at lunch to see what will trigger him eating.
 
Tried a different flavor/brand and he seemed to really want it, laid it down for him he ate a few good bites then "covered" his food. Which is what we call it when he paws at the wall next to his food, which i always take to mean he likes it and he is saving it for later. He did not do that with the 3 others ive tried today.
 
Well, that seems like a good sign he likes it.

The vet said nothing about the not eating?

One thing I did with Pasquale is feed him baby food. Beechnut chicken flavor. Here's what they say about giving baby food:

•baby food -- beechnut or Gerber Stage 2 -- you want a baby food that is only a protein + broth (although the Gerber contains cornstarch). It should have no onions or other additives. some babyfoods have onions . please read labels if you can't find beechnut.


I also gave him cooked chicken (nothing added) when he had trouble.
 
Several issues here, Glynn: insulin and inappetite. Novalin is not a popular insulin on this site.It is harsher than Lantus, Levemir or ProZinc and tends to give sharp drops and not last 10-12 hours like other insulins do. so the insulin may be messing with his appetite. It is important that he eats, even if just a few bites at a time. Sometime Parmesan cheese sprinkled on top works (don't know why). Did you recently change from dry to wet? If so, and if he really liked the dry, you might chop up a teaspoon and sprinkle it on.

But for now, I would drop the dose back down to one unit, get numbers to see how and how long it is working for him and increase slowly if and as you need to. The low number you caught (43) means the dose is too high, especially combined with the his inappetite. If the insulin is making him go low and then he bounces back up again, that can make him feel crummy and not want to eat.
 
I am concerned his dose is too high and he may be coming close to a hypoglycemic episode each time you shoot the Novolin at that dose. Do you have Karo syrup or honey available?

Just got back from testing him and going by the 8% chart i found i picked him up some new flavors. I tested him at exactly 6 hours after first shot and he was to me very low at 43.
Click to expand...

That may explain it - when you change food from higher carb to lower carb, you often need to cut way back on the insulin dose because of the change in the carb level.

As an FYI, Novolin only lasts 6-8 hours in the cat. The lowest point is likely to be around 3-4 hours after a shot.


Another possibility is that he may have inflammation of the pancreas - pancreatitis - and doesn't feel good, so he's not eating.
 
He is behind me now napping, likes to slide down behind my back when im in my office chair and nap.

He has been on the classic FF wet for almost a year now. We have never adjusted his shot dosage before but we are now. I am going to retest before what would be his normal PM time, try to get him to eat a little more and go from there.
 
OK.

Keep an eye on the food consumption - it could be he doesn't need as much, or that he isn't feeling well - hard to tell.

He should eat 30 minutes before giving the Novolin, too, so the food is coming on board when the insulin is.

Here is a link to how to best use novolin/humulin/etc.
 
Retested at shot time and it had went down to 60. my wife picked up a bag of natures variety dry, just to try something. he ate about half maybe a bit more of the 3/4 cup recommended amount. i am going to recheck him in about an hour and see where he is at and not give any insulin tonight.
 
If he was 67 at shot time, definitely skip AND I'd drop the dose when you do shot, maybe even 0.5 units to 1.0 units lower.
 
I would not shoot at all if he is under 150.

I would only shoot if he is over 150 and eating... And then at a much lower dose as BJ said. Give the new dose a few days and see how it does, and drop the dose if he goes under 50 again.

You might also want to look into a better insulin like lantus, levemir or prozinc.

Wendy
 
Hey, how is Pooky doing today? I'm curious as my cat is also lost her appetite yesterday too.
 
Hello all. Ran out of test strips this morning so tested a little while ago. His number was 67. He has now been off insulin for 36 hours and that was a 1.5u dose. More alarming is he has not urinated much in the past 48. We have monitored his box and he has a few clumps but not normal. However as I said he has barely been eating. We were able to get him to eat a half a cup of dry last night. Nothing more over night and today I haven't noticed the wet or dry amounts dwindle much at all. He did just now walk over and eat a few good bites of wet. He is not showing any of the signs of kidney problems or UTI. Could the low sugar cause the lack of urination too?
 
Decreases in thirst and urination happen as the glucose becomes controlled.

About 1/2 cup of clumped litter per day appraches normal for non-diabetic cats, especially those getting most of the moisture from food.
 
About one 5 to 6 oz can of food per day will feed a non-diabetic cat of about 6 to 8 lbs. Best split into 2 or more meals so it doesn't tax the pancreas. If he won't eat enough, you may need to assist feed and he may have another issue like pancreatitis that could need treating.

Also, if he won't eat for you, you should test for ketones in the urine. See my signature link Secondary Monitoring Tools for tips. And smell his breath (not foolproof); if he smells like nail polish remover or fruity, that is likely the smell of ketones and he needs to see a vet asap.

Check for dehydration:
1) Gently pull up the fur at the scruff, then release. If it does not snap back quickly, ie is tented, he is moderately to severely dehydrated.
2) Press a finger on the gums, if he'll let you, then release. If it pinks right back up, he's doing well. If it stays blanched/whitish, he may be mildly to severely dehydrated, depending on how long it takes to pink back up.
 
Did you change his food recently? Maybe he doesnt like the new stuff? Try his old food again if thats the case. Its good that he has normal blood sugar without insulin but I dont like the fact he isnt eating.

Otherwise here are some tips to get him to eat(scroll down) : https://docs.google.com/document/d/1NSWUx2ak7wcs2_G5TXr7BhPMrU7CVmW_3ouKPTUQhhA/pub

What kind of dry food is it? he might not need that many calories if you are giving dry but if you can tell us what kind of food, and his weight is, we should be able to work out how much he needs to eat (although we dont want him on dry much longer once he starts eating properly, as it will likely cause his blood sugar to rise again.)

Wendy
 
Had to work yesterday but wanted to report he is eating again. Not as much as before when on the insulin but more of what he did pre-diabetes. We have been testing morning noon and night and his numbers seems to be staying in the 50 - 72 range. With no spikes. And this is 72 hours with no shot. Bathroom is normal now and actually more like BJM said with cups of clump not large clumps. Having some trouble getting him to hold still sometimes for the ear poke , was wondering if anyone had any tips on how to make the task less stressful for him. Thank you sooooo much for all the advise. He has an appointment tomorrow with his doctor.
 
Using a low carb treat after the poke may help.

Another option for doing testing and shots is the Burrito wrap.

Burrito wrap:
Place towel on floor.
Place cat halfway between the ends.
Wrap each end around the cat, including paws.
Additional restraint may be done by kneeling straddled over the cat and compressing your thighs along the cat's body and slightly sitting over the cat to reduce upward motion.

Test from there.
 
Glad to hear Pooky has started eating more.

I put some uncooked minute rice in a sock (baby size) and heat that in the microwave for 25 seconds and place it on the back of my guy's ear and poke from the front. 1. to warm up the ear - easier to get a blood drop 2. instead of holding the ear in my hand and poking myself 3. I think it feels better for him.

I was very lucky with Pasquale, he is really good about the ear poking. I used the lancet spring pen that came with the Relion confirm. Tried it on myself to get an idea how it feels. Not bad. It works better for some people here to free hand poke, but I think I'd have a hard time doing it that way. If you use the pen, you may have to get him used to the clicky sound of it. Mine was pretty quiet anyway and using the sock & rice kind of muffles it more. Get the sweet spot, stay away from the vein- that hurts them.

Every cat reacts differently- he actually was more scared / nervous when I straddled him and it actually works better when I crouch in front of him, pet him and coo over him while I do it. Some cats you have no choice but to straddle or burrito wrap.

Pasquale always gets a pice of cooked chicken every time and now associates it with a reward, so giving Pooky something he likes, every time can really help. Yesterday, I just took my meter out of its case to show my mother. He came running over when he heard the zip of the case, even though I wasn't going to test him :) Hi Mama, I'm here for my test. Where's my chicken?

Always a dab of Neosporin afterward (that has the pain relief in it) to keep his ears from getting infected / sore.

Hope this helps :)
 
Thats great he is eating again. Also if he can sustain 50-130 for 14 days then we consider him to be in remission. To help his pancreas with this you want to feed frequent mini meals instead of bigger ones. And no high carb dry at all - not even treats.

let us know how he gets on

Wendy
 
Hello all. Pooks sugar is staying in the high 50-70s range on our human meter which vet said to add 40-50 points to it to get actual sugar lvl. So that's great. However just this weekend he has started vomiting white foam a few times a day and not eating hardly at all, which I attribute to the upset belly. His Vet is worthless, charged us 100 for visit and "blood work" which was a human meter test, I had to ask 3x for his weight to be checked and when the doc came in he never took him out of the crate. Instead he spent 40 mins flirting with my wife and lecturing me on weight. So before I lost control I thanked him, we paid and left. We are taking him today to a new vet that's highly recommended that actually likes cats, found out after the fact our old vet hates cats... :evil:

So will update tonight with our news. Please pray for us that it's nothing serious.
 
There are some vet interview topics in my signature link which help you evaluate if the vet will be a good fit with you and your diabetic kitty.
 
Well sugar is staying perfect still...woohoo. And 481 later, he is eating again. I guess to cure a upset tummy it's just 481. Lol. He is well worth it though. All tests came back negative. Some crystalsin urine but she wasn't overly concerned right now. Love the new Vet. Thanks for stayin interested in my boys on going health issues everyone. Y'all are awesome.
 
CONGRATULATIONS!! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Tips to stay OTJ

We say a cat is in remission if the cat can maintain BG levels for 14 days between 40-120 with most of that spent under 100. However, please keep in mind that once a diabetic always a diabetic.

1. Never feed dry - not even treats. If you change wet food types, be 100% sure the new food is also low carb and same low carb % as your current food. Some cats are very carb sensitive and an increase from 3-6% to 8-10% can spike the BG’s. Don’t feed if you aren’t sure!
2. Weigh every 2 weeks to 1 month to watch for weight changes. Too much of a weight gain can cause loss of remission.
3. Measure blood once a week, indefinitely. You want to catch a relapse quickly.
4. No steroids or oral meds with sugar - remind your vet whenever giving you any medication. Always double check.
5. Monitor food intake, peeing and drinking. If increasing, a sign of losing remission.
6. Regular vet checks for infection such as dental , ear or UTI. And get them treated quick!

If he does fall out of remission you need to be more aggressive and resolve issues/ back on insulin as soon as possible as the window for a second remission is tight if any.
 
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