Newbie - Food question

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J

Juliet's Mommy

Member Since 2013
My 16 yr. old Juliet was diagnosed yesterday with diabetes. I had her on .5 Prednisolone every day since about May 15, 2013 to treat her chronic asthma; the vet believes the pred triggered the diabetes. Am now tapering her off that. She is on 1 Unit of Insulin every 12 hours. She also has a UTI; is on Baytril & Phenoxybenzamine for that since yesterday. Since yesterday her appetite has been decreasing. Can I give her tuna, or the more flavorful Fancy Feast/Whiskas type food? I should note that that kind of food had given her UTI's many years ago; I have never given it to her since. I know it is not the best for her but am trying to get some food into her. She nibbled at the wet and dry M/D which I just bought yesterday, and at her regular food (Friskies Special Diet). My vet is now closed until Monday, the closest ER vet is horrible, the next closest ER vet is almost an hour away but very, very expensive. I am realizing that despite the instructions my vet gave me yesterday there is so much I don't know. Juliet did eat a little wet M/D 20 minutes before her last insulin shot (at 8:15pm tonight). The vet mentioned giving her honey but I am not sure when I am supposed to do that, although I did give her little this afternoon. She is drinking water steadily but actually not as much as she was a few days ago. She urinated about 4 times today, substantially each time (which is an improvement over the other night, when she would repeatedly go to her box in the classic UTI mode of only going a little or not at all). She has not had a bowel movement since Thursday. I gave her lactulose and Laxatone, and put a small amount of Miralax and Vetasyl in her food, per my vet's instructions. She has a history of constipation. I apologize if this post is confusing. I am exhausted from lack of sleep, worry and guilt that I am getting everything wrong.
 
Hi Juliet's mom and welcome to the FDMB. The best place you never expected to be.

That's a lot of medications. Hope she is easy to pill!

The honey is only if her BG (blood glucose) drops too low. It's a way to raise the BG fast, wears off quickly and has to repeated if her BG's are low.

Are you home testing?

Steroid induced diabetes is often easy to get in remission with a food change.

Yes, meat baby food like the Beechnut or Gerbers meat will work. Check to make sure there is no onion or garlic. The Fancy Feast Classic Pates are what we recommend. Pick her favorite flavor or several to try.

ETA: If she will eat any of her old Friskies Special Diet, that is a good food for diabetic cats also. She may not like the taste of the Hill's M/d.

Have you tried heating up the food a bit? Sometimes, the smell gets them to eat.

The Baytril is know to cause a lack of appetite.
 
Thank you, Deb & Wink! No, no home testing. Didn't know I could do that. Vet has scheduled an appt. Thurs. for a glucose reading.

How do I tell if it has dropped? I will ask my vet if I can/should home test.

She's not easy to pill. I use pill pockets but they don't always work so then I have to pill her myself. I have 5 cats, 3 other of whom are on daily medication for various things, so I do know how to pill a cat!

I just found a forgotten stash of classic Fancy Feast and Gerbers Chicken, Beef, etc. that I bought several months ago for my cat Darby when he was having health issues and not eating (he is doing much better now, thankfully). So no run needed to grocery store tonight after all. I am going to try these foods out now to see if she will eat. I will keep you updated.

Thanks for the info that it can be brought into remission with the proper food. My vet prefers the wet and dry M/D. But not sure if she will eat enough of that. But for the weekend I will try the Gerbers & Fancy Feast. And I am calling my vet @ 8am Monday morning!
 
Wow, about the Baytril. This is so frustrating. She is on the course already, so I am going to continue it, at least until I talk to my vet on Mon.

Thanks for the heating tip.
 
Be sure to chase the pills with a squirt of water from a syringe. Pills can easily get stuck in the throat and cause problems.

Home testing. Some vets support it, some don't. We like it because we know it helps to keep our kitties safe. It also gives a better, more accurate reading of the BG (blood glucose ) when done at home instead of under the stress induced at the vet's office. Some cats get stressed just from the ride to the vet, let alone being with all those strange people.

We have tips, tricks, videos, a shopping list for supplies if you think you might be interested in the home testing. It's scary at first but gets easier as you do it more.

If you are not hometesting, there are some secondary monitoring tools you can use. Here is the link to the document secondary monitoring tools

Let us know if you need more tips and tricks on getting your cat to eat. We have a whole list of them.
 
The key thing is to keep her eating right now.

First she probbaly doesn't like the prescription food, most cats get sick of that real quick so give her back her friskies. The friskies pâtés are all great for diabetic cats since they are low carb.. As are the fancy feast classic pâtés. You need to watch the other flavours though as they can be too high carb.., here is a chart.. You want column c (%calories from carbs) to be under 10%.. http://www.catinfo.org/docs/FoodChartPublic9-22-12.pdf

Second, both the steroid and the UTI are likely exacerbating the diabetes. As soon as she is off the steroid and the UTi clears up you may see a drop in blood sugar and since you are giving insulin you need to be really careful as she could go too low.. That is why we strongly recommend home testing and can provide more info on that if you like..

Wendy
 
It's ProZinc Insulin.

Juliet eagerly ate the Gerbers & Fancy Feast. Thank you so much! I am so relieved.

Thanks for all the types, info & links. I will come back and review everything tomorrow. I was up a few nights this week with her and today was very long, so my brain is fried.

I am so grateful I found this wonderful forum. That awful feeling I had the past few days has lifted and now I know I can manage to look after my baby Juliet. With your good advice & support of course!
 
Glad we could help. Keep asking more questions or ask for clarification if you need it. We have lots of collective experience here and live feline diabetes 24/7. That means, we know a lot about the day to day management.
 
Another long day, with getting the hang of this diabetic care plus everything else I have to do around here. I had no idea how much went into managing a diabetic cat! She is drinking, eating (favorites are still the Fancy Feast and the Gerbers, which I restocked today), gave her all the meds, she had normal urination and bowel movements. Twice she was peppy enough to climb up her steps to a little cat ottoman next to my chair here. Otherwise she laid on her one of her beds or on the living room carpet (where she is sleeping now) or the kitchen floor. Am calling the vet tomorrow to go over things. Have not had the time to go over all the links and info but as soon as I have the time I will. Thanks very, very much; I already feel better about handling this with your support.
 
Hi and welcome! :YMHUG:

JulietsMommy said:
Another long day, with getting the hang of this diabetic care plus everything else I have to do around here. I had no idea how much went into managing a diabetic cat!
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Yes, it can seem overwhelming at first, but that's why we're here to help! It gets easier as you go and eventually, it'll be so easy that I compare managing Michelangelo's diabetes as being easier than feeding him. (He's allergic to all red meats and needs higher protein foods, which makes food choices severely limited!)

JulietsMommy said:
She is drinking, eating (favorites are still the Fancy Feast and the Gerbers, which I restocked today), gave her all the meds, she had normal urination and bowel movements. Twice she was peppy enough to climb up her steps to a little cat ottoman next to my chair here. Otherwise she laid on her one of her beds or on the living room carpet (where she is sleeping now) or the kitchen floor. Am calling the vet tomorrow to go over things. Have not had the time to go over all the links and info but as soon as I have the time I will. Thanks very, very much; I already feel better about handling this with your support.
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That is great to hear that she is eating again. Is she having difficulty walking? By any chance, did the vet mention she might have diabetic neuropathy? If so, there is a product called methyl-b12, which is known to work wonders on neuropathy (zobaline is the cat version).

Did you get a chance to speak with the vet? What did they say?
 
Hi, KPassa, sorry I have not been on, been very busy. My main question right now is: What time of day is best to home test?

Last Thursday the vet told me not to bring Juliet in for glucose testing but to home test her starting tomorrow. Juliet gets very, very stressed at the vet so the vet said the home testing would be better. I was surprised & relieved that she brought it up first! I went in and got the kit from them; a tech explained how to do it. So tomorrow is the first day of home testing. I am very nervous.

I also have to bring some urine in to the vet tomorrow.

She is doing better; she seems more comfortable. She likes the dry M/D but not the Wet M/D. She doesn't eat a lot of the dry M/D but she will nibble on it throughout the day. The vet also said to try some W/D, which I already had. She doesn't really like that either. But she love the baby food, so I am still feeding her that. Also she is eating the Friskies Special Diet again, after refusing it for a while. I have stopped giving her the Fancy Feast since she is eating enough of the other foods.

I think her UTI is gone.

She is an older, heavy cat. She has always been a heavy cat. I tried often to get her weight down (hence the W/D) but as the years went by it was difficult.

Her back legs are ok, although she is slowing down more and more. She has had trouble with her front legs for years, before she was diabetic (as recently as last January the vet checked her for diabetes and she did not have it). I have everything set up for her (beds, water, food, 2 litter pans) where she can easily get to them.

She has feline asthma, which has also made her weaker.

I notice she is better, more energetic in the morning. She will go over to the bay window (although she did not do so for past 2 days, which worries me) to lie in the morning sun. Otherwise she sleeps in the living room most of the day. Sometimes she will climb up the little steps I have for her to the cat ottoman that is next to me here. Although she is also doing that less often.

I should mention that even with the front leg trouble she has had, it usually didn't slow her down until now, with all of her other health problems weakening her. Of all of my 5 cats, she is the only one who, up until a few weeks ago, would always scoot out the back door every chance she got, and then scoot down the 2 steps from the back porch to nibble on the grass. But I always put her back inside. All of my cats are indoor cats;it would never have been safe for her to stay out there for several reasons.
 
Hello there

Here are some home testing tips: - depending on your cat and how much of a bleeder they ae it can be challenging the first few times https://docs.google.com/document/d/13c_CPZVKz27fD_6aVbsguadJKvjSrSAkD7flgPPhEag/pub

You will want to test before every shot so that you can be aware if she is low. We also recommend a mid cycle test to see how low she is going and one before bed to see what her nighttime plans are. Did they give you an Alphatrak? Those are kinda costly... esp the strips.. let us know if you want lower priced ideas

We will be better able to control her blood glucose ( and maybe even remission) if you can make tweaks to her diet so she is only getting low carb canned with calories from carbs under 10% ie
- Fancy feast classic pates
Friskies pates - the special diet is good too (just not the sliced chicken in gravy)!

The wet and dry M/D are too high carb. If you totally cannot switch her to just wet as above we can suggest low carb dry too.


Wendy
 
Hi Wendy & Tiggy! Thank you for the testing tips, especially about doing it before the shot. They did sell me the Alphatrak kit. If her diabetes doesn't cease when the pred is out of her system (I have tapered her off it for good now) then I definitely will want to check out those lower priced options.

Just spoke to the vet. Tomorrow I have to chart it, so I will have to test her every 2 hours, to see where she is at, and report back to them. From then on I guess I will do it as you recommend, 3x a day.

I never give the Special Diet slices in gravy, as those have always made my cats throw up. I stick to the Turkey & Giblet, Beef & Chicken, Ocean Whitefish & Salmon.

I worry about continuing to feed her Fancy Feast classics, worried it might trigger another UTI, which is why I have stuck to Special Diet for most of her life.

Why would the vet recommend the M/D if they are too high carb? Forgot to ask her about that. Will ask them tomorrow.
 
Glad to hear you're going to get started with testing. :thumbup Are you adding water to their food? This will go a long way in helping with UTI as it keeps them well-hydrated and flushes their system. Fancy Feast vs. Friskies... Michelangelo is allergic to most all the Fancy Feast and the Chicken Feasts all contain fish, so I pretty much stopped buying FF. I wouldn't worry about this too much. I do supplement them with Tiki Cat Chicken varieties and/or around 20% pure protein (like boiled or raw chicken breast) to make sure they're eating their "vegetables," but other than that, they've been nomming down solely on the Friskies for the last five months and have been fine. ;-)

JulietsMommy said:
Why would the vet recommend the M/D if they are too high carb? Forgot to ask her about that. Will ask them tomorrow.
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Vets are taught very little nutritional information and what little they learn is usually taught to them by the pet food companies, so you can see how this problem arises. From what I've been able to figure out, most vets who push the high carb "diabetes" formulas are doing so because they still adhere to the old school belief that high fiber is good for diabetics. It might be for humans but it has been disproved in felines for years now. Obligate carnivores do not need fiber or carbs.
 
Those flavours of friskies are perfect - you dont need the fancy feast.

A lot of cats get sick of the m/d liver flavour really quick and its expesnive so I wouldnt bother.


Wendy
 
Sorry, had to log off earlier, just getting back now. Thanks for the food advice.

Have to try to get some sleep. Will let you know how the tests/charting goes. Starting it @ 7:30am.
 
The vets recommend certain foods based on what the sales reps from the pet food companies tell them.

Hope everything went well this morning. Let us know please. You are part of our FDMB family now and we worry about family if we haven't heard from them.

Don't know where you live so your 7:30 am may be different then mine, but my 7:30 has come and gone. ;-)

If you would put some data in the user control panel, it would help us to help you better.

Would you please provide us with some more information and put this in your user control panel? It helps us to help you better. This will take about 5 minutes of your time.
Think of this as having some very useful information at our finger tips for those that are replying to your posts. One reason we like to see this information in your signature is because if there is ever an emergency situation like a possible hypoglycemic episode, we don’t have to ask a lot of questions like what meter you are using to give you the best advice. Doing this signature update is totally optional, but it does help us to help you better.
If you are willing to do this, would you please do those updates when you get a chance? Thanks.
Go to the upper left corner of your screen and click on the words, User Control Panel
On the next screen, a row of tabs is presented. Select the Profile tab
On the next screen, there are a number of choices along the left hand side. Select Edit Profile.
Go down to the location field and enter your country, state/province, and city if you are willing to share that info.
Click on submit to save this change.

Still in the User Control Panel, Profile tab, this time select Edit Signature from the left hand list of options.
A free form text box appears.
We like to see information like your name, your cats name age and sex, the diagnosis date for the diabetes like this (DX 4/30/13), what meter you are using for testing, what insulin you are using , what you are feeding (wet or dry, what brands/style of food), any complicating health issues your cat may have, any additional medications your cat is receiving. If you are using a pet specific meter like an Alphatrak or Ipet, please change the font size on that text from Normal to Large (using the drop down arrow list in the middle of the editing commands)

Click on submit to save this information. Now, this will appear at the end of every post you make. You can update the info when you need to.

There is an additional document you can create to provide even more information about your cat. This is also optional to create this google document and link it into your signature. The profile is in addition to the synopsis info in your signature. See this link on the how to's of profile creation. http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=79123
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Hi Deb & Wink, I am so sorry I have not been on. Wed. afternoon one of my other cats, Tommy, got sick (tummy trouble) so I had to rush him to the vet. He is ok now. Then Thursday afternoon my computer monitor went kaput. I had to buy a new one.

So first of all, re: the testing: her levels were in the 300's all day (highest was 358, lowest was 311). Vet told me to up her dose to 2 units 2x day. I will repeat the glucose testing 2 weeks from now.

She had her last pred dose last Thurs. Can her levels be this high and yet still (hopefully) be temporary? Meaning once the pred clears out of her system is there still a chance that the diabetes will cease?

Juliet was a real trooper for the testing. And she is a cat who can be somewhat temperamental. I am so proud of her. She is my brave baby.

She is eating well and is alert when she is awake, although she does sleep most of the day.

I am at EST time. It is 11:01 pm now. I thought I had set it for that when I joined the board.
 
Sorry to hear that one of your civies got sick. A civie is a civilian or a non-diabetic cat. Glad to hear Tommy is better.

She had her last pred dose last Thurs. Can her levels be this high and yet still (hopefully) be temporary? Meaning once the pred clears out of her system is there still a chance that the diabetes will cease?
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Yes they can drop quickly. That is why we like to home test. 2 weeks is an awfully long time to wait to see how the BG numbers are trending. If you are changing the food to a lower carb food too, the 2U of insulin could be too much and she could hypo. Believe me, they are no fun to deal with. We can walk you through them if you are home testing. Otherwise, it's a trip to the emergency vet for support.

I do she that you have your location as NJ. Would you go back and add the other information to your user control panel when you get a chance. It's optional but it does help us to help you better. It should only take a couple of minutes, max. If you look at my signature, you can see some of the data we like to see.

Still in the User Control Panel, Profile tab, this time select Edit Signature from the left hand list of options.
A free form text box appears.
We like to see information like your name, your cats name age and sex, the diagnosis date for the diabetes like this (DX 4/30/13), what meter you are using for testing, what insulin you are using , what you are feeding (wet or dry, what brands/style of food), any complicating health issues your cat may have, any additional medications your cat is receiving. If you are using a pet specific meter like an Alphatrak or Ipet, please change the font size on that text from Normal to Large (using the drop down arrow list in the middle of the editing commands) Names of your other cats. ;-)

Click on submit to save this information. Now, this will appear at the end of every post you make. You can update the info when you need to.

There is an additional document you can create to provide even more information about your cat. This is also optional to create this google document and link it into your signature. The profile is in addition to the synopsis info in your signature. See this link on the how to's of profile creation. http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopi ... =6&t=79123
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Right now the vet wants me to stay with the food she is on. I have to ask them more about it. I am very confused about the food.

The vet told me not to test (the all day, every 2 hours testing I did yesterday) until 2 weeks from now. But of course I can still test her whenever I want.

I tried to add the other data. But I think it still shows me an hour behind. It is now 11:33 pm here.
 
You do not have to run a curve every day. That is what the testing every 2 hours was for, a curve.

We do recommend testing before every shot. It's called the pre-shot test. That way, you know if the number is high enough to shoot or not. We have a shoot/no shoot threshold of 200 here on the Health forum. If you ever get a number below 200, don't feed, don't shoot, post here for help and retest in 30 minutes to see if the number is rising or falling.

It's also a very good idea to test in the mid-cycle because that is when the lowest point or nadir is. +5 to +7 hours usually but it can vary. Wink was always around +4.

Dose changes for Lantus are based on the Nadir numbers, not the pre-shots numbers. That is why we need to see those mid-cycle tests.
 
Oh, yes, I know that the curve was not to be every day. But the vet told me not to test again until I run another curve in 2 weeks.

Thanks for the info on testing before shooting. The more I know, the more I realize I don't know!

Thanks for all of your help & advice. I really appreciate it.

I will be talking to my vet tomorrow. Lots of cats medical issues at our house right now!

Gotta get some sleep. It's been another long week.
 
I tried to add the other data. But I think it still shows me an hour behind. It is now 11:33 pm here.
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If the time still seems to be off, it's probably because you don't have daylight savings time set. Go to your user control panel, Board Preferences tab, Edit Global Settings. The radio button for Summer time/DST is in effect needs to be yes. Submit to save. Double check to make sure your timezone is Eastern Standard Time.

Unlike windows, the message board does not automatically adjust the time. So twice a year, people send out reminders so we can change our settings and start to prepare to shift our shot times earlier or later to stay on schedule.

I will be talking to my vet tomorrow. Lots of cats medical issues at our house right now!
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You mean someone besides Tommy and Juliet are sick? That is so hard to have multiple cats in your home sick at the same time. One at a time is draining enough, especially as you are learning to deal with managing diabetes for Juliet.

We have members with a wide range of experience with other diseases and illnesses. Ask and we may have some ideas to ask your vet about.

Gotta get some sleep. It's been another long week.
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Hope you got a good nights sleep. Aren't all the weeks long with our increasingly complicated lives? ;-)
 
I reset the time, hope it works correctly now. Thanks for the info on how to do it.

The big worry besides Juliet is Tommy. Tummy issues reappeared. He is better tonight, I think. Have appt. at specialist on Mon., but if he keeps improving I can cancel it.

All of my 5 cats have medical issues. They were all strays, and 3 of them came 12 years ago (as kittens) from a colony that had to be a few generations in of strays/ferals, so I think there are some congenital issues. I have kept them all indoors & given them the best care possible. I had have cats my whole life, (I am 51), but never so many health problems at once with them. It is overwhelming at times.

Juliet is doing really well today. That is a relief as I have been fussing over Tommy.

Thanks for the offer of advice re: my cats' medical issues. I am managing it all, just need the days to be longer! When I have more time & energy I will list all of their issues.
 
Hows Juliets appetite? Her food could be contributing to keeping her blood levels high so once she is eating better I would like to make some tweaks to her food specifically losing the dry... or at least trying a lower carb dry

Also do you want to set up a spreadsheet so we can track her trends? It will help us a lot to see whats going on... heres how. let us know if you need help http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=18207
 
Thanks for the advice about tweaking her diet and the link to the spreadsheet. I will be seeing the vet on Wed with Harry, one of my civies. Will discuss Juliet's diet with her.

Sorry I have take so long to reply. She is doing very well. Will reply more when I have the time. :)

Thanks again.
 
I saw that you were online so I will jump in ..... what we
have found over the years is a low carb diet is optimum for a diabetic cat and really all cats. Mix as much water in
as you can. I have many civvies and they do so well on this diet. I use turkey meat, cooked chicken, chicken giblets
as treats.

I lost two civvies to kidney disease just before my Payne was Dx ..... I have one now with kidney problems. I truly
believe had I been doing this diet, I could have saved the others. Dry food is not good for cats, at all. It doesn't
have any water to speak of and it causes all kinds of problems. My civvie who has kidney problems is really doing
well, doc said he only had a year and we are at 2+ and no weight loss, vomiting or any other signs.

This is so hard in the beginning. My Payne was Dx and went right into DKA .... she is not a normal diabetic and it
took forever to find what worked for her. I know you will do well.
Nancy and Payne
 
Thanks Nancy. My cats were only on wet food until recently. Mainly chicken, turkey & beef.

I panicked a few weeks ago when Juliet stopped eating (the night I joined this board). Now her appetite is back. But for a while there I just need her to eat anything possible.

Mixing the water in is a great idea. Some of my other cats never seem to drink enough water (and they are the same ones that ignore the little flowing fountain water bowls I got just for them!).

I have a visit on Wed. with the vet, for another cat, but i can ask her about Juliet's diet. I have a long list of questions for her about that!

Thanks so much for your advice. I really appreciate it!
 
Cats prefer to get their hydration from food. If you put the food on a plate and mix in water you will notice that they will lick from the outside in because the outside is more hydrated. They drink out of a water bowl because it is necessary due to the way that we have been feeding them, but they would rather not. I transitioned my civvies and sugarfoster to a raw diet with some low-carb canned food in-between, to which I add water.
They have not touched the water bowl since.
 
We can help a lot more if you set up the spreadsheet (see my post above), plus you can use it to track trends and even show your vet! Let me know if you need help and we can even set it up for you!

Wendy
 
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