jt and trouble (GA)
Member Since 2009
THANKS Susanne!
Newbie - Elizabeth and Lily
- Thread starter Elizabeth20
- Start date
- Status
Red & Rover (GA)
Member Since 2016
Some reading for you.
UK Diabetic Cat Food Info (includes some supplies) and UK Cat Food List
INTRODUCTION TO CANNISULIN/VETSULIN & N/NPH
BEGINNER'S GUIDE TO CANINSULIN/VETSULIN
UK Diabetic Cat Food Info (includes some supplies) and UK Cat Food List
INTRODUCTION TO CANNISULIN/VETSULIN & N/NPH
BEGINNER'S GUIDE TO CANINSULIN/VETSULIN
Elizabeth20
Member Since 2020
It's 0.3% crude fibre
Elizabeth20
Member Since 2020
Crikey so much reading!
I have some saline from the vets. Is it ok to take 1 of saline and 1 of insulin into the syringe and then give her 1 of the mix, while I am waiting for the new syringes? I will ask the vet to swap the 1.0 syringes for 0.5 tomorrow but if they aren't willing to let me change the dose I will need to order online and I don't want to OD her in the meantime.
I have some saline from the vets. Is it ok to take 1 of saline and 1 of insulin into the syringe and then give her 1 of the mix, while I am waiting for the new syringes? I will ask the vet to swap the 1.0 syringes for 0.5 tomorrow but if they aren't willing to let me change the dose I will need to order online and I don't want to OD her in the meantime.
Critter Mom
Member Since 2014
Sometimes the server gets very sluggish and it can take a while for messages to appear.
Mogs
.
Critter Mom
Member Since 2014
Thanks for the additional food analysis info, Elizabeth.
Purina Pro Plan Feline Convalescence Paté (UK formulation)
As fed values:
Moisture : 76.0%
Protein: 11.2%
Fat content: 7.8%
Crude ash: 3.5%
Crude fibres: 0.3%
Calculated 'as fed' Carbs: 1.2% (confirmed on Purina website product page)
% kilocalories from carbs = 3.8% (5% carbs on a dry matter basis).
Mogs
.
jt and trouble (GA)
Member Since 2009
NO do not mix saline with insulin. Unless I'm misunderstanding what you are saying.
Diane Tyler's Mom GA
Member Since 2018
- Are these the syringes Elizabeth should get if her vet does not have ones with half unit markings , they list needle size and CC so which ones would she order,There is a drop down box to choose which ones you want
- @Critter Mom
@Diana&Tom
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SOL-M/Sol-Vet U-40 Insulin Syringes for Dogs and Cats
If your dog or cat has diabetes and requires at-home insulin injections, you will need insulin syringes to administer the medication. The Sol-Vet U-40 insulin syringes are designed for easy, accurate dosing labeled with half unit, bold dosage markings and a transparent barrel. Needles are ultra sharpened for injection comfort. Available in 29G & 30G needle sizes, and 3/10 cc,1/2cc & 1cc syringe sizes. Packaged in 100ct boxes. Use only with U-40 insulin. This product requires a prescription from a veterinarian.
https://www.vetrxdirect.com/product/view/sol-m-u-40-insulin-syringes-for-dogs-and-cats-rx
Or should she order one of the ones below that were listed in the UK information
SYRINGES
Caninsulin and Prozinc are U40 insulins; that means they have 40 units of insulin per ml of liquid. They are used with corresponding U40 syringes.
Syringes are usually far cheaper to buy online than from your vet. You could use the Caninsulin or Prozinc branded syringes, but many UK'ers use the generic U40 syringes as they are very much cheaper. However, these are all 0.5ml which, while the same size as the Caninsulin syringes, are larger than the (0.3ml) Prozinc syringes.
There are some generics made by VetUK, and there are also 'Sol-Vet' syringes, which cost a little more. (Some UK folks consider that the Sol-Vet U40's have clearer markings and sharper needles):
VetUK U40 syringes: https://www.vetuk.co.uk/veterinary-...nsulin-syringe-with-needle-box-of-100-p-11335
Sol-Vet U40 syringes: https://www.petdrugsonline.co.uk/sol-m-u40-insulin-caninsulin-syringes-0-5ml
https://www.viovet.co.uk/SOL-V-Insu...u-bmMgyt3OomMGToKpkmtKE0G7ktXXvhoCklAQAvD_BwE
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Elizabeth20
Member Since 2020
Yep I was ordering the VetUK ones.
Hey her legs are working again! I mean not running anywhere but they don't look like she's about to topple over any more. I'll test her again in a mo. She's been a grazer so far but has a tendency to gobble up wet food in one sitting so it should be easier to regulate her once she's switched over. I've done so much reading today and had so little sleep that I don't really know what to do immediately. I'll test her before I go to bed to be sure she's not through the roof, and then assuming she's measuring high enough tomorrow I guess I'll just have to give her the 1 unit and test the curve for myself, and then speak to the vet once they're open about swapping the syringes I've already paid for. If that's a bad plan I'm sure one of you incredibly helpful people will let me know. I've done my signature and started a spreadsheet, such as it is at present. If someone could tell me what dosage method I'm using I'd appreciate it because I can't think straight any more.
Thank you all so much for being here at the start of this very stressful and confusing adventure. I'm sorry if I have appeared to ignore or misunderstand anyone, or have failed to read something I should have done before posting.
jt and trouble (GA)
Member Since 2009
NO WORRIES you take care of you, otherwise who will take care of Lily?
As for dosing and methods I will leave that for the "experts"
take care
j
As for dosing and methods I will leave that for the "experts"
take care
j
Diane Tyler's Mom GA
Member Since 2018
Good job with the test I'm going to tag some members that might be able to
suggest a dose for the AM
@Deb & Wink
@Chris & China (GA)
@tiffmaxee
@Wendy&Neko
Hi ladies @Elizabeth20 just started to test , vet told her to give 1 unit in the AM
No PM shot.
If possible can you read her posts because she had quite a scare .I know she does not have any data yet
but the 1 unit seems to be too much.
She just ordered syringes with half unit markings
I would hate to see her give 1 unit like she said and something happen to her kitty
Also she is asking about what dosing method she would follow. Is there one when using Caninsulin
Thank you so much
@Wendy&Neko
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Diane Tyler's Mom GA
Member Since 2018
I assume that's a pet meter you are using?
Elizabeth what food are you feeding Lily as of now so members can know, in your signature you have combo? Please explain Thanks Elizabeth
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Red & Rover (GA)
Member Since 2016
Feline diabetes is a steep learning curve but you will get a handle on it quite quickly. And there is a whole world of people here who have done their research and diligence to help you. 
I have not had a chance to read through all the posts so cannot comment on reducing to 0.5 units.
But to do so with full unit syringes, take a used syringe and play with it. Fill with coloured water until you have what you think is 0.5 units. You will have to eyeball it. A pair of pound shop reading glasses or a magnifier helps. Then place that coloured water syringe aside and use it as a guide.
Never heard of that one. I'd be concerned about contaminating the insulin.
I have not had a chance to read through all the posts so cannot comment on reducing to 0.5 units.
But to do so with full unit syringes, take a used syringe and play with it. Fill with coloured water until you have what you think is 0.5 units. You will have to eyeball it. A pair of pound shop reading glasses or a magnifier helps. Then place that coloured water syringe aside and use it as a guide.
Elizabeth20
Member Since 2020
Hi Diane, I 've got quite confused with being advised not to change her food. I still have her dry food down but she is eating the new wet food in preference. I put her down some Bozita (Tetra chicken) half an hour ago when she ran out of the convalescent stuff and she has absolutely wolfed it down. Her level was 19.1 an hour ago, that's +13 hours since her insulin and only up 1mmol, 343 up from 325 at +8 (am I doing this right?!). I'm loath to let her have any additional carbs given that she has another 9 hours to wait till her next insulin. I'm of a mind just to keep her on the lower carb diet as we are only just starting and I will be with her and monitoring as much as she will let me tomorrow. She also eats a full meal of it as opposed to grazing which she does with dry, which I think I've gathered will make it easier to tolerate the big hit of insulin and level out over the following hours but that might be totally wrong. I will amend my signature to reflect that and anyone who wants to offer advice is welcome to.
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Elizabeth20
Member Since 2020
Thank you for this. I'll see what curve I get tomorrow as long as people agree that's OK to do, and then adjust if things are not as we'd like. Her numbers did not reflect the hypo I was worrying about so I will try to get a clearer picture of the effect of the insulin tomorrow. I think she had just gone downhill very rapidly before treatment started and was too weak to have any interest in food or to move around much. The improvement in her back legs is dramatic enough to back that up I think.Feline diabetes is a steep learning curve but you will get a handle on it quite quickly. And there is a whole world of people here who have done their research and diligence to help you.
Never heard of that one. I'd be concerned about contaminating the insulin.
I have not had a chance to read through all the posts so cannot comment on reducing to 0.5 units.
But to do so with full unit syringes, take a used syringe and play with it. Fill with coloured water until you have what you think is 0.5 units. You will have to eyeball it. A pair of pound shop reading glasses or a magnifier helps. Then place that coloured water syringe aside and use it as a guide.
Good night all.
jt and trouble (GA)
Member Since 2009
Good night take care please give Sweet Lily some scritches from us
Diane Tyler's Mom GA
Member Since 2018
Elizabeth, I didn't know she was eating any dry food.
What menbers were telling you was not to cut out the dry food completely
if you were not testing Lily. If she was only eating dry food that is probably what kept
her safe .
Elizabeth was she only eating dry food this whole time?
If so they say to transition slowly, adding some of the dry to the wet food , and
each day decrease decrease the dry.
I'm glad she loves the wet food.
I'm sorry no one suggested a lower dose so you can shoot twice a day.
Caninsulin usually only last for 8 hours, so if she is not getting any insulin at night
she will have high numbers and it will hard to get her regulated.
Can you call the vet tomorrow and tell him what happened and suggest lowering
the dose so you can give it twice a day.
Maybe 0.25 units twice a day , it can always be raised if needed.
Did you ever think about switching to Lantus?
It's a much more gentle insulin .
It works different than Caninsulin , it builds up a depot , I will post the link
so you can read about.
Caninsulin is mainly used for dogs.
I would test Lily @+1 tomorrow morning to see where she's at if you do
give the 1 unit. Post it so we can see it and also on your spreadsheet.
Do you have any high carb wet food if needed to bring her up if she drops
to low.
I'll check back in the morning. Lily is such a sweet looking girl , she is a tiny Kittie like you said.
Good night Elizabeth
Diane Tyler's Mom GA
Member Since 2018
When you say you will get a curve , I assume you mean her BG
A curve is when you test every 2 hours for 12 hours
Is that what you are planning to do?
Ask the vet about switching to lantus
It's more expensive so most of us buy it from Marks Marine in Canada
We can talk about that later down the road
You can read about Lantus here when ever you get a chance
https://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/forums/lantus-basaglar-glargine-and-levemir-detemir.9/
A curve is when you test every 2 hours for 12 hours
Is that what you are planning to do?
Ask the vet about switching to lantus
It's more expensive so most of us buy it from Marks Marine in Canada
We can talk about that later down the road
You can read about Lantus here when ever you get a chance
https://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/forums/lantus-basaglar-glargine-and-levemir-detemir.9/
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Elizabeth20
Member Since 2020
I'm not convinced of the accuracy of this meter so I'm taking three measurements each time which she is loving as you can imagine. A fair exchange for a bowl of food though. Pre-breakfast she was between 13 and 15. She's very happy this morning, moving well, stomach has reacted very well to the food, and she was shouting for more which is glorious to hear.
Someone on a local community group has offered me her Lantus because she doesn't use it any more. Still in date, still in the fridge. I think God loves my Lily!
Someone on a local community group has offered me her Lantus because she doesn't use it any more. Still in date, still in the fridge. I think God loves my Lily!
Diana&Tom
Member Since 2009
This is good news! And a bg of 13 - 15 isn’t bad at all. How long after insulin was this and at what dose? If you can get even a couple more tests in during the cycle it would help to see how the dose is working. Do you have plenty of strips? - that’s something to keep on top of, you don’t want to run out.
Ref the Lantus - it is generally considered a better insulin for cats than Caninsulin but I’d discuss it with the vet first if I were you. They may be ok with it but if it hasn’t actually been officially prescribed by them they may not take responsibility for its use in Lily.
Elizabeth20
Member Since 2020
This is before breakfast, and 24 hours after her last insulin shot of 1 unit. The same local lady is a type 1 diabetic and has been moved onto a continuous monitoring device so she's give me her entire stock of hundreds of strips. Unfortunately they expired in June so I think will need to get some more ASAP. That's why I'm doing three at once, unsure of their accuracy.
Yep I totally agree on the Lantus, just amazed I had a resource for it. I'm going to give her the unit of Canansulin in 20 minutes now she's devoured about 200g of food (came back asking for more twice) and then start monitoring after an hour if she'll let me. Downside of improved condition was a resistance to being restrained!
Diana&Tom
Member Since 2009
Good idea to be cautious about the strips if they expired in June. They may or may not be ok so yes I’d get more asap.
Can you get a bg test before shooting? It sounds as if 1u has lasted a long time in Lily and she’s not sky high last time you posted so it would be good to know if she’s going up or down - if she’s dropping, be cautious about dose.
Elizabeth20
Member Since 2020
Ah, the BG was half an hour before shooting and I fed her straight away and I gave her the unit just over half an hour ago. I'll try to get more of a developing picture tomorrow morning. It was just under a unit, hard to be more precise but I just was trying to avoid any chance of being slightly over so I just peeked it over the line. She's a lot more subdued now and lying in a funny position again so I'll test her now I think just to see what's going on.
Elizabeth20
Member Since 2020
Two measurements at AM+1 of 12.5 and 13.1 so that's 225 or 235. She's a bit cross looking but still following me into the kitchen and asking for food. If I keep feeding her (the temptation is always to feed her because she's lost so much weight) will that skew the bg readings? Her food is 9.2% carbs. There's some canned Carny waiting for her too but that's not far off at 7.8%.
Re dry food, she was eating a combination the last month, but would always eat the wet food in preference. Even on the dry food if she had to use the litter tray overnight it was a horrible job to clean up, which I always put down to her not liking to use it and getting upset. This morning it was a totally different state of affairs. I've never been so pleased to see a poo!
Re dry food, she was eating a combination the last month, but would always eat the wet food in preference. Even on the dry food if she had to use the litter tray overnight it was a horrible job to clean up, which I always put down to her not liking to use it and getting upset. This morning it was a totally different state of affairs. I've never been so pleased to see a poo!
jt and trouble (GA)
Member Since 2009
Hope Lily is ok any updates?
jt and trouble (GA)
Member Since 2009
we crossed post. Yes temptations will make her BG higher they are full of carbs. But if shes not eating then...I would try something like freeze dried meat . Since you are testing just give the freeze dried a little more temptations a little less.
Elizabeth20
Member Since 2020
Thanks! She's eaten SO MUCH since she bucked up her ideas last night. Every time I go into the kitchen she's right there with those big eyes! I'll order some zero carb food at some point soon.
jt and trouble (GA)
Member Since 2009
I dont remember if I told you this so please excuse if I'm repeating my self.
My Trouble was a dry food addict. Its all he knew. His life was miserable before he came to us. Mostly surviving on dog kibble.
He likely had diabetes when he first came to live with us. I didnt know this. He got sick and thats when we learned he was diabetic. Long story short...I took away his dry food and is numbers went down 100 points almost over night. Thats why you need to test MORE when removing dry or high carb food. Lucky for me (not so much Trouble) his numbers were so high that 100 points didnt make a dent in his blood sugar. But suffice to say dry food should be a NO NO for ANY diabetic. I dont even feed it to my non-diabetic Zoe.
Many Vets say the dry food is good for teeth. I disagree Its not worth the alternative IMHO
My Trouble was a dry food addict. Its all he knew. His life was miserable before he came to us. Mostly surviving on dog kibble.
He likely had diabetes when he first came to live with us. I didnt know this. He got sick and thats when we learned he was diabetic. Long story short...I took away his dry food and is numbers went down 100 points almost over night. Thats why you need to test MORE when removing dry or high carb food. Lucky for me (not so much Trouble) his numbers were so high that 100 points didnt make a dent in his blood sugar. But suffice to say dry food should be a NO NO for ANY diabetic. I dont even feed it to my non-diabetic Zoe.
Many Vets say the dry food is good for teeth. I disagree Its not worth the alternative IMHO
Elizabeth20
Member Since 2020
I thought the same but now I think maybe she's been ill all this time...
154 at AM+2.5. Only 1 test managed because despite a rice sock she wasn't giving enough for the strips and was very wriggly when I tried to massage more up her ear so that might not be accurate but it's a pretty good drop. I'm going out for some lunch for an hour and will test again when I get back. She's still after more food!
Diana&Tom
Member Since 2009
154 at +2.5??? That’s going down a bit fast for my liking. I think you’d best keep a close eye - there’s still lots of time for a further drop and you don’t want to be dealing with a hypo situation. You gave 1u yes? - it is looking as if that might be too much...
Diana&Tom
Member Since 2009
I really hope you don’t need this but it is worth reading, printing out and keeping by you:
https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/how-to-treat-hypos-they-can-kill-print-this-out.15887/
https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/how-to-treat-hypos-they-can-kill-print-this-out.15887/
Critter Mom
Member Since 2014
Unfortunately they neglect to say that it's pants for the urinary tract and the pancreas.
Mogs
.
jt and trouble (GA)
Member Since 2009
truedat Mogs
Diane Tyler's Mom GA
Member Since 2018
Elizabeth I agree with Diana &Tom that's quite a drop so early in the cycle, please
test her as soon as you get home
I know you are only giving Lily 1 unit mornings only, I would still get a PMPS and maybe another test @+2 or 3
You said 154 @+2.5
On your SS you should have put 154 @+2.5 in there then you have to color
it manually blue
Same whenever you test in 1/2 hour increments whether it's blue, green etc
you have to color it manually
test her as soon as you get home
I know you are only giving Lily 1 unit mornings only, I would still get a PMPS and maybe another test @+2 or 3
You said 154 @+2.5
On your SS you should have put 154 @+2.5 in there then you have to color
it manually blue
Same whenever you test in 1/2 hour increments whether it's blue, green etc
you have to color it manually
Diane Tyler's Mom GA
Member Since 2018
Are you going to call your vet and see what he says about lowering her dose
so you can shoot twice a day?
so you can shoot twice a day?
Diane Tyler's Mom GA
Member Since 2018
So am I Diana
Elizabeth20
Member Since 2020
I think I may have a monitor accuracy problem because she is now reading both 10.5 (189) and one minute later 7.3 (131). I would like to give her a lower dose. She is hungry and active so I have given her some food now to stop her sugar dropping further. I have some higher carb food (Sheba pouches) and have given her a bit of that for now. I have another four pouches of that.
I am just talking to the out of hours vet now. They are happy that at +5.5 hours her levels are OK but that we can't get any more curve info because I've fed her. They have said as long as she doesn't drop to below 3.5 at the nadir she is fine and to try again with 1 unit tomorrow, measure as long as I can as long as she doesn't go down to that point and then we will know what to advise on Monday.
Diana&Tom
Member Since 2009
I think you also need to get some fresh strips asap and hope they are more reliable. Those numbers are ok but the 7 is still going down so I would continue to monitor and make sure she doesn’t drop much further - it’s all very well for the vet to say she’s ok at 3.5 but I wouldn’t want to go quite that low myself whilst still getting the hang of all this.
Critter Mom
Member Since 2014
Hi Elizabeth,
1. Body acclimatising to the endogenous insulin: if the dose is safe then this reaction should greatly decrease after a few doses.
2. Dose too high: the cat becomes lethargic because its body is working so hard trying to counter the effects of the insulin, and if liver can't release/synthesise enough emergency glucose to compensate --> hypo.
3. Caninsulin typically drops BG very hard and fast at the beginning of the cycle and BG ends up high again at the end of the cycle. For some cats, this action is too hard on their systems and it makes them feel bad. They become lethargic shortly after insulin has been administered, and only start to perk up again a few hours before the next dose is due. The lethargy is present even when the cat is in safe/high numbers. Unlike in case (1), the lethargy persists well beyond the start of initial treatment. In such cases, switching to a gentler-acting insulin can resolve the pronounced lethargy and make the cat feel a lot better.
The only way to know a cat is safe when lethargic is to check BG level.
Mogs
.
Three possible reasons for the strong lethargic reaction:
1. Body acclimatising to the endogenous insulin: if the dose is safe then this reaction should greatly decrease after a few doses.
2. Dose too high: the cat becomes lethargic because its body is working so hard trying to counter the effects of the insulin, and if liver can't release/synthesise enough emergency glucose to compensate --> hypo.
3. Caninsulin typically drops BG very hard and fast at the beginning of the cycle and BG ends up high again at the end of the cycle. For some cats, this action is too hard on their systems and it makes them feel bad. They become lethargic shortly after insulin has been administered, and only start to perk up again a few hours before the next dose is due. The lethargy is present even when the cat is in safe/high numbers. Unlike in case (1), the lethargy persists well beyond the start of initial treatment. In such cases, switching to a gentler-acting insulin can resolve the pronounced lethargy and make the cat feel a lot better.
The only way to know a cat is safe when lethargic is to check BG level.
Mogs
.
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Elizabeth20
Member Since 2020
I will order strips today. Thank you for waiting while I monitored and spoke to the vet, and sorry for worrying you.
Thank you for that info Mogs. I will ask the vet about a slower acting insulin I think. My partner's brother is diabetic and says it does take a long time for the horrible feeling to wear off if he goes too far one way or the other.
Diana&Tom
Member Since 2009
Ah thank you - we do worry quite easily here!
Yes see what the vet says about another insulin but most will say that you need to give Caninsulin a longer trial before making any switch...
Red & Rover (GA)
Member Since 2016
Yes, be cautious regarding strips. You can use yourself as a control and test your blood glucose. The same numbers range applies. Forewarning: fingertips hurt a lot more than cat's ears.
Elizabeth20
Member Since 2020
OK good to know. The emergency vet explained quite well about her still producing a certain amount of her own insulin and that being how remission can occur, once she's settled a bit. I'm really hoping that's why her morning pre-shot levels are reducing, although that's probably wishful thinking as it's so early!
She's not talking to me now because I wouldn't let her eat my dinner! Given that she doesn't have an evening shot I'm wondering whether to measure her BG before or after her dinner. I imagine her ears are quite sore as she's had to have so many attempts at tests today, and she certainly got more resistant as the day went on, so I don't really want to put her through more than necessary before it all starts again tomorrow. I assume before dinner is more representative of what she'll be working on overnight.
Ale & Bobo & Minnie (GA)
Member Since 2019
The food will never lost carb content. You have to look on their website or email and ask unfortunately they don’t make it easy
Diane Tyler's Mom GA
Member Since 2018
Hey Elizabeth, I see you put the 154 a+2.5 in the #3 cell.
When you get a chance go ahead and put it in the #2 cell. Good job though.
Will check in tomorrow, have a good night .
Oh you can always buy Neosporin Ointment with Pain Relief for Lily's ears.I don't know if you have that in the UK but I think there is something just like that that members in the UK that
they can tell you what to get. You can post the question if you want
You can put a thin layer on them, Make sure you buy the Ointment, and NOT the cream.
And yes you can test her before her dinner, don't feed her though 2 hours before you test.
Then maybe get one more in @+4 or later just to see if her BG is going up a lot since she doesn't get
a night time shot.
When you get a chance go ahead and put it in the #2 cell. Good job though.
Will check in tomorrow, have a good night .
Oh you can always buy Neosporin Ointment with Pain Relief for Lily's ears.I don't know if you have that in the UK but I think there is something just like that that members in the UK that
they can tell you what to get. You can post the question if you want
You can put a thin layer on them, Make sure you buy the Ointment, and NOT the cream.
And yes you can test her before her dinner, don't feed her though 2 hours before you test.
Then maybe get one more in @+4 or later just to see if her BG is going up a lot since she doesn't get
a night time shot.
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jt and trouble (GA)
Member Since 2009
Its called Polysporin in UK
Diane Tyler's Mom GA
Member Since 2018
Red & Rover (GA)
Member Since 2016
This thread is getting very long. Elizabeth, can you start a new thread tomorrow? If there is a crisis, it would take someone an awfully long time to read through 150 posts looking for pertinent information. Thanks.
You can copy the link for this thread and paste it in the new one.
You can copy the link for this thread and paste it in the new one.
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