New vial - dose adjustment?

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Marcy & Klinger (GA)

Member Since 2010
Hello,
We should have a new vial tomorrow. I'm thinking the new vial will have a lot more kick than what we've been using. How much should we reduce his dose by? .25 or .50?
 
Marcy & Klinger said:
Hello,
We should have a new vial tomorrow. I'm thinking the new vial will have a lot more kick than what we've been using. How much should we reduce his dose by? .25 or .50?

I am wondering why you are getting the vial instead of the cartridges? I must have missed the why here somewhere(?)

Anyway, if you are going to be there to spot check I would just stay with your current dose which I think should be that 1.25f that you had him on yesterday and try to stick with that for a few cycles. See how that goes with the new vial and all.

Hi Pamela, I think Klinger's doing the Hokey-Pokey and he turned himself about.

That was funny. LOL :)
 
I always reduce a bit - about 25-33%, whatever is easier to figure out. Not sure why because I never have had a new vial/cart be more potent that the old, even on vetsulin. If you will be around and WILL get tests, then you can probably shoot the same. I always forget to get the tests :roll:
 
Marcy, I would be interested to see what happens with a new vial. Got my vial December 5th and because of low dosing, have almost 1/3 left. So we are both using older vials.
Hmmmm... one could only hope this might be the problem?
 
Hi Pam,
It's nice to know I'm not the only one using a vial. :lol: Is Alley still giving you higher preshots?
We are still getting crazy thunderstorms every night with no sign of them stopping anytime soon. I wonder if that is a little bit of the problem as well.

Pamela, I think we went with the vial initially because I couldn't wait to change insulin and because it was January, we were worried about it freezing during shipping.
It's nice to know I make someone laugh. ;-) I usually just crack myself up.

Thanks for the advice Pamela and Sheila.
 
It looks to me like 1.5u is too much. If you look back over the SS, the last good dose seemed to be in the .75u-1u range. I noticed that you put this in the notes when you raised him from .75u to 1u:
Ok he really acts like he feels better on 1 unit. I think the blues were nice on .75, but I think he needs a little more insulin to feel better.
Then he had a 300 on the 4th and it looks like the next week is bouncing and raising the dose, which actually back-fired into a bunch of 300s and 400s. And you are dose hoping between 1.25 and 1.5u the past 5 days. Not sure what that is about???

I would suggest sticking with 1u and letting that settle. He probably has some shed to decrease so it will take a while. You could try .75 for 3 days to get the shed down, but he may need 1u or .9u or 1.1u, somewhere around there. Make smaller adjustments now when you are near the right dose.
 
Thanks, Sheila. I didn't see your post until after I shot 1.5 this morning. He's getting some good numbers today:
AMPS 98
+2 190
+4 232
+6 171
+7 172

I think it's what you orginally thought when he started to get pinks and reds...I had drained the shed reducing his dose to quickly.

With the bouncing between the 1.25 and 1.5 doses recently, it was the 53 at PMPS that one day and starting the new vial. Anyway, we'll see how today plays out. Unless you think I should still reduce his dose to 1 unit???
Thanks again!!
 
Well, I think you should reduce because he had a 400+ at +2 last night, then a 98 this AMPS. His numbers looked better on 1U.

Are we thinking the old vial conked out? If so, it's probably best to be conservative on the dose right now. New vial may have more kick.
 
Yeah, I think 1u - for the reason Vicky mentioned as well as his numbers looking better on the lower dose. But I still think you may have some fine-tuning from 1u and probably down to .9u or something.
 
Ugh, that's never good to see a 500 :sad:

I still think that he had better numbers on 1u, but because of the rebound swings right now the lower dose is just letting the rebound process really break through - his body was expecting to have to defend itself against a higher dose so it just pumped out enough stored glucose to deal with it (it's more complicated than that).

It can take up to 3 days for the hormones that govern rebound to leave their system, so give it a few more days to settle. Then reevaluate.

It would be good to test for ketones while he is sitting in higher numbers.
 
That's some climb. Interesting when you look at it on the spreadsheet it really looks like it's continual rebound from the 98 on Sunday. He pretty much kept going up and up. He had enough shed on Sunday to keep it level, but I have seen this delayed rebound myself. It's very confusing because when it comes after a dose reduction it makes you think you shouldn't have lowered the dose.

Despite how it looks, he could have also had a low Monday AM between +5 and +11 which would compound the problem. I see no other reason for the 500.

I don't recall where we're at with his overall health. Sorry. If you can get a couple ketone tests in during this period, that would be good. Are teeth an issue? Urinary issues? I suspect not because he's getting good action from the Lev.

If you can hold the 1U through at least tomorrow, that would help. You're good at getting frequent tests and that's very helpful. What we're looking for is for his cycles to level off, maybe in the 250s, 300s, but level. That may take well more than 3 days. As I look down your dose columns I wonder if the constant dose changes aren't a huge factor right now. In May you did a good job staying on dose, then I see 5.28/5.29 where it looks like he had a several day cycle similar to the current one where he had an AM green then kept climbing.

The very frustrating thing is that Levemir works so well it is not going to cause full blown hypos on possibly even double the best dose! We see this a lot. But the body thinks it could, so up and down the bounce mobile we go. Gandalf had a 65 that I caught yesterday because he's not eating well and by shot time he was over 300!

I say that because I'm sure you're wondering why if 2.25U was too high of dose why didn't he have truly low numbers. You can think of this like a tug-of-war between Levemir and the liver. Levemir wants to maintain a level blood glucose. Too much means it's going to want a pretty low level, but the liver responds to that as if Levemir is putting the body in danger. Then Levemir says, Oh no you don't, so it tries to gain a foot hold, but the liver tugs back and then you have high BGs for a while because Levemir can't keep up.

And when you've been using it for a long while under these conditions, it takes even longer to get the liver comfortable with reasonably low numbers. That's why he's having bounces off 80s and 90s. The liver has tipped the scales so high, it only feels comfortable in the 300s!

The past few weeks illustrate this very well. He was doing well on 1U, but because he began having lower preshots, you lowered the dose to .75U which couldn't keep up, but once you got up to 1.5U his liver went bonkers. So you go back to last best dose, which was 1U, to get things under control again.

easier said than done 'cause I know those 500s are hard to see. :YMHUG:
 
Just lurking and checking out Klinger....hopefully the high numbers are short-lived.
 
PMPS 357 :smile: I can deal with pink.

Thank you Sheila and Vicky for your amazing explanations. I don't know what I would do without this board! :YMHUG:

I'm going to go back and read everything again...but I wanted to answer Vicky's questions: his last dental was in December, so it could be time for a check? He's peeing fine, but I haven't caught him to get a ketone test lately. I'll try and catch him tonight and tomorrow.

Ok, going to back to read and study his ss.

Kim, thanks for checking on Klinger.
 
Come down from there, Klinger! I was just peeking at his ss. What a rainbow! Hopefully he settles in again soon.
 
Marcy & Klinger said:
Well, we're back to red and black(7/20)
Day 3 on one unit:
AMPS 426
+2 519
PMPS 474

:YMSIGH:
Hold the one unit????

I have a little different perspective on raising the dose to combat higher numbers than others might. Only because Tigger was on a much higher dose than most here. But I think sometimes that clouds my judgment when it comes to recognizing rebound numbers. I never saw the steep drops that you and others seem to have.

That said, if this were Tigger, I would be slowly raising the dose until I saw a breakthrough. The right dose can so easily be missed as said here often. Although with Tigger I did it in .25 and .5 unit increments per Tilly.

I also know that 500's and 400's can also mean not enough insulin, or rebound, or something else medically going on in the background.

You didn't stay with the 1.25 units very long...why not try that again and see what happens?
 
Oy! Well, I am wondering if he still hasn't depleted his shed enough for this dose to work? The last time you tried 1u and got such nice numbers, you raised from .75u. This time you are dropping from 1.5u.

But you could also try the 1.25u if he stays in the 400-500s again tomorrow. Perplexing.
 
Thanks Pamela and Sheila. I was all set to raise to 1.25 but his AMPS is 297 (double checked).
I keep it at 1 unit today and see where he lands tonight.
Have a great day!!!
 
Yeah, the 1U needs some time to get things sorted out. What's so hard about raising dose (and not that raising is always the wrong decision) is that it only works if you're below the optimum dose to start with! Sheila's observation that before you got good numbers when going from .75U to 1U illustrates that. Going down may just take longer to see results.

A 297 preshot is acceptable and good territory to indicate the 1U needs a bit longer.
 
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