New vet recommended PZI instead of Lantus- thoughts?

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evakot

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Hi All,

So I have a newly diagnosed cat (last Friday) who first had a disasterous vet prescribe him 4 units of N and the W/D diet. Today, we went to another vet, in hopes of getting Big Kitty on Lantus. However, this new vet said that she recommends PZI rather than Lantus and she has a lot of good results with it. Any thoughts about that? One thing that made me suspicious of the vet is that she ALSO recommended the W/D diet, which everybody here says is worthless.

Should I look for a third vet???

Eva
 
For her to prefer the use of the insulin you didn't ask for, over the insulin you asked for, she should provide pro's and cons for each insulin. ie: if she prefers PZI over Lantus because Lantus does ____ that she doesn't like or the PZI does ____ more than Lantus etc. Mostly I'd guess she recommends PZI because she can sell it and make a profit from it, where she makes nothing from a script for Lantus. If she is unwilling to work with your request, then I personally would go somewhere else. But I would still ask the question. Just because I don't appreciate generic answers LOL
 
What "PZI" would he use? ProZinc recently replaced PZI Vet but there is not that much experience with the ProZinc. There is also a PZI compounded by BCP Pharmacy. A lot o people have good experience with PZI Vet and BCP PZI. The manufacture's tests for ProZinc showed that it is very comparable to the PZI Vet.
 
Larry and Kitties said:
What "PZI" would he use? ProZinc recently replaced PZI Vet but there is not that much experience with the ProZinc. There is also a PZI compounded by BCP Pharmacy. A lot o people have good experience with PZI Vet and BCP PZI. The manufacture's tests for ProZinc showed that it is very comparable to the PZI Vet.
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Yes- she did say she uses ProZinc. Are there pros of using it versus Lantus..? Or is Lantus generally the best insulin available...?
 
I have mixed feelings about this. I personally love PZI-Vet and will change away from it when there's no longer any to be begged, borrowed, stolen or bought. But, as PZI-Vet is no longer being made, I don't think it's a good choice for a newly-diagnosed cat.

There are other, compounded PZIs available (such as that made by BCP), but I have qualms about variability between batches; other folks have used it very successfully. And there's ProZinc, which the manufacturer is touting as the replacement insulin for PZI-Vet. But it's only been on the market for ~11 weeks. There are several folks who like it and I know one person whose cat had a problem with it. Overall, I'd like to see more information about it before I'd choose it for my Gwyn (mostly because Gwyn has a history of having odd reactions to insulins).

So -- I agree with your vet that I love PZI, but I'm not sure that the PZI s/he's thinking of is a good choice: either it's running out, or may have variability between batches, or doesn't have a really long track record.

If I was starting out with a newly diagnosed cat today, I would probably opt for Levemir as my first choice, with Lantus, compounded PZI and ProZinc as my second choices. (Lantus is on my second tier because I hear rumors that it does best on a strict 12/12 schedule, which I can't always keep to. No idea if the rumors are true and have no desire to switch from PZI so it's irrelevant to me regardless.)
 
JJ & Gwyn said:
So -- I agree with your vet that I love PZI, but I'm not sure that the PZI s/he's thinking of is a good choice: either it's running out, or may have variability between batches, or doesn't have a really long track record.quote]

Per my husband, who actually went with Kitty, she said at first she uses PZI and then at the end of the visit she said that since PZI is often not available, she also uses ProZinc.
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Eva,

I foster diabetic cats. At the moment, I have 5 and all of them are on Lantus. I test them all at home, most of them have regulated very well on Lantus. If I had difficulty regulating any of them, I would switch first to Levemir. if that didn't work, I would try the Pro-Zinc.

In the past, I have used PZI, Vetsulin and Humulin. Yes, I have had a lot of diabetic cats thru my house. I adopt them to a forever home if I can.

One of the things I would want to know about Pro-Zinc is the curve of its action. How long before it takes affect in the cat? How long before you expect it to peak? And how long before is stops acting? The vet should have this information even though the product is new. How flexible can you be about injections? This is important to your life style.

Hope this helps.

Claudia
 
Seems like this is one of those decisions.....you will need to learn all you can and go with your gut.

You could check around for another vet. What did you generally think about this one? Is she open to hometesting? Are there other things about the practice that impressed you or not? How hard would it be to find another one? The food issue is a minor strike, although you can just say the cat won't eat it and feed what you like.

As for the insulins. Truth is, people prefer the insulin they use. There are posters here who love PZI (the new ProZinc seems to be working well for them, and some use the older forms.) Others love Levemir and others love Lantus. It's back to you. I would read the stickies on each Insulin Support group forums and read some of the posts to see what people are dealing with. You can find out how long each insulins lasts (in most cats), how flexible dosing is, etc. Then you can compare it to your needs and lifestyle.

There are pluses and minuses for each insulin type. Cats have gone into remission with all the insulins, and some have worked better for some cats than others. There just aren't any definites. If I were you, I would do my research and go with the one that fits.

Sorry, no easy answer.....
 
Sue and Oliver said:
You could check around for another vet. What did you generally think about this one? Is she open to hometesting? Are there other things about the practice that impressed you or not? How hard would it be to find another one? ..
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This is per my husband's report, as he was the one at the appointment:
Pluses:
- She took 20 minutes to talk, answer questions, etc.
- She was very open to home testing, and said she would show us how when we bring Big Kitty back on Saturday (she wants to keep him during the day to monitor his BC after injection)

Minuses:
- She was not responsive to asking about Lantus and was pretty decisive about using PZI or ProZinc
- The wait was very long- they got in to see her almost an hour past their appt. time
- She said that the M/D diet is great for diabetes, despite being high in carbs...
- The vet office is attached to Pet Smart and thus very noisy

I don't know what to do anymore...Will definetly need to read more on insulin types before making a decision. I'm looking for something that is safe with a cat who is home alone (with his feline "sister") a lot. Something that doesn't cause dramatic swings in BC but works steadily and effecively. And- some flexibility with a shot schedule would be a big plus. There might be days when we are 30- 45 minutes late.
 
She sounds pretty good. If you decide to go with PZI, it sounds workable. I am really impressed that she advocates hometesting; you'd be surprised how many vets don't. My vet didn't like Fancy Feast; she wanted us to go with the prescription food. I just said he wouldn't eat it. She and I just agreed to disagree on diet. It's frustrating when you have to wait; you might call the practice and express your frustration. Maybe there was an emergency (we can hope?) One other thing to keep in mind are hours and availability. I love my vet, but she is the sole vet in the practice and that was a problem for us when Oliver was first diagnosed. She just wasn't available over the holidays. Sounds like this vet might be more flexible if she is with PetSmart?

You have specific requirements - flexible schedule and flexible monitoring. You will be able to see on the Insulin forums how flexible people are able to be with the 3 insulins. I think you will feel better if you read and make your own decision.
 
the thing is, if you can learn to blood test the ear and get numbers on your own, there's no reason to test at the vet where the cat is stressed and probably won't eat as well. the numbers the vet gets under those circumstances will probably be too high.

i let my vet basically force me into it and my cat hypoed and fought them on even taking karo. they ended up shooting it all over her and she was sick all night. so my attitude is definitely that first you need a vet who will give you the prescription and second you need one who is willing to let you partner with her in managing your cat's diabetes. that includes home testing and not forcing you into expensive curves at the vet, even the first time your cat goes on insulin. the standard starting dose is going to be 1u to 2u every 12 hrs, so getting your cat started on the first day of insulin at home is not going to be rocket science. i'm guessing your vet will start your cat on 1u.

my cat was on both pzi vet and lantus. i like them both equally, unlike some others here. but now that we're talking prozinc instead of pzi vet i much prefer lantus. it's been around longer and the cats here go into remission on it. many cats. take a look at any of the OTJ videos you'll see on the Lantus Forum: it's something over 101 cats in the past year. the german diabetic cat group using lantus and levemir is also getting admirable results. if the vet is open minded enough, you can give her a link to the spreadsheets of the cats that have gone into remission on it.

as to lantus vs levemir i can't speak on them except to say more vets are familiar with lantus than lev and if you're going to be 30-40 min late occasionally that's no problem for a cat on lantus.
 
The vet doesn't sound too bad since he will sow how to home test. He might be OK if he allows a low-carb commercial food. The advantage with a script diet is that is is consistent while the commercial food can very. However, commercial food is fine. Regarding the wait, did they keep telling you your appointment was being delayed? Not infrequently appointments/emergencies take longer than expected.

I think either ProZinc or Lantus is OK. What I like about Lantus is that it is readily available. It also may be less expensive than ProZinc since a 10 ml vila of ProZinc contains only 400 units of insulin vice 1000 units in a 10 ml vial of Lantus. However, a 10 ml vial of Lantus probably will not be used up since it is likely to become ineffective before it is less than half gone. That is why a lot o people her buy the five pack of 3 ml Lanus cartridges or disposable pens.
 
chriscleo said:
the thing is, if you can learn to blood test the ear and get numbers on your own, there's no reason to test at the vet where the cat is stressed and probably won't eat as well. the numbers the vet gets under those circumstances will probably be too high..
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My husband told her that my cat's BC was 400 at the first vet and it did not really significatly go down whole day he was there, because of stress. His number at home was 269- over a 100 points less! She said that is understandable, but she still wants to do it. I'm beginning to wonder if she might be $$ motivated- with advising on PZI that she can sell, versus Lantus were she would make no income off of it... But maybe I'm too cynical.
 
I don't think it is not a bad idea to keep your cat for awhile after first starting insulin. In rare cases, there can be a reaction. You might be able to talk her into just having him there 3-4 hours or so. It doesn't sound like she isn't asking you to bring him back for curves or to keep him several days after starting insulin; she sounds like she is willing to accept your homestesting numbers. IMHO, this isn't a reason to cross her off your list.
 
This may be a minority opinion, but I can see an argument for giving the first insulin shot at the vet's, because there are (extremely rare) instances where a cat has been allergic to insulin and having the cat at the vet's if that occurs is generally a good thing.

Similarly, I would be willing to accept an argument for letting the vet curve the first day of insulin, in case the cat turns out to be super-sensitive to the insulin it's given. (I can't recall ever hearing of this being done, but I could accept it as an argument for letting it *be* done.)


That said, I agree that letting a vet do curves *after* the first day is generally a waste of money, and I certainly would not base any dosing decisions on a curve done at a vet's office. And if I have to leave my cat at the vet, for any reason, they're given pre-filled syringes to avoid any dosing accidents.
 
My cat just started on ProZinc and I like it. He hasn't had any severe dips... seems pretty smooth.

edited to add that he's home alone (with other cats) alot. I have been trying to go home over lunch to spot check but it hasn't really been necessary.
 
MicheleS said:
My cat just started on ProZinc and I like it. He hasn't had any severe dips... seems pretty smooth.

edited to add that he's home alone (with other cats) alot. I have been trying to go home over lunch to spot check but it hasn't really been necessary.
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Hi Michele,

How much are you paying for ProZinc and is it easy to obtain?

Eva
 
When my Webber was first diagnosed my vet talked to me about both PZI and Lantus. She mentioned that research has shown that newly diagnosed kitties have better chance of remission on Lantus. I came home and did alot of research on my own and decided that I wanted to start Webber off on Lantus. I called the vet and asked them what I needed to do to get the Lantus. Because the vet does not carry Lantus in their office (only PZI) I just asked her to write a prescription for me. Because it is a human insulin you can get the script filled anywhere.

SHe did insist that he stay for the day at the office for his first day on Lantus. I really did not want to do that because I knew that stress will raise the BG quite alot. I had already started practicing home testing and had some data to compare with what the vet was getting when he was at the office. His BG was ALWAYS much higher at the vet. But I gave in and took him for his first day on Lantus. I took in my spreadsheet, Lantus, syringes, food, treats and glucometer. I asked that they every time they perform a BG test they test with their glucometer and with mine. They were great and did do this.

She sent us home that night with instruction to give 4units of Lantus once a day. This is NOT the protocol for Lantus. Lantus is a twice a day insulin and you never start at that high of a dose. I think that my vet was telling me this because she is not used to the protocol for lantus nor how to give it.

At that point I had already spent so much time on the message board and learned SO MUCH that I took advice and started Webber out at 0.25units twice a day. It has almost been a month and some people are telling me that he may be off the insulin soon. Take a look at our spreadsheet link in my signature. Please take a look.

Lantus users are usually very strict and try to keep tight regulation because we want out babies to go into remission and not be on insulin forever.

I have no experience with PZI, but I am very pleased with Lantus and would not have had it any other way.
 
A couple of things....

1. Prozinc IS a PZI so it is a bit scary if she thinks they are separate; there is PZI BCP and Prozinc
2. Curves are absolutely not necessary to be done at the clinic if you are hometesting and if your cat is usually stressed.
3. A one hour wait is ridiculous in my opinion
4. Lots of vets are stuck on DM or MD, but to acknowledge it is higher in carbs and still recommend it? Huh? And does she really endorse WD?
5. It is very good that she is open to hometesting
6. It is a little puzzling that she is inflexible about lantus
7. Personality means a lot, so if you like her and think you can get her to work with you, then consider sticking with her but I do see some red flags here.
8. PZI does give you some flexibility with schedule whereas lantus has a bit less if I understand correctly. Neither is perfect for all cats, and you won't know until you try and there is nothing wrong with starting with PZI but neither is there if you start with lantus.

Does this help at all?
 
Will definetly need to read more on insulin types before making a decision. I'm looking for something that is safe with a cat who is home alone (with his feline "sister") a lot. Something that doesn't cause dramatic swings in BC but works steadily and effecively. And- some flexibility with a shot schedule would be a big plus. There might be days when we are 30- 45 minutes late.
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PZI is much more flexible than Lantus so if flexibility is what you need, there is one point in PZI's favor. You can't really know about dramatic swings until you start the insulin. Different cats respond to different insulins in different ways. How's that for a definitive statement? :)

My concern with what the vet told you is that ProZinc is PZI and has been designated as the official replacement for PZI Idexx, the form of PZI sold by vets. I'm wondering whether she means that she uses Vetsulin, another zinc-based insulin. Since PZI Idexx was discontinued, there has been come confusion about what vets mean when they say PZI. If I were you, I would call the clinic and clarify this.
 
PZI is more flexible in timing.

However, if you are only going to be varying the timing by 30 minutes or so, Lantus or Levemir should be ok too.

If you needed to be off by a couple of HOURS every day, then yes, PZI would be better.

I've used Humulin N, BCP PZI and currently Levemir.

If you're in Canada, you can buy insulin with no prescription.
 
Phoebe_Tiggy_Norton said:
If you're in Canada, you can buy insulin with no prescription.
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Just a minor adjustment--in Canada, you can buy HUMAN insulin with no prescription. That includes Lantus and Levemir, but not PZI.
 
Hi All and thank you for your informative responses.

So- the new developments are that today we started calling other vets in town to inquire if they would prescribe Lantus. And then the vet my Big Kitty saw yesterday called my husband, to see if we had any questions (which I think is a good sign). So my husband told her that we read Lantus may have a better chance of remission in newly diagnosed, and she AGREED TO PRESCRIBE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (which I think is a great sign). However, a few hours later, my husband got another call from the receptionist asking him "what was the name of this insulin you wanted?" Which I suppose is a very bad sign....If the vet does not know basic types of insulines, something is not right. But- my husband is saying that maybe it was just the receptionist who has no clue... Hmmmm...The drama continues. Why can't this be simple? Apparently 1 in 400 kitties is diabetic, it's not like this is some bizzare disorder that nobody heard off (especially a vet!!!!!!!!!!)

Overall, it seems like more pluses than minuses about this vet, but the not knowing the name really threw me off...

Eva
 
> However, a few hours later, my husband got another call
> from the receptionist asking him "what was the name of
> this insulin you wanted?" Which I suppose is a very bad
> sign....If the vet does not know basic types of insulines,
> something is not right

No, don't worry about this. Tell them that you want glargine (Lantus is the trade name).
 
Eva,

Vets are often inexperienced in using human insulins like Lantus and Levemir. When I went to get scripts for the free Lantus cartridges, my vet wrote one for Lantus and one for Lantus Solastar (I have 5 diabetic cats). The pharmacy could only fill the Solastar under the coupon.

Luckily, I went in and got what I needed for the second coupon before it expired. If I trusted them to call it in...oh well. And, this is a great practice. Just not up on insulins for cats. They kind of give me what I request because I've had two cats go into remission on Lantus. Also, my being diabetic for 30+ years helps. Not that I would wish that on any of you.

Eva, you really want the cartridges, not the vial. And the scrip must be written for the cartridges (Lantus SolaStar)! Lantus has a short shelf life - 28 days according to the literature once you open it. I find 45 days is possible. If you get a vial (10 ml), you will throw a lot of it away. The cartridges are 3 ml. Yes, the initial outlay is more, but you will save in the long run.

Good luck,

Claudia

(Edited to note that the script must be written for cartridges)
 
cjleo said:
Eva, you really want the cartridges, not the vial. And the scrip must be written for the cartridges (Lantus SolaStar)! Lantus has a short shelf life - 28 days according to the literature once you open it. I find 45 days is possible. If you get a vial (10 ml), you will throw a lot of it away. The cartridges are 3 ml. Yes, the initial outlay is more, but you will save in the long run.)
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Thank you, that is very good to know. I just hope she will know how to use Lantus. If she prescribes 4 units, I'll have a cow. cat(2)_steam
 
But, no matter what she prescribes, you will know to start low and go slow. You could look at this as an opportunity to educate yet another vet in homestesting, insulins and dosage. Think how many kitties you could save! From the posts I have seen over the past 4 years, most vets are not up to date on feline diabetes. But they often come around when they see our successes.
 
I think that if you like her and you feel she has an interest in learning about feline diabetes WITH YOU then she's a keeper.

The chance of finding a vet who is up to date on every illness that every kind of pet can get is 0. Yeah feline diabetes isn't that rare, but vets treat cats, dogs, birds, ferrets, snakes, etc.. nobody can keep up to date on all of that.

Remember that you are new to them too, they don't know you from the average "what? $500 surgery? no thanks, put them down" person that walks in their door (sad, but true :( ). You may find that she is more receptive to your research once she knows you aren't one of "those" people.

My cats' vet hospital is absolutely amazing. They don't always know everything, sometimes we flat out disagree.. but they will take the time to look into any information I bring in, are willing to say "I don't know".. know how much I love my cats, and also understand that ultimately my cats treatment is MY choice and they are there to guide me.

Also, how you feel about the techs is very important..They know everything that you need the vet for 98% of the time.. take them muffins, they really like it when I do that :).
 
- The vet office is attached to Pet Smart and thus very noisy
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This is a conversation that I really should stay out of but....I am assuming that this clinic is a Banfield-owned clinic?

Are there any other independently owned/run clinics in your area - other than one that uses large doses of N?

I am just looking to see if you have other choices rather than a Banfield clinic for future use.
 
Lisa dvm said:
- I am assuming that this clinic is a Banfield-owned clinic?
Are there any other independently owned/run clinics in your area - other than one that uses large doses of N?
I am just looking to see if you have other choices rather than a Banfield clinic for future use.
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Hi Lisa,

It is a Banfield pet hospital. Can you say more about your reservations...? I was planning to begin treatment there on Saturday...

Eva
 
Can you say more about your reservations...?
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Not in a public forum.

As I always say, everyone is free to do their own research and come to their own conclusions - a statement that I fully realize is of little help to you at this time.

All that said, I have no problems with you getting a script for Lantus asap and going forward with home testing.....so take a deep breath for now and simply consider your local options for future veterinary care.
 
I'm surprised that so many people in this thread jumped on the vet for stating a preference for ProZinc. The manufacturer provides vets with detailed information about dosing, onset of action, duration, etc. which makes the vet more comfortable in prescribing it. If the vet has the choice between an insulin about which she has a stack of info & a veterinary specialist on=call, and a human insulin she is not too familiar with, it's not unreasonable for them to choose the ProZinc. Besides the long-held idea in vetmed that animal-based insulins are better than human-based insulins for cats. She's rx'ing Lantus now in accordance with the OP's wishes anyway.

Re: Banfield, AFAIK, they have the reputation for "cookie cutter" treatments -- mgmt decides how the vets are to treat X, Y, and Z and the vets are supposed to follow. At least that is what former clients complain of. Also for over-vaccinating but I dont' remember what gave me that idea. I think that if you are (and it sounds like you are) a strong, informed advocate for your cat's welfare, it is not as great of a concern.
 
Jess, I totally agree with you both with respect to use of ProZinc and Bainfield. I think ProZinc is a very good insulin but is relatively expensive on a per unit basis. Regading Bainfield, I have personal experience but only the same hearsay that have received. However, it appears that Eva's vet is a very good one.
 
JJ & Gwyn said:
But, as PZI-Vet is no longer being made, I don't think it's a good choice for a newly-diagnosed cat.
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Why? ProZinc works just like PZI Vet and you said you liked PZI Vet! And that "one cat" had a reaction to it and you have not been able to point me to that post so I could follow up with that owner?

This whole line of argument that ProZinc has not been around long enough is bunk IMHO. It works just FINE! I think this is just the current "polite" way of dissing ProZinc and trying to add unneeded doubt into the argument.
Larry and Kitties said:
I think ProZinc is a very good insulin but is relatively expensive on a per unit basis.
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As for the "expensive" argument, I just found the real deal ProZinc for $80 for 10ml. Is that still "expensive"? When one adds in the cost of syringes and test strips etc, the cost of the insulin is minute! ProZinc also has a two year shelf life and is VERY stable - so when you add in the cost of expiring and mis-handled insulins of other varieties it way reduces the cost of manufactured PZI comparatively to other insulins.

OK now with that off my shoulders. I completely agree that your vet should be able to tell you what insulin is best for YOUR cat and your LIFE. Which insulin is best for the owner and the kitty. There are advantages with BOTH insulin and in an ideal world, your vet should be able to help you identify which insulin is the best for you and your kitty's specific situation.

That said, ProZinc is a good insulin and if you vet is uncomfortable with other insulins it might make sense to get the cat going with an insulin that you vet will prescribe and be willing to deal with and then potentially make a change down the line.

IMHO, ProZinc has disadvantages yes [just as all insulins do], but they are NOT because it has only been out for a short time [and "we just don't know enough about it] or that it is "expensive."
 
I said:
> But, as PZI-Vet is no longer being made, I don't think it's a good choice for
> a newly-diagnosed cat.

and Gator & H replied:
> Why? ProZinc works just like PZI Vet and you said you liked PZI Vet!

Because ProZinc is *not* identical to PZI-Vet. And, while most cats who transition appear to do fine, any time you change insulins, there is the possibility (probability, depending on the insulins involved) that you need to start regulating from scratch.

Rather than asking why *not* start with PZI-Vet, I ask: why bother regulating a cat on an insulin that's no longer being made and is increasingly hard to get, with the attendent risk that you might have to start over from scratch when you switch to a different insulin? Why not just start with that other insulin from the start? *That's* why I don't advocate PZI-Vet for a newly diagnosed cat.


> And that "one cat" had a reaction to it and you have not been
> able to point me to that post so I could follow up with that owner?

Well, gee, if I'd known there was going to be a quiz, I would've taken notes. /sarcasm.

Seriously, we're having a bunch of problems right now and I have better things to do at the moment than to search the archives for a post that doesn't directly affect either Gwyn or myself. /bluntness
 
JJ & Gwyn said:
*That's* why I don't advocate PZI-Vet for a newly diagnosed cat.... Because ProZinc is *not* identical to PZI-Vet.
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I wouldn't advocate PZI Vet for a newly diagnosed cat either because there is ProZinc that work just like PZI Vet.

Not identical? I'm not even sure how to approach that. I invite you to come into PZI land and look at the kitties SS that are on ProZinc and see if you think there is enough difference to be suggesting all the hand wringing. Maybe put a post in PZI Land asking for the SS of all the current ProZinc users?

Further, I have most of H's numbers while on PZI Vet and his current ProZinc numbers that I'd be happy to share with you or anyone [all be it we are not the best exemplum because H has more then just DM goings on].
 
Okay, let's start part of this over.

1]
JJ & Gwyn wrote:
But, as PZI-Vet is no longer being made, I don't think it's a good choice for a newly-diagnosed cat.
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Gator & H wrote:
Why? ProZinc works just like PZI Vet and you said you liked PZI Vet!
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In the above exchange, I read it as you taking exception to the fact that I would not recommend PZI-Vet for newbies, and that's what I responded to.

In re-reading the thread, I think that you quoted the wrong part of my initial post and were actually taking exception to the part where I said I that another possible insulin was ProZinc:

And there's ProZinc, which the manufacturer is touting as the replacement insulin for PZI-Vet. But it's only been on the market for ~11 weeks. There are several folks who like it and I know one person whose cat had a problem with it. Overall, I'd like to see more information about it before I'd choose it for my Gwyn (mostly because Gwyn has a history of having odd reactions to insulins).
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If you are asking my objections to ProZinc are, I re-iterate: it's been on the market for a comparatively short time. There just isn't the depth of knowledge about it that the more established insulins have gathered. For folks who want to try ProZinc and help gather that data, I applaud them. I'm not one of them.


2]
I'm not sure why you seem to think that I'm dissing ProZinc. I specifically state that ProZinc is among my second-place choices:
If I was starting out with a newly diagnosed cat today, I would probably opt for Levemir as my first choice, with Lantus, compounded PZI and ProZinc as my second choices.
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3]
The final area of disagreement seems to be here:

ProZinc is *not* identical to PZI-Vet.
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> Not identical? I'm not even sure how to approach that. I invite you to come into PZI land and look at the kitties SS that are on ProZinc and see if you think there is enough difference to be suggesting all the hand wringing.
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You are saying that the insulins produce similar (close to identical) effects in the cats you've looked at. I'm not disputing that.

I am saying that THE INGREDIENTS ARE DIFFERENT. Different ingredients *can* mean different reactions for those who are sensitive to those ingredients.

Since a product with large amounts of adverse reactions never makes it to market, it is only after a product has been on the market for some time that information about 'odd-ball' adverse reactions starts to be accumulated. Given that I have a cat who has had odd reactions to several insulins, I am extremely cautious about reactions to ingredients, and my preference is to wait some period of time for additional information to accumulate.

So again: my personal preference would be to have more information on ProZinc before I started a cat on it. That's my opinion, which I shared when the original poster asked folks for their opinions on available insulins. The fact that there is a groups of cats who started on or switched to ProZinc without problems, or that you yourself are less risk-adverse than I am does not make my opinion less valid.
 
JJ & Gwyn said:
For folks who want to try ProZinc and help gather that data, I applaud them. I'm not one of them. ... I am saying that THE INGREDIENTS ARE DIFFERENT. Different ingredients *can* mean different reactions for those who are sensitive to those ingredients.
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a) Thanks for the applause. :smile:
b) That's a pretty unfair remark that ProZinc users are data gatherers - to try to inject that into the debate and try to ratchet up the hand wringing. *tisk* *tisk*
c) I'm not trying to get you to switch to ProZinc.
d) The data has already been gathered in clinical settings. ProZinc has FDA approval for use in cats - that takes data. And the informal data continues to grow. As a user of Levimir I'm sure you can be sensitive to the lack of data available for Levimir?
e) Cats can have a reaction to ANY insulin so injecting doubt into the ProZinc topic is unfounded based on this line of reasoning. ALL insulins have different ingredients - this line of argument is just silly.

JJ & Gwyn said:
Given that I have a cat who has had odd reactions to several insulins, I am extremely cautious about reactions to ingredients, and my preference is to wait some period of time for additional information to accumulate.
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I understand your caution but perhaps it is not fair to treat every cat like Gwyn? ECID.

JJ & Gwyn said:
The fact that there is a groups of cats who started on or switched to ProZinc without problems, or that you yourself are less risk-adverse than I am does not make my opinion less valid.
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I'm not trying to make your points less valid. What I'm particularly objecting to is the injection of phantom reasoning against ProZinc [or other PZI] that would cause unneeded hand wringing and confusion in a newbie's decision process. There are disadvantages to every insulin and I would hope we could stick to the valid ones.
 
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