new user - newly diagnosed 15 yr old kitty

Status
Not open for further replies.
K

kikikitty

Member Since 2013
Hi there,

I was told my kitty Kiki (male/15) has diabetes. I noticed he was eating/drinking a lot lately, but we rushed him to the vet when he started having trouble walking. His glucose was at 18.4 (331) and had elevated levels elsewhere (urea/alp/alt/amylase/lipase) The vet took him in for 3 days to "flush" out his system and told us he might be okay with just a diet change. His results afterwards were better, but his glucose was still 17.9. He also apparently pooped and laid in it at the vet, because of this the vet wanted us to consider what kind of quality of life Kiki would have if we went forward with treatments.

However, Kiki was VERY happy to be home! He started purring and cleaning himself again and has not had one accident. He gets up (albeit shakily) to use his box, drink water and yesterday he followed me into the kitchen for food. He seems to be getting stronger. I have started him on low carb wet food only (Fancy Feast), even though the vet sold me some Purina DM in cans and wanted him to eat the DM dry food too. (I declined it, to the vet's shock) I also give him 1000mg of B12 dissolved in his food. I bought a glucose monitor (Accuchek Mobile) and have been checking his glucose 3 times a day. He seems to test higher in the morning (15's), lower in between (10-11's) and higher again at night (15's).

The vet I took him to wanted to take him in for glucose curves and twice a week blood checks as he starts insulin. I know I can home test him now (he doesn't even mind that much as long as he gets a piece of chicken) but I don't think this vet will go for this. I also don't like that he suggested we think about putting Kiki down before we spend even more money on him. I don't have that much money, it's true, but I can try and make this work with a co-operative vet.

What should I do? Try and work with the vet who treated him or take him elsewhere? Will another vet work with the lab results from the other vet, or want to re-do everything? We are located in West Toronto and do not drive. I have been reading a lot, but feel pretty alone/unsure about everything. I just want Kiki to get better and I think he needs insulin sooner than later. Sorry this is so long but any advice would be greatly appreciated.
 
Hello!
There are other people here more knowledgeable about the vitamin B treatment for the neuropathy. I'm sure they'll be along soon.
If you can, it might be worth calling around to other vets in your area. You may be able to find one who knows more about feline diabetes and who's more supportive of your home testing. My vet and I don't see eye to eye on everything, but she's VERY supportive of my home testing. Not only does it save me money, it gets her more accurate numbers since Chester is more relaxed at home. If you find someone who sounds more promising, you should be able to have your other vet records transferred over to the new vet.

Welcome aboard. Diabetes sounds scary, but it can be managed, and it doesn't have to break the bank.
 
You have found the right place.... and believe me, you are not alone and you will have the most knowledgeable people on the subject helping you. It seems that it' raining new cases, so the more experienced members may be a bit back logged, so keep up in your post, if you don't see a reply from a senior member soon, just bump it (reply to your own post and type bump) Hold tight, they'll get to ya soon :smile:
 
Hi and welcome to the family of sugarcats and the crazy people that cater to them. :-D

First congrats on already home testing as that is the biggest and most useful tool in your toolbox for treating diabetes at home.

Now you have one very big advantage with being in Canada is that you don't need your vet to write you a script for insulin, you can just walk into any pharmacy and get what you want. So a that is a big plus when you have a less than stellar vet.

The three best insulins for a cat are Lantus, Levemir and Prozinc (this one you may need to get from a vet as it is animal only) but the L's are human insulins that work very well in felines so you should have no problem finding them especially the Lantus.

Fancy Feast as long as it is the Classics is an excellent choice for a diet for Kiki and you should be able to just take the DM back to the vet and say Kiki won't eat it and get your money back. (most cats won't eat it after awhile as it is highly liver based).

Since you already have the diet change out of the way, and are already testing the next step is insulin. And depending on which one you pick we can help you figure out all the rest as far as dosing and adjusting that dose as well.

Since I'm in the US let me see if I can flag down a couple of our Canadian members so they can give you the run down on what is available where you are, the cheapest places to get things and maybe even a better vet suggestion or two.

Please be patient the board is usually a little slow right about now but I will work on finding you some local help. And again welcome to the family...Diabetes is a completely manageable disease so managable in fact that I adopted 2 diabetic kitties as diabetics even though I have 12 healthy and happy non diabetic kitties already.

Mel, Maxwell, Autumn & The Fur Gang
 
Hello there

Good news that you are in Canada because you can get a pack of 5 Lantus Solostar pens for $99 at Costco for a little more at Shoppers, Walmart or any pharmacy. No prescription required. Lasts up to six months. So if you cant find or get to a new vet, you can go it alone without him. Once you get the insulin, we can advise on dosing etc.

I use fancy feast pates - I shop around Pet valu, pet smart and so on and rarely pay more than 68c a can. Walmart.ca sometimes have good deals and free shipping too. Friskies pates might be cheaper but my guys wont eat them.

If you are home testing can you set up a spreadsheet so we can take a look at the results? heres how:http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=18207

I am not sure how much you are paying in strips but if you get them in Shoppers you can collect points to offset the cost. Instead though I use a bayer contour USB because I buy the strips on ebay for under $40 for 100. You can get a free bayer contour USB meter and 25 strips if you go to http://www.bayerdiabetes.ca/BDoffer and use code "BDS 11-14" And then if you register the meter you get a free USB wall charger.

Wendy
 
Some of the liver markers may indicate that fat was breaking down to supply calories and the liver was stressed. You might consider the supplement Denmarin for cats to help it recover.

Provide these http://www.felinediabetes.com/AAHADiabetesGuidelines.pdf AAHA Guidelines and say you're sure he's busy and has to know a lot of diseases in a lot of species, so it would be difficult, if not impossible to stay current on everything.

If you decide to go vet shopping, see my signature link Vet Interview Topics for questions to ask.

See my signature link Secondary Monitoring Tools for tactics of urine ketone testing. Ketones ocurr when fat is broken down; a high level may signal diabetic ketoacidosis (DKA) a potentially fatal complication of unregulated diabetes that is expensive to treat.
 
Thanks for the quick and helpful replies! I feel less anxious and confused already. :)

I am glad to find out that insulin is easy to get in Canada, the vet told me I had to get it from him and that most vets use different kinds. My brother has a Costco membership and luckily it is close by. Right now I am using the Accuchek Mobile which has cartridges that automatically dispense the strips. Unfortunately, even at Costco the cartridges are $85 for 2. Thanks for the link for the free tester, I think I'll order it and switch once I get more used to home testing. The lancet pen that came with my machine is mostly useless, I have tried it on his ear and back pad and it takes several clicks. I think I should just get a box of lancet needles.

Denmarin sounds like a milk thistle supplement, I will definitely look into getting some for Kiki. Also the vet did an urine sample and Kiki didn't have any ketones at that time, but I was thinking of ordering some testing strips online to check in the future. I don't have a spreadsheet yet but I will work on one and definitely have it ready for when he starts insulin. For now I can type out what kind of readings I have been getting, I have only been testing for a few days.

I feed him and test him at 12pm and 12am, with a snack (little bit of wet food or chicken) and test at 6pm. I am mostly practicing for when he needs insulin, as there is no way I am blind injecting him. His two tests at the vet were 18.8 and 17.4. (Sorry for the values, I know it's different in the US. I can convert them if it helps?) His chart looks kinda like this:

3/5 12pm - 1 can of Fancy Feast pate
6pm (first test!) chicken as a treat BG: 11.8
12am - FF pate BG: 14.8
3/6 12pm - 1 can Special Kitty pate BG: 15.4
6pm - crab as a treat BG: 10.5
12am - FF pate BG: 17.3 (stressed out a bit)
3/7 12pm - Special Kitty pate BG: 15.7
6pm chicken as a treat BG: 10.6
12am FF pate BG: 16.4 (stressed)

I am not sure how this vet will react to me telling him I want to do home testing, I have a feeling he will say it is not accurate enough for a successful curve, but I can try. There is another vet that is close to me, I guess it won't do any harm to ask there what their typical protocol for diabetes is. If anyone does know of a vet in the West Toronto/Etobicoke area that approves of home testing please let me know.

Thanks everyone for welcoming me and for all your help so far. I have some anxiety issues and making the first post took a little courage. But I'm glad I did it! :smile:
 
We're glad you did too!

I am not sure how this vet will react to me telling him I want to do home testing, I have a feeling he will say it is not accurate enough for a successful curve, but I can try.
Click to expand...
He might say that. But he'd be wrong :-)

Carl
 
Some of the ebay vendors offer free lancets with your strips although they are smaller gauge so you will need to get used to testing first. The only thing is to make sure they are a reputable vendor and check the expiry date of the strips before you buy.

Many of us are used to international measurements so dont worry, we can read them. Once you get a spreadsheet set up, the automatic colour coding will help make it even easier. Do you need help setting one up? I can ask another member to help you if you like?

Anyway his levels are definately high enough to merit insulin. How many days has it been since you moved him to wet food?

I know a good vet in forest hill animal clinic that advocates home testing - too far?

Wendy
 
I'm not sure what they fed him at the vet, but he has been on wet food only since Monday. His numbers have been going down this weekend without starting insulin yet! Today he tested at 11.4, 8.0 and 10.4. I wonder if it will continue to go down if I give him a few more days? I will be speaking to the vet he saw and one closer to me on Monday anyway though.

I was having some issues opening the spreadsheet template, I'm going to try it on another browser.

Unfortunately Forest Hill is much too far for us to travel right now as we don't drive (none of my friends drive either) and Kiki hates being in the car and complains the whole way.
 
They might well continue to come down. We don't recommend newbies shoot under 200 (11.11) anyway so it would be good to keep testing and watching. Feed him frequent but mini meals to help support his pancreas and let us know how he gets on. If you are lucky he will continue to drop into the normal range.
 
Hi and welcome :)

Something you have to keep in mind is that Kiki is your cat, not your vet's, and what you do (or don't do) in his treatment is ultimately your decision. If your vet refuses to help you because you won't home test... please RUN, don't walk, and find a new vet. :o

Other than that, though, you can trust FDMB with all your diabetes treatment advice. While vets have to know a ton of things about all kinds of animals, we specialize in feline diabetes and we live and breathe it, 24/7/365. We know the tried and true treatments, and also how to keep Kiki safe. And all of our advice is from vet specialist research and articles (ie. Dr. Pierson, Rand & Roomp, etc. :)

His numbers are looking good, still a bit higher than an OTJ kitty, but keep testing and see what happens!
 
We had a bit of a setback - Kiki stole some kibble from his brother and sister's bowl while I was asleep. It's amazing that he can jump up to where their bowl is again after less than a week of b12, but the little kibble he ate shot his BG up to 18! I am working on switching the other two to wet food too (they're 15 and 16) but they still get some kibble left out overnight. Luckily, Kiki tested at 8 again this afternoon. It would be really great if he could get to a normal number without insulin!

Also I put up his SS, I don't know if I filled it in right though.

I know Kiki is my cat, but I am having a hard time finding a vet I trust since the vet we used to go to retired from his practice. We had a horrible experience with the vet who replaced him and won't be back. The vet who diagnosed Kiki seems very reasonable though, so maybe he can be convinced that home testing will work for us.
 
You don't need to persuade your vet... You can do whatever you want at home.. It's your cat.

The SS is pretty good, but you need to fill your dates on the left. And put the dose in column C for the mornings dose, and column O for the evenings dose. But since you aren't giving insulin yet just put 0IU in there.

It would be good to get him controlled without insulin , and definitely without dry food!!
 
Hello there

I see you are still testing. How is Kiki feeling? I am guessing you still havent started insulin? Those numbers do still seem a little high. Perhaps you want to test his urine for glucose. If you see any then he is actively diabetic and will need treatment as his kidneys are working overtime to dump the sugar into his pee which will damage his organs long term. You can get diastix in any pharmacy - probably walmart is cheapest .

Wendy
 
Hi
You are doing the right things--and I didn't have time to read everyone's comments--but PLEASE dump your vet. If he would even suggest that you kill you cat simply because he pooped in the wrong place--well that is an unethical and ignorant vet. If, in fact, your cat had incontinence you could get baby diapers for cheap and cut a tail hole and use those and ;your at would be perfectly happy--if this vet things that pooping in the wrong place is a bad QOL for your cat then I assume he is going to also kill his own parents when they have to wear adult diapers.

sheesh, but a jerk. good for you for refusing the DM.

anyway, that's my 2 cents. but good luck, you're kitty will get better. My Fred got diagnosed at 15 years old and lived till just past 20--db for 5 years and he was a loved and happy kitty, despite--in the last few months, wearing diapers.

Martica
 
Sorry I didn't reply sooner, my internet has been spotty this week. I have been testing him and updating his SS though. He tests under 11 most times and under 8 six hours after a meal. Since I was not aware he could reach the other cat's dry food, I gave him another week to see if things lowered without insulin. The dry food has been on complete lockdown since.

No insulin yet but good news is, Kiki is feeling a lot better and acting like himself again. Bad news of that is, he does not like me testing him and is starting to put up a fight. He is totally fine once the lancets and tester is away though. Is it best to always test before he eats? I noticed when he gets some of his meal while testing the results are higher. I received the Bayer contour USB with the free strips but I haven't been able to get one reading from it yet, it always reports not enough blood. I watched a video how to use the meter and I still can't get one reading. I'm almost out of tests on the Accuchek cartridge and I wanted to switch to the Bayer. His ears are looking a bit beat up and I have many decorative scratches now.

Oh and he is JUMPING in and out of his litter box happily now, and starting to walk properly on his toes again.

He tested positive for glucose in his urine at the vet when he was admitted but a repeat urine test was not done before he left. I guess I will get some test strips and report back?
 
Always give a low carb treat at testing, even if unsuccessful.

Neosporin ointment, not cream, with pain relief may be applied to the ear a few minutes before testing, then wiped off to test. That reduces the annoyance of testing, helps the blood bead up, and helps the prick heal.

You can catch the blood drop on a clean fingernail and test from there.

If you absolutely must get blood, you may aim for the vein. It may bleed profusely, so be prepared to get the sample for testing and blot the hole asap to reduce bruising.
 
Here are some testing tips https://docs.google.com/document/d/13c_CPZVKz27fD_6aVbsguadJKvjSrSAkD7flgPPhEag/pub but knowing the contour meter i suspect you just aren't getting enough blood, although the new meters are supposed to allow second chance testing to add more blood ( I am still waiting on my free meter). So Make sure you warm the ear really well and maybe even do two small pokes beside each other instead of one.

Btw you can't get neosporin in Canada so get the polysporin ointment with pain relief instead.
 
Thanks for the tips! I didn't know I could test blood off my fingernail instead of only directly off his ear. I actually just bought some of the Loblaw's house brand ointment with pain relief and it's seeming to help. Also I quit using the lancing device, it seems he really hated the clicking noise.

I managed to test him with the Contour today but it got completely different results compared to the Accuchek both times. I tested with each machine one after the other (same blood drop) and got the following results:

12pm
Accuchek 14.7
Contour 10.7

6pm
Accuchek 11.0
Contour 7.8

Is it possible that the Accuchek always tests much higher? I know the Bayer Contour is trusted by a lot of people, so maybe its results are closer to what his BG values are? I only have 5 tests left with the Accuchek Mobile, should I ditch it for the Contour?
 
Meters vary from each other. I wouldnt worry about it. They tend to get more similar at lower numbers for some reason. Just mark the meter change on your SS so we know.

How long has he been off the dry now? Have you tested his urine for glucose? I am wondering how he is doing and whether he needs to start on a little insulin just to help his pancreas out a bit.

Wendy
 
I've only been testing about a week. I had a hard time getting enough blood the first few times. I got hissed at too. Now she's a saint and it doesn't bother her at all.

Here's what worked for me.

*I test mostly on the back side of the ear, the fur side. But you can do either side.
*I rub her ear between my fingers to warm it up for a minute or two
*Neosporin on both sides of the ear.
*I take a cotton ball and place it inside the ear and smooth the ear taught against it following the curve of the cotton ball.
*I aim for the tiny 1-2mm area between the vein and the outside of the ear. Almost at the very edge.
*I free hand the lancet, I never got the poker apparatus to work right and it's too hard to aim in such a small area.
*I aim down to the ear at a slight angle from top to bottom, not perpendicular to the ear.
*Once I poke, if I don't see blood right away, I take my fingernail and scrape it up the vein from the base of the ear towards the tip to try and make the blood come to the surface and bead up.
*I wait until there is a visible round drop before I touch the meter to it.

I am using the size 26 ReliOn lancets from Walmart. They say "Thin". The Ultra Thin ones came with the machine, but I'm not using those yet.
 
I think he hates having his ear held/squeezed (like with the tissue), he will whine before I even poke him! It does help to test him on the furry side of the ear though.

He has been on wet food only for 2 weeks since he last stole some kibble. I am giving the other cats wet food now too, his big brother will ONLY eat Whiskas pate which has dried yam in it and he tries to steal that too. Does anyone know anything about the President's Choice "extra meaty" cat food? I don't see any added carbs (rice or corn ect) but it comes in the huge economy size cans so I haven't tried giving Kiki any yet. I can only find fish flavoured Fancy Feast pates at Wal Mart/No Frills and I know he needs a varied diet. I cooked him some chicken hearts as treats and he likes them too.

Kind of an overall update on how he's doing.
good things:
- He is walking 99% on his toes now and doesn't fall over or stumble. (Maybe the B12 is working? He gets 1 tab dissolved in his food twice a day)
- His coat is less dull/greasy and I don't see any dandruff.
- No litter box related accidents
- He can clean his back and tail again and pulls out clumps himself (he will NOT let me groom his back end!).
- He is not sleeping as much as he used to
- He is more cuddly and runs to sit with me after he eats

bad things
- He is still peeing a little too much (makes the clumping litter sticky) but doesn't hang out at the water dish any more
- Still getting litter stuck in his back toes occasionally
- Not purring as much as he used to still
- His blood sugar is still too high in the morning (9-10) and probably still too high at 5-6 at night
- Has started gagging (but no vomit) when it gets too long between meals (mostly before his first test of the day). If I feed him he doesn't gag again and holds all his food down.

I'm not sure how much to feed him because he is overweight. He lost several pounds (not that I could notice) from the diabetes but he was still 17 lbs at the vet. The lightest I ever got him too was 16 lbs, but that was on dry food a few years ago. Right now he gets 2 cans of the FF split into 4 meals, plus a freeze dried chicken treat or a chicken heart here or there. I don't want to underfeed him but losing weight properly from a diet change and exercise will help his diabetes too. He is not boney anywhere and feels like he still weighs a good 15-16 pounds. (His brother and sister are normal weight)

I tried to get the Diastix but was told they were sold out? The other pharmacy said they didn't carry them. I ordered some online but they haven't arrived yet. I think I should maybe get him started on insulin this week? I don't want him to get sicker again.
 
Seems like your and him are doing good.
I would weight him weekly to see if you should be feeding more or less to slowly drop his weight to the desired weight. Two cans of FF a day seems like too little but each cat is different.
With lower BGs the urination volume should go down.
 
I have been giving him more food lately (3 cans and a bit/day) but his BG is getting higher again. I also tried giving him some new food (a Sobeys FF knockoff in meat varieties, no gravy, no starches/corn ect listed) so it might be the problem? I guess it's back to the FF fish pates only for awhile. He hasn't been below 7 in a week, and before he was occasionally testing at 5/below 5.

He still seems to be improving (more purring and grooming yay!) but I'm worried about him as he seems stuck at 7/8 at any time during the day. He is also peeing too much still (but not drinking/whining for food).

Should I try to get him some insulin this week? I don't want him to damage his kidneys. :( I am home most of this week so I can watch him/do a curve/check the boards.
 
I wouldnt trust the sobeys knockoff... it could well be the issue. You can get FF from Pet value , Petsmart or walmart usually for under 68c. And often they run deals. ie until April 21st by Pet Valu is selling them at 60c. Or you can use friskies pates since they are bigger cans and cheaper.
 
The thread that suggests food says the Sobeys cat food and some of the President's Choice (which I feed his brother and sister) are good choices and may have better ingredients than the FF? This is what I thought when I read the box before buying it (more whole meat listed first, no starches ect.) but I'm not going to give him any more of the Sobeys pates for now just in case. (I was giving him their 'ultra gourmet" one in the tiny cans like FF.) I managed to find some beef and liver/chicken FF, but I wish they had the meat pates in cases like the fish ones and the grilled FF. Since he eats 3 cans a day now and I don't have a car, it's easier for me to get a couple of the small cases at a time.

I can get Friskies pate easily and cheaper(Walmart online), but every Friskies pate I have read has rice listed as an ingredient (even the seafood ones), have they changed formulas or is it small enough amounts its okay? For example, Chicken Dinner Pate is listed being low carb on Janet's International List, but has rice in it. http://www.petvalu.com/in-our-store/pro ... ken-dinner

In other news, even though he is testing high (10's and 12's :( ), he is super happy the past few days. He wants to sit with me more and was purring/chatting while I tested him because he was excited for his treat. He even started running around the house a bit and we noticed even though he is still a chubby kitty, he does not waddle anymore. I was wondering if the stormy weather of this week was making him nervous and spiking his BG, but he seems so happy it doesn't seem the wind/hail/thunderstorms are bothering him at all.
 
Petsmart Canada is selling fancy feast at 51c right now. Maybe just for the weekend. thats a great deal - best i usually get is 55c so I am going to stock up today.(check their website to see) However you need to get their petperks card (which is free membership card thing).

I dont buy the cases because they have high carb flavours in, I just buy them individually. I get a small pallet of 24 same flavour thats wrapped in clear plastic wrap - $12.24 right now cos of the 51c a can . Much cheaper than those variety packs that are usually around $8 and only have 12 in them!

Friskies pate is supposed to be low carb - I guess there cant be that much rice in it.

Good news that his BG is coming down.
 
Thanks so much for the tip on the sale! I do have a Pet Perks card and the use of a Metropass this weekend. Kiki will be excited about all the different pate flavours I'm gonna get him, haha.

Also he tested at 7.9 this morning, which is low for him at that time, he's usually above 8 for his first test of the day. I'm going to check him at +6 to see what he's at then too.
 
Re: rice in Friskies

Chemists have a saying "The dose makes the poison" ie, the amount determines the effect.
If you get the pates, the amount is nominal - just helps hold it together a bit. It still has less than 10% calories from carbohydrates.

Now, if the cat is actually allergic to rice, don't feed it.
 
Looking at your spreadsheet, it looks like you have not started insulin yet. Is that correct? In the units column on the SS, you have 0.00 for every day. Some of those BG numbers are getting high and it may be time to start with some insulin.

Can't tell where you are but there is a Lantus Saviings Card program for the Lantus Solostar pen. Here is the link:http://www.lantus.com/considering/save-on-lantus/default.aspx

Lantus is a good insulin and this offer will allow you to purchase 6 pens at $25 each. You'll need to find a pharmacy that will let you buy a single pen at a time, since they come in a 5 pack.

Good luck and let us know if you have any more questions.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top