New to this forum and new to cat diabetes

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Diana&Tom said:
Actually the label also says derivatives of vegetable origin, and various sugars - these things can elevate bg so if you feed this don't be surprised to see a bit of a spike
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So even if the carb value is lower it still might not be any good for him and might still make his glucose high cause of the other things?

It is... It's all very confusing. Thinking I'm just stressing a little at the moment now as we've took crunchies off him so I want to make sure I'm feeding him as much as what he needs while doing the best for him and not making him worse. I hope this food work ok as I'm looking for something I can swap all my cats into to make it easier.
Would the butcher's choice one be any better?
 
PS sorry got distracted with something else and didn't really answer your question about alternating foods. Many people feed their cats different brands/flavours in rotation so it's a question really of finding a few varieties that a cat will eat and getting them used to those foods. It's a sudden change that might upset them a bit.

And yes, even if the carb value stated on the label looks ok, the food *might* raise bg due to "various sugars". Some cats will spike easily on some foods, others may not. It's worth a try and you can keep a note of bg numbers and see what happens.

I know it's stressful, we've all been there and we do understand. But you are doing well, really. Taking the dry away was a huge step forward, and you're making a start with low carb wet foods. As long as you give him enough of this to compensate for the lack of crunchies and ensure he's nor hungry, this is fine. You are certainly not making him worse, don't think that. Even if there are ingredients in the Sainsburys food that turn out to cause a little spike, it's still better than the dry.

Butchers Choice may be better, I'll see if I can find it online.
 
Ok thank you so much.
I have 12 cans of this Sainsbury's food now so I'll see how I get on with this one.
Think butcher's choice from the looks of it doesn't have any vegetable or various sugars in it.

So glad I found this site it's really useful speaking to people who deal with this day to day ☺️
 
https://groceries.morrisons.com/web...VwrDtCh1Z8QQCEAQYASABEgKSHPD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

This is the Butchers Choice which is probably a good bet. Very reasonably priced, higher meat content and no "various sugars" . I don't think it's available in all supermarkets though - this link is from Morrisons. Sainsburys used to do it but IDK if they still do. So if you want to give it a go you may have to shop around.

I think what I'd do now is this... try the Sainsburys food (gradually) with all your cats. Monitor Sox's bg a couple of hours after he's eaten some of it. If it doesn't cause his bg to rise steeply and unexpectedly, fine, you should be able to continue feeding it. If it looks as if it causes a spike, feed it to the other cats and try Sox on Butchers instead, which is less likely to cause an issue. When switching from one brand to another either mix a little of both together to start with, or try mixing some of the new food with a little plain cooked chicken over a couple of days and that should be ok.

You'll get there sooner than you think... look how much you've taken on board in the last few days alone :)
 
Okie dokie. Not the butcher's classic then? Think that one is just a 4% meat one.

Will do. I've mixed abit of the Sainsbury's one in his food tonight. So I'll test him first thing when I get up in the morning.

I'm hoping so .still looks like a lot to learn though I'm sure I'll get there ☺️
 
Choice/Classic, are they different? Sorry, not sure about that, I just found the one above. Will revisit tomorrow, it's my bedtime now!
Get a good rest and we'll see what tomorrow brings ;)
 
Becki and sox said:
https://www.ocado.com/webshop/produ...aHQhIcVMw2PYoYHmMkleAq7VgUka0O-xoCcqgQAvD_BwE

Lol. Yeah there's 2 different one. This is what I've looked at ☺️
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I think we'll have to call in our food expert @Elizabeth and Bertie here! I didn't know there were both Choice and Classic brands. Have never fed these to my cats as I find the smaller pouches or trays more convenient, but that's not to say I don't like the look of the contents. Butchers does have a good reputation for having no icky ingredients and it's very cheap for some reason. I don't know about the variety packs though, from what I can see there may be more fish than you'd like.
@Elizabeth and Bertie ? What do you reckon?
 
Diana&Tom said:
Choice/Classic, are they different? Sorry, not sure about that,
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Becki and sox said:
Lol. Yeah there's 2 different one. This is what I've looked at
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The 'Butcher's' foods get quite confusing... :confused:

The one that always seems to be readily available in the UK is the 'Butcher's Classic'.
But they seem to produce other foods from time to time that are around for a while and then disappear. 'Butcher's really meaty' and 'really fishy' are still around in some places, and are lower carb than the 'Butcher's Classic'. But the 'really meaty/really fishy' are no longer on the manufacturer's website... There was also 'Butcher's Choice' which seemed to come and go...
And there are now two cat foods on the website that are only available on one online store in the UK where postage starts at £12.... I'm guessing they are selling more to mainland Europe now; and they also seem to be expanding their dog food range, so maybe they are focussing in that area..?

Anyway, I'm rambling.... :oops:

The Sainsbury's food looks fine in terms of % calories from carbs. ...Yes, it does contain 'various sugars', as so many cat foods do these days. The extent to which that affects the kitty's blood glucose may depend on the cat's sensitivity to carbs. It really can be a matter of 'trial and error' to find out what works for the individual kitty...
But the Butcher's Classic is well worth a try also. It's been used by UK'ers for over a decade here, and used to be one of the few reliable low carb foods around.

Becki, since the blood glucose is creeping up I'd suggest getting Sox onto a low carb wet food as soon as poss, over a few days maybe; and see how that brings the numbers down over the following few days.
The longer your kitty sits in high blood glucose levels the harder it can be to get it back into a normal range. The cells of the body get damaged by 'glucose toxicity' which makes it hard for the cells to absorb glucose from the blood. The more damaged they are the longer they take to heal, and the harder it can be to heal. And meanwhile the glucose is building up in the blood, unable to get into the cells.
I think it's 'crunch time' to see whether the blood glucose will come down sufficiently with low carb diet alone, or whether insulin will be needed. If it turns out that insulin is needed at least you'll have had time and opportunity to see what your kitty's baseline blood glucose level is on a low carb diet. And that is useful info to have when deciding insulin dosage.

It can be helpful - if you are able - to feed smaller meals more often, rather than just feeding a couple of larger meals. This stimulates the recovering pancreas to produce insulin without overwhelming it with too much to do at any one time.

Eliz
 
@Elizabeth and Bertie

Thank you for that. I started on the sainsburys food last night mixing it in with his food so I'm hoping he should be on that one completely in the next couple of days.
So you think I'm ok to trial the Sainsbury's one for now. How long would you say to try it before maybe making the switch to butcher's if it's not working?
Thank you
 
Becki and sox said:
@Elizabeth and Bertie

Thank you for that. I started on the sainsburys food last night mixing it in with his food so I'm hoping he should be on that one completely in the next couple of days.
So you think I'm ok to trial the Sainsbury's one for now. How long would you say to try it before maybe making the switch to butcher's if it's not working?
Thank you
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Elizabeth may be able to explain this better than I can, but in a nutshell: how long it takes to find out whether a particular food is "working" or not (ie drops bg or not) is really a matter of how much data you can collect to compare bg whilst being fed that food compared with bg before being fed that food. At present you're not testing a lot because you don't need to as you're not giving insulin. But you do want to find out if the Sainsbury's food, initially, will lower bg. So if you can, you could do a mini curve today and see what bg is like at certain points in a 12-hour cycle. Ideally, test before feeding and then one hour and two hours later and maybe halfway through the day. That will give you an idea as to whether this food is causing a spike. If you do this say today and tomorrow you'll get a general picture of how bg is affected by this food. If the food shows a steep spike, probably caused by the sugars etc, then you may need to try another food without sugars - say one of the Butcher's - and repeat the testing exercise. If Butchers turns out not to cause a steep spike, you can settle for that for a few days and then you'd know if bg is still high enough to warrant insulin.

As I think I said earlier, this is all trial and error and it does take time. We often say here that we wish we had a magic wand to make things easier but in the absence of such, it's a matter of working gradually towards the best outcome possible for your individual cat... I say your individual cat because every cat is different and may metabolise food and insulin in different ways. So we can provide guidelines but it's up to individual caregivers to work out what's best for their cat.

So the stage you're at is really collecting data to make comparisons on different foods, and is will take time because you need to give each food at least a couple of days before moving on to another one.

Let's see if Elizabeth can add anything to this.
 
Great thank you. It's just really hard for me to do bloods through the day as I work 9 to 5 Monday to Friday I will be attempting the curve on Sunday as I have the whole day in the house then so can give it a good go. ☺️
 
So I managed to finish work early today.
I tested Sox when I got in and his BG was at 15.1 (271.8) (at 2.45pm) so had lowered from its 17 (306) when tested at 7am this morning.
I then fed some food.
BG at 3.50pm 15.9 (286)
BG at 4.50pm 16.8 (302)
Was hoping to get another test in before bed time but I only have one strip left and my Amazon order of strips has not arrived yet which was ment to be here yesterday
Just wondering what people think of those readings is that a normal increase after eating?
 
Becki and sox said:
So I managed to finish work early today.
I tested Sox when I got in and his BG was at 15.1 (271.8) (at 2.45pm) so had lowered from its 17 (306) when tested at 7am this morning.
I then fed some food.
BG at 3.50pm 15.9 (286)
BG at 4.50pm 16.8 (302)
Was hoping to get another test in before bed time but I only have one strip left and my Amazon order of strips has not arrived yet which was ment to be here yesterday
Just wondering what people think of those readings is that a normal increase after eating?
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Yes it's normal to see a bg increase after eating so no surprise there. It looks as if Sox might have a "default" number in the mid teens which isn't too bad really (some diabetics are way up in the 20s most of the time).
Running out of strips is only an emergency when you're giving insulin and need to test pre shot, but this does show you that you'll need to keep stocked up. Many people buy strips on ebay which is usually cheaper.
See what happens when you get some more strips and can test over the course of a day. The Sainsburys food could be spiking bg a bit so it would be interesting to see a curve on Butcher's.
Don't worry too much - you're going as fast as you can go atm and as we've said, the testing process and the data you're collecting is all useful if you do end up having to give insulin.
 
I've just received my order yay.
So will do 1 more test before feeding tonight. Then will do a full day curve on Sunday when I'm in all day.

Glad to see that it's quiet normal to go up then after eating.
Hoping that default number might creep a little lower again back to the 10.5 I got previously. ☺️

Edited last reading of the day 8.50pm BG 18.6 (334)

Do you tend to find BG is always higher morning and night?
 
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Becki and sox said:
https://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats/canned_cat_food_pouches/rafine/animonda_carny_adult/585477

Im actually looking into these foods. Are these good? I can't seem to find the sugar content in them?
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At the bottom of this page, click on Ingredients:

https://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats/canned_cat_food_pouches/rafine/animonda_carny_adult/585477

Animonda is a good brand. I fed my cat their von Feinstein variety until recently - I had to stop it because she loved it so much she gobbled up a whole tray at a time and asked for more!
 
Just checked on Elizabeth's food list which says that this food has 7.8% cals from carbs.
It's all beef-based food though - are your cats ok with that? Some are allergic. Generally speaking, cats tend to do best on a poultry based diet, usually easy to source and and you can vary with other foods as and when of course.
 
Becki and sox said:
None of my cats are overly fussy they eat pretty much anything lol
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Actually I was going to suggest Animonda if you were willing to buy from Zooplus, because I thought they did some big tins that might suit your multi-cat household.
I see Diana has already mentioned that they are beef-based (which can be an issue for some kitties). But if your kitties are OK with beef this food could be a good bet for you.

Another Zooplus food that may be of interest to you is Bozita. Bozita is chicken-based, I think. Both the cans and the tetrapacks 'in jelly' have been tried by UK'ers with diabetic kitties. The cans are are more solid, the tetrapacks have more jelly/water.
The Bozita foods are here if you want to take a peek:
https://www.zooplus.co.uk/esearch.h...=Category_facet%3D1%3A1Cat%3EWet%20Cat%20Food

Just don't buy anything in bulk initially because your cats will know somehow and then refuse to eat it, haha! :p
.
 
Great thank you @Elizabeth and Bertie

Do you recommend anything as well to stop kitties ears getting to sore from testing like any cream to rub on.

So much to learn about this feline diabetes but thanks to every one on here I think I'm starting to understand it ☺️
 
Morning guys so I'm starting my curve today.
Sox has been mixed over to the Sainsbury's food which last night was the first full bowl of that meat on its own. So today will be his first proper day eating just that.
This morning he measured BG 19.7 (354) which has been the highest reading I've took off him during the last week. (I have just wondered though if he may be abit stressy due to fireworks going off in the night)
@Elizabeth and Bertie @Diana&Tom my question is should I give the Sainsburys food a bit longer to get used to or should I after today start swapping to butcher's classic?
Thanks guys
 
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Well I wouldn't chop and change food too quickly really, although it's good that your cats seem to eat anything. It looks as if the Sainsbury's food with sugars is spiking bg so if you have some Butcher's already you could mix some of that with some of the existing food and see if that makes a difference. If bg is still well into double figures you may have to prepare yourself for giving insulin. As we have said, it's not good for bg to stay high and for the diabetes to remain untreated so if numbers can be brought down with insulin you may have to go down that road as your next option.
 
Yeah possibly I was hoping that we could really go diet route cause I cant really see how we will be able to afford the insulin from how I've heard people talk about the cost. We've been given an initial set up fee of 300 pound .
How much average is it a month for the insulin and supplies. I know it differs due to the amount of insulin but a ball park figure would be great
 
£300 sounds excessive, you can buy supplies online much more cheaply than getting them from the vet.
 
I have attached the paperwork with break down given from the vets
 

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Becki and sox said:
This morning he measured BG 19.7 (354) which has been the highest reading I've took off him during the last week. (I have just wondered though if he may be abit stressy due to fireworks going off in the night)
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Becki, it's a shame to see those numbers coming up. ...Did Sox seem particularly stressed by the fireworks?

Becki and sox said:
Morning guys so I'm starting my curve today.
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Would be good to get some numbers at points through the day. But it won't technically be a 'curve' because that is a series of tests to see how the insulin works in the cat's system over a (usually) 12 hour period.

When not on insulin, it is useful to see how the cat responds to food. What is the number like before food? An hour after? Two hours after? Does the blood glucose go up a little or a lot after food? Does it go down rather than go up? You may see an initial rise and then a drop if the cat's body is releasing insulin.
The numbers seem to be trending upwards though, quite different to how things seemed to be looking at the outset... Personally, I'd try him on the Butcher's food for a day and see if that brings the numbers down. But even if the numbers do come down it seems likely at this point that insulin is going to be needed...

Because Sox's numbers are creeping up it would be wise to check his pee for ketones. Lack of insulin or insufficient insulin can cause ketones to be produced, and these can build up to cause a very dangerous condition called DKA (diabetic ketoacidosis).
The test is simple and only involves dipping the end of a ketone test strip ('Ketostix') into a drop of pee; then timing it for a certain number of seconds, and checking the result. Crumpling clingfilm loosely in the litter tray (over the litter) is often an easy way to catch a little sample.
Anything over a 'trace' result is a reason to talk to your vet ASAP.
And because not all ketones are registered by the strips do also have an awareness of how your kitty's breath smells. If it smells fruity or like acetone that can indicate ketones.

Eliz
 
I know @Elizabeth and Bertie I though he was going so well at the start of the week.
He seemed fine with the fire works while we were up and have TV on. Not sure though after we went to bed and it was quiet... They were going on quiet late into the night.
What sort of things do you guys but online just the needles and get the insulin from the vets?
I'll see how my readings go today
 
If there is any possibility of doing so, I would ask if the vet can prescribe Prozinc rather than Caninsulin, because Prozinc is made specifically for cats. (Prozinc did well in the remission trials at the Royal Veterinary College.)

You may be able to save money on insulin by asking your vet for a prescription. A prescription will cost you about £15 probably, so you'll need to check prices online to see if you can save money that way. That is the only 'prescription' item though that I can see....
Pretty much everything else can be bought online, for example here:
https://www.petdrugsonline.co.uk/search/go?asug=&w=caninsulin

Eliz
 
Ok thank you. When I next see them if we're going the insulin route I'll mention that too then.
Is the glucose that your recommending in place of the glucogel tube? What's that actually for?
Will the insulin that they provide last a month?
I'll look on that site too.
Just done his second reading were coming down 16.1
He's such a troublesome cat likes to stress me out but I love him lol
 
Glucose is good to have to hand in case a cat goes too low (hypo - a potentially very serious situation). It's wise to read up on all this before you start giving insulin, so you can be aware of the possibility and the signs. Hopefully you'd avoid that if you were dosing low to start with and testing before every shot.

A vial of insulin should last well over a month but depending on how much you give each dose, of course. Other ongoing costs really aren't so bad if you shop online and buy things well in advance to prevent the need to buy urgent supplies from the vet or a high street chemist. Same goes for strips - many people buy these on ebay where they can be found much more cheaply - just check the sellers' reputation.

If you haven't seen it yet, it would be good to read up more on treating FD with insulin because it does look likely that that's what you'll have to do. There are a couple of guides here that I'll try to link. Knowledge is power!
 
Becki and sox said:
I have attached the paperwork with break down given from the vets
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Just looked at this and I think you can definitely shave a lot off these costs. There is NO need for an in-house curve or a fructo test, for one thing. A fructo test is simply a blood test that takes bg measurements over a period of two or three weeks and comes up with a number that determines if a cat is diabetic or not, or to what degree it is controlled. You don't need that if you are testing at home regularly. So that saves a big chunk already. You also don't need the Alphatrak starter kit as you have your own meter and you can get strips from ebay, as I mentioned before.

You may or may not have to get insulin from the vet but syringes can def be bought cheaper online from several sites that we can tell you about.
 
Ok great thank you.

I suppose once I've got my head round it and know what I can get supply wise from cheaper places it will get a lot easier.
Think it's just abit scary to start with isn't it.
 
So bloods for today

8.45am 19.7
Breakfast
11.00am 16.1
1.00pm 16.0
3.00pm 15.2 (100% meat treats given)
5.00pm 16.0
7.00pm 19.0
9.00pm 18.2
10.30pm 17.3
(Between 5 and 7 theres been quiet alot of fire works going off, could have accounted for the big jump between that time)
Just my final reading at 9pm to do and then will mix some butcher in with his food see how he is with that.
 
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OK well these numbers could be worse - some cats are well into the 20s when they're first dx. But these are definite diabetic numbers. I'd be surprised if a different food made a huge difference - but then you never know. Hopefully though it will make some difference and everything you can do to reduce carb intake should help. So if you now feed Butchers for a day or two, the readings you get then will be as low as you're going to see and you'll know whether you have to get started on insulin. If this is the case, don't delay too much - the sooner you start treatment the more manageable it should be.
 
@Diana&Tom yeah I did think at least there at least stable but still too high.
Will try mixing it in tonight and give it a day or 2. And then speak to the vets.

Are the vets usually ok with you saying you want to order your supplies on line and not through them... Or do some get a bit funny with you doing that?
 
Becki, you're in charge your cat and your finances, and you can choose to buy supplies wherever you like! I've not heard of vets getting funny about buying online, they're probably used to people doing that these days. They *might* try to persuade you to buy through them because they're making more profit from you, but there's no other reason for them to push you into It. If they do try to persuade you, stand your ground and ask "what are the advantages to me of buying through you?" - they'll have no answer to that. Or you could say that you've done a lot of research and found that you can buy supplies at a good price and you have no choice because you're on a tight budget... short of them asking to see your bank statements, they'd have no answer to that either!
 
Yeah that's what I was thinking. Just in the way I was asking about a human meter they were quiet pushy for the alphatrak.
But yes I'll definitely stand my ground with them.
 
Welcome Becki!

Looks like you are in a similar stage of the game as I am with Rhubarb. Tried diet change first, fixed dental issues, and now waiting a week or two for things to settle before starting insulin. I'm still playing a little bit with foods to see if anything is better.
One thing I have noticed is Rhubarb's glucose is usually higher first thing in the morning before I feed, something I will have to keep in mind once insulin starts. I noticed others commented already about food affecting cats differently.

I hope all goes well with your next vet visit! I don't have much to offer for support yet, but I know for me, it's nice seeing someone else in a similar position.
 
Hi @majandra

I've found my 2nd food type now I'm trying I'm hoping this one maybe better as it doesn't say it contains various sugars or vegetable origin like alot of the wet foods do.
So I'm hoping I may see a little difference here.
If not it looks like it will be insulin route but I'm hoping we won't need a great deal due to the numbers been a little lower.
Yeah Sox did drop the first couple of days quiet low down to 10.6 (189) one if the mornings but that seems to have gone higher now. Not sure if we're running abut higher though with all the fireworks going off the past few days.

Just see where we go from here. Hopefully Sox and rhubarb will start to settle soon
 
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