New to the forum, new pet owner overall

Good morning. My name is Chris. I adopted a beautiful cat in 2014, shortly after my niece passed away from Sandhoff Disease. Later that year, I ended up becoming the primary caregiver of my other niece with the same disease.

Waffle is a sweet boy who loves me and loves people. My niece has 24 hour nursing (somewhat... thanks to a nursing shortage) and every nurse that has walked into my house just loves him. 3 or so years ago he was diagnosed with UTI's and crystals, so we were put onto the Prescription Hills C/D.

In November of this year, Waffle started having super loose stools, something I had never seen before in him. He was also being weird about his food, but I felt it was because of the flavor of the PH food because the chicken flavor was very hard to come by and i had to resort to the fish flavor. I know he is finnicky about his food bc I've had similar issues before with him. I spent $500 on testing to figure out what was going on, only for the vets office to tell me that my cat could have an allergy to the fish flavor of food. I ended up finding a chicken flavor in another vets office and I started him on that.

Two weeks later, suddenly he is flooded his litter box and always at his water fountain. I initially was not too worried until he started walking weird. I called his vet and scheduled an appointment. Boom. he has diabetes. It came as a shock to me. Vet prescribes Prozinc, 2 units, food changed to Purina DM dry, and no more timed feedings throughout the day.

I have talked to my vet multiple times about cheaper insulins or at least an insulin I can obtain that is cheaper. I figure while Lantus is costly, it is easier to obtain as I have many people who have vials that are willing to bless me with. Vet shoots me down. Either way, I chose to listen to my vet and stick with the Prozinc. I bring up changing his cat food to a budget wet food, again turned down... she says to give Purina DM dry or wet only. I bring up testing his glucose at home because the glucose curves are costly... again shot down. We do the first glucose curve a month later. They tell me we can up the insulin dose to 3. meanwhile my cat STILL has the hind leg weakness and it hurts me to see him suffer this way. It is not getting better. I dont even know if the insulin dose is doing anything.

I decided this week to change him to another vet, if my niece had a dr that would not be willing to work with me, I would have changed drs... so why am i doing this to my cat? he deserves more.

either way, I just dont know what to do besides change vets. I'm so worried about his hindleg weakness. I just need help as to what to do next... especially because while I will do whatever I can for my baby, i also have to be realistic considering I have very limited funds which is why I wanted to try the lantus and at home glucose testing to avoid paying $200 in prozinc and another $150 in glucose curve testing every month.

Please let me know what I should do. I know this post is longwinded but I am so worried about my sweet baby.

 

Hi and welcome to the group. Waffle is adorable!!

The hindleg weakness sounds like a fairly common issue with kitties that have had unregulated diabetes for a while, known as neuropathy. Most often, kitties recover from this condition once they begin insulin therapy. But it can take 6-12 months in some cases. Personally, I am a huge fan of Lantus or other glargine brands because they helped my boy Hendrick so much and got him into remission. For the hindleg weakness, a B-12 supplement can help a lot. You might want to consider giving such a supplement to help recovery.

You are on the right track with doing hometesting and glucose curves at home. Much better than at the vet!

In order for the experts here to be able to help you and Waffle, they are going to need some basic information about Waffle

Age, weight, what exactly you are feeding, how much food, and when? Also set up your signature and spreadsheet for tracking. The folks here are very numbers driven it is fantastic, but they need data to analyze.

Check out this post here:

https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/new-how-you-can-help-us-help-you.216696/

 

Hi Chris and Waffle and welcome to the forum! You have come to the best place to get help for your beautiful boy.
I’m glad you swapped vets. You definitely need a vet that will work in partnership with you as you care for Waffle.
Prozinc is a good insulin but so is lantus. Is there a particular Reason you want to swap to Lantus?

Re the testing: we are strong advocates for home testing .it not only will keep your boy safe, it will tell you if the dose of insulin you are giving is the correct dose or if you need to increase or decrease. And it is much cheaper as well than getting curves at the vet.
Not sure where you live but if it is in the US, you can buy a ReliOn Pemier at Walmart cheaply and you will also need a box of 100 lancets size 26 or 28 gauge to prick the ear. And some cotton balls to hold behind the ear to test. And also a box of 100 test strips to go with the meter. Get a human meter as they are much cheaper to run than a pet meter and are just as good.
HOMETESTING HINTS AND LINKS

Re the food:
There is absolutely no need to feed Waffle a prescription food. And the Purina DM dry is high carb and not suitable.
I will give you a link to suitable low carb wet food. Look for foods that are 10% or under. Around 4-7% is what most of us feed.
Also look for some higher carb foods to put in your hypo kit in case of low numbers.information about the hypo kit is in one of the links below
FOOD CHART

Re the timing of food:
Just feeding twice a day to a diabetic cat is old thinking. We recommend feeding a main meal before both the insulin doses and then 2 or three snacks during all the cycles. A snack is one or 2 teaspoons of the low carb food. I would suggest the snacks are given in the first half of the cycles when the insulin is working the hardest say at +2 +4 and+6 or 7.

I am going to give you a link to HELP US HELP YOU which has the spreadsheet instructions and how to set up the signature and hypo kit. We can help you with dosing but we will need to see the data on the spreadsheet.

Lastly here is information about Prozinc.
NEW TO PROZINC
There is lots more we can tell you but I think that is enough for now.
Ask lots of questions, we are happy to answer them.
Bron

 

hello! ty for the response! researching b-12 is kind of what brought me to joining the forum. i see a lot of people using Zobaline (i think) but i saw a Pure brand on Amazon with very little fillers, no fructose or xylitol, in capsule form. Was thinking of trying that but i saw someone else mention one from Vitacost. i would prefer to use something others have used too especially initially.

Waffle is 9 years old, he eats twice a day at 9am and 9pm. He weighs 12 pounds but the vet would like for him to be around 10 pounds. (he was 15 for years but he lost when he was diagnosed) He eats a little under 2oz of Purina DM twice a day.

i will set up a spreadsheet tonight!! thanks for the help

 

yes Zobaline is what I have seen mentioned here most often. Many members have used it with great success.

Purina DM Savory Selects? This stuff?



Or do you mean the dry food..or maybe you're feeding both? The dry food is no good for diabetic cats no matter what any vet says. WAY too high in carbs (like 20% iirc). Here at the FDMB we are proponents of eliminating all dry kibble in feline diets, diabetic or otherwise.


Feeding the DM wet may be fine for Newman or you may need to go lower-carb. DM Savory Selects delivers about 10% of it's calories from carbs and for many diabetic cats, something around 5% (or even lower) is better for them. My boy Hendrick does fine on the DM Savory Selects but Newman may not. ECID! (Every Cat Is Different)

A 10 pound cat would need about 200 calories a day to maintain a healthy weight. If you're feeding the canned DM, Each can is 171 calories at 5.5 oz so I'd wager he is getting around 125 calories a day. Isn't he hungry all the time? My vet told me to only feed every 12 hours but that is a load of crap, cats do a lot better on multiple smaller meals throughout the day and it is easier on their little pancreas. Once I joined this group and learned that, I continued to feed a main meal every 12 hours with the insulin, but also a couple smaller meals in-between. If you're not home, you can use a timed feeder like the Petsafe brand.

 

You can give
Methyl B-12 for neuropathy it's tasteless ,just sprinkle it on the wet food and add water to it. Give one per day open the capsule sprinkle it on his wet food and add water and mix it up
https://www.vitacost.com/vitacost-vitamin-b-12-methylcobalamin-5000-mcg-100-capsules-6
14.49 for 100 capsules

Zobaline is crazy expensive for only 60 pills
Once you start to get Waffle's BG regulated and starting the Methyl B-12 you should start seeing an improvement
Tyler had neuropathy and he's back to walking and jumping
Took about less than 2 months, but every couple of weeks I saw improvement





Always aim for the sweet spot warm the ears up first, you can put rice in a sock and put it in the microwave, test it on the inside of your wrist to be sure it's not to hot, like you would test a babies bottle. You can fill a pill bottle with warm water and roll it on the ears also.Just keep rubbing the ears with your fingers to warm them up

6. As the ears get used to bleeding and grow more capilares, it gets easier to get the amount of blood you need on the first try. If he won’t stand still, you can get the blood onto a clean finger nail and test from there.
When you do get some blood you can try milking the ear.
Get you finger and gently push up toward the blood , more will appear
You will put the cotton round behind his ear in case you poke your finger, after you are done testing you will fold the cotton round over his ear to stop the bleeding , press gently for about 20 seconds until it stops
Get 26 or 28 gauge lancets
A lot of us use the lancets to test freehand not the lancing device
I find it better to see where I'm aiming
Look at the lancet under a light and you will see one side is curved upward, that's the side you want to poke with

A video one of our members posted, she is using a pet meter ,strips too expensive plus you have to code it
A human meter is just fine, most of us use human meters ,that's what our numbers are based on


VIDEO: How to test your cat's blood sugar

 

The dry purina pro plan diatetic food is 18% carbs which is high carb definitely not for diabetic cats

 

i’m sorry…. DM DRY. you are right. i have a petsafe feeder but i was afraid to use it bc my cat loves to wrestle with it to get extra kernals of food. vet was strict about not giving him any other food aside the food with insulin.

 

Ok, VERY important -- do not change what you are feeding without being very very careful as that can lead to a insulin overdose. If you suddenly eliminate the dry and switch to lower-carb wet he may need far less insulin. So a food change needs to be done very carefully with lots of monitoring Newman's BG.

 

i can just get lantis a lot easier and cheaper than prozinc. of course, if the prozinc is working better, i’ll stick with it unless i’m terribly low on funds. my only question is how long it lasts. the manufacturer of prozinc suggests it last 60days for 10ml vial after using but 80 days if it’s the 20ml vial. i contacted them and asked if the two sizes have different formulas or anything and they said no so i figure i could at least go 80 days after opening the 10ml, but idk how true my thinking is lol

i have um a glucose monitor. it’s tru metrix brand, i believe. will that work?

thank you!! this is what i wanted, like options for waffle. a list where i can find my own research and find the best food for my budget.

ty so much!

 

i’m gonna buy another bag of DM dry today bc i have no food left but i do plan on switching him to wet soon enough. do you suggest i see the new vet first?

 

Tap on this blue link I did a search here on our forum and found this posted by some members, of course you need to keep it in the fridge
https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/how-long-can-a-vial-be-used-after-been-opened.207653/

 

seeing the new vet first isn't necessary, the critical part is lots of monitoring of Newman's BG as you transition. A gradual transition is probably best.

 

Any human meter is fine , if you are trying to keep costs down
that's what our numbers are based on
If you live in the US you can pick up from Walmart The Relion Premier Classic meter and test strips

https://www.walmart.com/ip/ReliOn-Premier-CLASSIC-Blood-Glucose-Monitoring-System/552134103. 9 dollars

https://www.walmart.com/ip/ReliOn-Premier-Blood-Glucose-Test-Strips-100-Count/575088197. 17.88 for 100


The strips for the Relion might be cheaper than the onesfir the try metrix
I like Lantus
Lantus is expensive in the US but the have a generic now that's so much more affordable

If you do switch to Lantus it is expensive in the US, Many members use the generic
You can have the vet write the script for generic lantus ,many members use it
Here is some info
Check this out also
https://www.goodrx.com/insulin-glargine?dosage=five-3ml-prefilled-pens-of-100-units-ml&form=carton&label_override=insulin glargine&quantity=1
The 5 pens will last about a year, we use the pens just like a vial, you would just insert the syringe it the gray rubber stopper on the pen and draw out your insulin
Its generic lantus



Or this one also

I see some members will call CVS, Rite Aid, Costco, Walgreen's, to get the price for 5 pens
Posted by another member
One members posted this
. I paid $175 for a box of 5 pens at Walmart pharmacy, but GoodRX coupon says you can get it for around $90 if you have a Rite Aid pharmacy near you.

You will also need to buy U-100 syringes with half unit markings if you switch to generic lantus

You can also get the syringes with half unit markings at a Walmart. Their ReliOn Brand syringes of 0.3 cc (30 unit) capacity come with half unit markings. Cost $12.58 for a box of 100
This is what the packaging looks like: either box
They won't say it half unit on the box but the are . open then and look before you leave the store, can't be ordered on line , need to go into the store
:









@sexidance

 

If you plan to change to an all low carb diet you need to be Home Testing for sure because taking away the dry food can drop Waffle's BG by 100 points
TRANSITIONING FROM DRY TO WET FOOD

Be sure to have these at home for your hypo kit



Such as
med and high carb wet food and some honey?


Fancy Feast Gravy Lovers Gourmet Beef Feast in Grav
20% High Carbs

Fancy Feast Gravy Lovers Gourmet Chicken Feast in Gravy 15% Med Carbs

Fancy Feast Gravy Lovers Turkey Feast in Gravy 15% Med Carbs

Fancy Feast Gravy Lovers Chicken and Beef in Gravy 15% Med Carbs

Good idea to mark the cans with magic marker how many carbs

Or any on the food chart. Doesn't have to be Fancy Feast just an example about the med and high carb foods
And some honey in the house

https://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/dr-pierson-new-food-

Between 11% and 17% is medium carbs.

18% and over is high carb.

@sexidance

 

If you are still concerned about crystals and uti ,this is what I have been feeding Tyler , his mucus plug was blocked on 11-2- 2022 but no crystals , cost me 1288.00 to unblock him.
Of course the ER I took him to suggested prescription dry food ,but it was way to high in carbs
I talked to my vet and told him I found this and he said yes it was fine
So far so good. Knock on wood
So I switched him from the Fancy Feast Pate to this
https://www.walmart.com/ip/24-Pack-...d-Chicken-Entree-3-oz-Pull-Top-Cans/445542420
They sell it at Walmart, Pet Smart, Petco so at least you can go to the stores instead of ordering on line . You can order them on line also from Amazon and Chewey

They do sell single 3 ounce cans and 5.5 ounce cans if you don't want to buy a 24 pack to see if Waffle likes it

It is more expensive than Fancy Feast

Depending on which store you go to the 3 ounce cans can cost around 1.54 a can and the 5.5 ounce around 1.98 a can. Like I said depends on which store you go to .

 

I agree with everyone has said so far. You can feed him more throughout the day. It’s eaiser on their pancreas. Freeze dried treats are a good low carb option too.

you don’t need to see the new vet first to transition away from the dry food. You just need to start testing. I’m not familiar with the meter you have, but the most expensive part of testing is the cost of the test strips. Walmart’s ReliOn is the cheapest, about $17.99 for 100, and the meter only costs $9 so it may be better to go with it

Minnie also developed severe neuropathy. She couldn’t jump or even get in and out of the litterbox. I had pee pads all over the house but she recovered about 99% once she was regulated. I used the Vitacost version and it worked fine for us

 

I like glargine insulin better than ProZinc. Lantus is one brand name for glargine insulin. As others have said generic glargine is much less expensive in the USA. Use a GoodRx coupon and on the page select generic in the pull down menu and also select a carton of pens (a carton is 5, 3ml pens), just use the pen as a vial. Most paces will NOT sell a single pen.
A vial of ProZinc contains 400 unit. The usual starting dose is 1 unit twice daily. At that dose a vial of ProZinc will last ~200 days. Each pen of glargine insulin contains 300 units.

 

Thank you all for giving me so much good energy and motivation. i have made the new vet appointment for Tuesday and I am in the process of finding the right food for Waffle that is low in carb but also fits within my budget.

My only issue is how much to feed him. Currently, he is getting about 300 or so calories of the purina DM dry. His vet said he should probably be about 10 pounds so I know he is still considered overweight at 12 pounds. (he was 15 for many years and only lost the weight as he was diabetic). should i strive for the 300 calories or should i find something that would help him lose weight. This also helps to figure out how many cans of food he needs througouht the month. I will also be making the spreadsheet tonight too.

thanks, family!

 

There are two formulas I've seen: 20 x ideal weight in pounds, or [13.6 x ideal weight in pounds] +70

but with a newly diagnosed, unregulated diabetic feline I wouldn't worry about overfeeding. They are generally always hungry because their bodies cannot make use of the food properly due to the diabetes. After he begins to get regulated and his BG is lower, around 200 calories a day would be more appropriate if his ideal weight is 10 pounds.

 

What he said

that’s a good formula to figure out daily calorie intake but unregulated cats need more food because they can’t process nutrients efficiently. Also, since there’s sugar in their urine, they burn calories just by peeing

 

You've gotten some great information!

Lantus (glargine) is a very appropriate insulin. The American Animal Hospital Assn recommends either Lantus or Prozinc for the treatment of feline diabetes. Your vet may be promoting Prozinc because you have to buy it from the vet. Larry provided very useful information about how to purchase the generic/biosimilar version of Lantus which is much less expensive than the brand name. An alternative is to order through Canada (Marks Marine Pharmacy) but since the biosimilar is now available, it's quicker to purchase locally. You may need to call around to find a pharmacy that stocks the biosimilar. If you do know people that have extra pens or vials, even better! You may want to do a bit of reading about Lantus since it is different than Prozinc. This is a link to the Lantus forum and you may want to review the sticky notes at the top of the board.

There is nothing special about diabetic cat food that makes it prescription worthy. In fact, the manufacturers recently lost a class action suit because they were calling these food "prescription" foods. Vets have been indoctrinated by the pet food companies into thinking there is something special about the prescription foods. Given how little training most vets have in nutrition-related topics, I doubt they bother to even read the ingredients in the food. If they did, they would realize that the "powdered cellulose" that's in the DM is actually another term for sawdust. Cats do better on a canned food diet. They need the moisture that's in canned food. A diabetic cat needs to be fed a low carbohydrate diet. You have lots of choices. This is a chart containing nutritional information on most of the canned cat foods available in the US. Most of the members here opt for either Fancy Feast or Friskies pate-style varieties as these are lower cost options.

I would get comfortable with managing Waffle's diabetes before jumping in to a weight loss program. I'm linking a website on feline nutrition. There's great information on the site about feline nutrition in general. There's also a section on obesity that will provide guidelines on how to help you work on managing Waffle's weight.

 

I wanted to thank everyone for the help! We just got back from Waffle's new vet appointment a few hours ago. She was very pleasant and warm. She said he looked good. He gained 2 ounces, which is great. She wants me to complete a glucose curve on my own then again in two weeks when i switch him over to wet food. she did mention the alphatrak and kind of would not hear otherwise when i suggested something else. is there a formula that switches the human glucose # to the alphatrak #?

i really am trying to combine my own research with this forum with my vet because I do believe that is important, so please forgive me if I seem a little slow to come around. I definitely wanted to make sure the changes were all good with my new vet.

what does everyone think when it comes to the glucose checking?

 

Hello from me too. I'm glad your new vet is a fan of home testing. And sounds like she is supportive of the food plan too.

The test strips for the AT are hugely expensive compared to the human ones. Plus you can only get them at the vet or online, which may not be convenient at the time of emergency. The meter itself is also more expensive. Try pleading cost with the vet. When I started here, almost no one used pet meters and we all (including vets) used human meters cause that's pretty much all there was. Our dosing methods were written using human meters in mind too, so we don't need the AT.

We don't convert numbers from one type of meter to the other, there is no way to make the conversion. We've had several people compare their human meter to the AT, but even then there wasn't a clear conversion method. The AT will read higher numbers than the human meter in high blood sugar values, and get closer to the human meter numbers in lower numbers, where it counts.

What some people do (if they can afford it), is to buy an AT and strips for curves sent to the vet, but use a human meter the rest of the time. It's always good to have a back up meter anyway.

 

ty so much for getting back to me. i already purchased the AT for pretty cheap. i have a glucose monitor at home so maybe i’ll do what you said about using the AT for vet checks! ty for the great idea!

 

FWIW, My Vet gave me a hard time at first when I started using a human meter. We were at an appointment and he tested Cleo on his AT2 -bg 352, then my freestyle lite hand held meter - BG 272. His exact words were "this is a problem." I smiled and asked him "Why? 272 or 352 or 450 what does it matter , high is high. I'm looking for patterns and trends. Plus 50 AT2 strips cost $55 on Chewy". Thank you FDMB!
His concern wasn't with the higher numbers rather with the lower ones and possible hypoglycemia. He asked that I double check low BGs on the human meter with the AT2. And YES, it's great having a backup meter.