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wombat88

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Shaikha isn't new to diabetes, but we are new to PZI, having started it on 3/27. Shaikha previously used Vetsulin (yes, I know it was dc'd, but my vet had some bottles left and she did so well on it, we used them all up). I've updated her chart as well as I can. There are probably some other numbers in the meter but recent history is there. Prior to Feb. of this year, she was very well-controlled, so much so that I got a little sloppy with record-keeping. In late January her pancreatitis started flaring up. Not long after that, she developed a very high fever, which we think was due to a UTI, something she's gotten before when her sugar levels go wild. Usually when she gets pancreatitis flares, her BG levels start increasing and eventually she gets tough to control. UTIs often happen because she spills sugar in her urine during these flareups, and we think that is what occurred this time. At any rate, her BG levels were off the chart and she developed neuropathy (ok now with the help of methylcobalamin). After she recovered, we tried to lower the prednisolone dose she was taking to control her pancreatitis symptoms. I also tried switching her to budesonide, but we were unable to wean her off the pred. The combination of the two steroids, I think, or possibly just being unstable after the infection, has resulted in much higher BG levels than she'd had. Previously, I could always count on her being below 250 before meals, and sometimes insulin wasn't needed at all or I gave a nominal dose (AM usually the worst, PM is usually best for BG). Since her infection, she's gotten readings way too often in the 300 or 400 ranges as her chart shows.

I've transitioned her off budesonide as of this Sunday, and that does seem to have helped. I also had her on d-mannose for the UTI, but am beginning to think that is a bad idea since there was a little uptick in her BG and it is a sugar (found one post by a urologist talking about how there are reports of it increasing BG levels in humans; didn't find anything about cats).

Basically, I need to get her stable. She's been on PZI for less than a month, but I still haven't found the happy levels of it to give her. Am also in desperate need of doing a curve. I plan to do that this weekend. I've had another cat that was very ill that unfortunately passed last week, so the past few weeks were a blur trying to keep him alive or dealing with this. Oh, and on top of this Shaikha also developed anemia, so that was another worry because that is part of what let to my other cat's demise along with renal failure. The good news is that her PCV yesterday was 21%, so we are heading in the right direction. We think she may have had a GI bleed from the combination of budesonide and pred. She's on sucralfate as a preventative. Getting her off steroids isn't going to happen unless I want an acute pancreatitis attack to deal with. Even with the slowest taper imaginable, I've not been able to get her below 5 mg. per day on prednisolone without triggering problems.

Thanks in advance for any advice on how to get her better stabilized. I had the Vetsulin figured out pretty well, but PZI is a puzzle so far but she's also not been entirely well either. I am sure the residual inflammation from the last flareup which was pretty bad, along with the kidney infection, didn't help matters. I suspect that also had something to do with her anemia (possibly due to the chronic infection and the body stealing away iron to prevent feeding it, triggering anemia).
 
Hi and Welcome to our little group.

You've sure had a lot to deal with, I'm so sorry you lost one of you furbabies.

I'm just leaving work now but wanted to say hi, will be back on later
 
Welcome, and sorry you've had such a rough month! :YMHUG:
Most of us have moved from dry to low carb wet foods. There are lots of options, just check Binky's list.
You're curve this weekend will help a lot. Most PZI kitties have lows between 3-6 hours after shot. When Maisey went low, I could count on a big bounce up to follow. Everyone here helped teach me to shoot the low and not the bounce. She actually did better the lower I went. I also don't have a huge well of experience, as she was only on insulin for a month.
You will find everyone very helpful and concerned about you and your furry family.
 
Kathyh said:
Most of us have moved from dry to low carb wet foods. There are lots of options, just check Binky's list.

Yes, I know that diabetics do best on low carb foods, but I've had several problems with that (I've been through Binky's list many times!). First, she won't eat wet food so unless I wish to assist feed her 100% of the time, it isn't happening. She's really, really stubborn. I've had periods where I've been able to get her to eat more wet food than others, but usually not enough to survive on. She's a kibble cat, unfortunately, and does not seem to wish to change. I've tried, believe me. Her having IBD complicates matters, because I have to make any change very slowly or we end up with issues from that too. She seems to tire of the wet foods very quickly (within 1-2 days), but with the IBD I can't constantly switch her. Dry foods, on the other hand, she'll eat for months at a time without tiring of them. Second, many of the wet foods that are low carb seem to trigger her pancreatitis, I'm guessing due to fat content but I don't know. My other cat that passed mostly ate blended wet food, and if she got into it, she'd always get sick. Even a tiny bit seems to be enough to cause huge problems. For whatever reason, we've had the best luck with her pancreatitis and IBD with grain-free, dry kibbles using novel proteins. It may not be the best for her diabetes, but I'll take that over nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea in a Persian cat due to pancreatitis and IBD flareups! She's been very tricky to manage that way, unfortunately. I also can't chance things like a raw diet because she's immune-compromised. Complicated kitty, this one!
 
Just wanted to say hello and welcome to the PZI forum. I don't have a lot of experience with cases where there are other health issues so don't have a lot of advice (lots of encouragement though), but others on the forum are great. So sorry about the pancreatitis. Seeing other kitties on the forum with it, I know it can be a bear. You are a great mama to take such good care of Shaikha. And so sorry to hear of the loss of your fur baby. Sounds like you've had a rough time. Hope things get better for you and Shaikha soon.
 
Wendy I have'nt even looked at your SS yet but first wanted to welcome you to PZI and our little group. You are obviously not new to meds and kitty health care....I could barely keep up with your treatment plan...but I do understand you will be on the 0 grain kibble and that is fine under your circomstances.
I hope I can partner up with you as you've touched my heart with all your going thru....I want to take a look at you SS and see how it's going.
So after that perhaps I'll have more to say.
For now.....,(((((((Wendy))))))) and ((((((((Shikia)))))
 
Oh dear, well the good news is that you've been here for awhile so I'm not going to say anything that you have'nt heard before I'm sure.
And that is....we need to see those mid cycle tests. Not every day mind you....would be nice tho'.
As often as possible.
This kitty could likely be getting TOO much insulin as well as too little.
Did I read you will be doing a curve? That will be so very helpful....however after so long a time it may not be enough info on just one curve.
Are you able to get some routine +6's or so?
 
It looks like Robin will be back on board in a bit...I'm going out now, I'm in Ca. so west coast time.
I will likely check in on you when I get back at 9-10pm. Where are you in the USA? which coast?
What time do you shoot?
See you later Wendy.
Lori
 
Welcome Wendy and Shaikha!
Just wanted to poke my head in and say hi. I am sure you will like the group. There are very knowledgable and friendly folks here that help us so much.
My cat Asher was dx’ed in January and we have been here since. Thank god for FDMB.
Sounds like you have been thru a lot. I wish you healing from all of that and also for good numbers and health for Shaikha on PZ.

Donna and Asher
 
lori and tom said:
I will likely check in on you when I get back at 9-10pm. Where are you in the USA? which coast? What time do you shoot?
See you later Wendy.
Lori

I'm in Alabama. Usually I give her insulin around 6:30-7:00 AM and PM. My work schedule varies, so it can be tough sometimes to keep it very regular, but I try. Since she's been tougher to regulate on the PZI, my husband is now on board with giving shots at least. He won't test, though. I will have to figure out some way of bribing him to do that.

Wendy
 
lori and tom said:
Oh dear, well the good news is that you've been here for awhile so I'm not going to say anything that you have'nt heard before I'm sure.
And that is....we need to see those mid cycle tests. Not every day mind you....would be nice tho'.
As often as possible.
This kitty could likely be getting TOO much insulin as well as too little.
Did I read you will be doing a curve? That will be so very helpful....however after so long a time it may not be enough info on just one curve.
Are you able to get some routine +6's or so?

Yes, I'll do a curve tomorrow, but can try to work one in on Sunday as well around church if that would help. It seems that PZI is longer lasting than the Vetsulin from what I've read, so it seems like I'll need to tweak it more. I assume the routine +6's you refer to are because of when this insulin typically reaches nadir? What do you mean by a "mid cycle test"? A full curve, or do you typically test at certain hours in addition to before meals? I got spoiled with the Vetsulin because it was very forgiving of my schedule, so if I was late it didn't create huge problems usually. I'm trying to be much more careful with this insulin since she's much higher on the BG than she was previously. After dealing with the neuropathy after her fever, I really don't want to risk her getting sicker because of the levels being uncontrolled.

We didn't have a good PMPS tonight -- 417 (ouch), so the curves will be interesting. One thing I thought was different in reading the literature was that its duration is only 9-10 hours. That surprised me because I thought the goal was 12 hours? You still only do two shots per day, correct?

One thing I think is complicating matters with Shaikha is that when her pancreas acts up, she's really hard to regulate. I'm guessing it is because it pumps out unpredictable amounts of insulin, so her numbers tend to get all over the place.
 
Wendy does pancreatities respond to antibiotics?
And yes the mid cycle tests are to find out when the nadir actually is...so one day a +5, then a next time a +6 and then next time a +7....play around with it until you get an idea of when the nadir occurs.
PZI is much more forgiving of time than let's say Levemir or Lantus so don't be too hard on yourself ok.
And the duration may be 10 hours but then the curve back upwards takes place. So all in all you should have relatively bookmark amps and pmps.

Will be very interested in your curve.
And yes DH will have to test before shooting...this would be the only absolute rule. You would never shoot insulin into a human being without testing...so never do it to a cat.
((((Wendy))))))
and Happy Easter
Lori
 
lori and tom said:
Wendy does pancreatities respond to antibiotics?
And yes the mid cycle tests are to find out when the nadir actually is...so one day a +5, then a next time a +6 and then next time a +7....play around with it until you get an idea of when the nadir occurs.
PZI is much more forgiving of time than let's say Levemir or Lantus so don't be too hard on yourself ok.
And the duration may be 10 hours but then the curve back upwards takes place. So all in all you should have relatively bookmark amps and pmps.

Will be very interested in your curve.
And yes DH will have to test before shooting...this would be the only absolute rule. You would never shoot insulin into a human being without testing...so never do it to a cat.
((((Wendy))))))
and Happy Easter
Lori

No, pancreatitis usually doesn't require antibiotics unless it is necrotic. Usually all you can do is give fluids, pain killers, and things to try to calm down nausea when it flares up. She did run a fever both times she had very acute cases, however, so we did give some antibiotics along with IV fluids. If the attack is less severe I can treat myself with subQ fluids. Some cats even need plasma infusions if it is bad enough. It is a nasty disease. What often happens with her though is that her BG goes wild before the attack symptoms show up (pain usually in addition to going off food), and the higher sugar levels usually trigger a UTI. That's why she's on antibiotics right now.

As a rule I don't give insulin without testing first, but sometimes if I can't get home we have to skip giving it (because it would come too late). Once I had her stable on Vetsulin though on occasion I had a friend give insulin without testing when I was away for short periods, simply because it was too much to ask otherwise (my other cat required tons of care, so it was sort of a cat hospital around here). Since she's been less stable I'll admit that I've had my husband give her the PM dose 2-3 times without testing because I knew she was high anyway and without it would be even worse. I'm going to have to figure out a way of bribing him to do the testing, but I'm not sure he'll cooperate. On days I can't get home from work until very late PM, she may have to go without the PM dose.

What will be trickier is that I'll be overseas for a few weeks soon for work. A friend is willing to learn to test BG and I think she'll do okay with it, but we'll have to rely a lot on my vet to help her interpret it -- along with calls on Google Voice or emails to talk her through what it all means. I'm just hoping she stays stable on her other conditions with no flareups while I'm gone. That's my big worry, along with keeping her BG levels in better ranges.
 
Hi Wendy, sorry I didn't get back last night.

First PZ is very flexible and can be worked around your schedule by adjusting the doses for early/late shots. I used to have 1 late shot night every week. Although it would be best if DH (dear husband) would be on board.

Second, there are other members dealing with pancreatitis and can provide alot of information to you. Laura & Harley just switched from PZ to Lev during a severe attack and Harley had to have a transfusion. If you go over to the Lev forum and read through her intro thread (4/10 - 12/11 - Harley introduction, ER Vet Visit & Home) she received a ton of information that would be valuable to you too, you may already know all of it but it is worth the read and you will get to know the other folks who are going through a similar situation as you.

I'm looking forward to your curve this weekend, my initial sense is that your dose may be too high, a curve will let us know for sure.

Glad you found us, welcome to our little family.

Robin
 
Wendy whoever is caring for Shaika while you are abroad can and I hope will log on here and keep the dialogue going....chart you ss and all. Would that be too much to ask of her? I know it's so hard when you have a lot on your plate this way but you seem to be handling so well.
I did'nt see this morning's number and dose...
Perhaps you posted new?
Why don't you start a new post each day with a subject 'Shaika, amps ----- shot-----" just so she will be easy to follow.
Lori
 
Wendy looking at you SS again. With the lack of test we don't know if she is just perhaps in chronic rebound. We have seen this happen all too often. A sudden low number not noted...or a chain of lowered nadirs not noted and the body recovering from the addition of yet more insulin than it needs by having the liver spit out glucose into the system....when chronic can result in a while to detect and then suddenly a cat seems to require much less insulin.
Trust me....I did it to my own kitty last year. True he may have had an infection going...but I can clearly see now where I was overpumping the insulin and our numbers were to the moon.
If you look at my current chart PLEASE do not note what I am currently shooting and the numbers I am shooting into as we are now on Levemir which operates on a completely different time line ok. NOT to be confused with PZI
 
Rob & Harley said:
Second, there are other members dealing with pancreatitis and can provide alot of information to you. Laura & Harley just switched from PZ to Lev during a severe attack and Harley had to have a transfusion. If you go over to the Lev forum and read through her intro thread (4/10 - 12/11 - Harley introduction, ER Vet Visit & Home) she received a ton of information that would be valuable to you too, you may already know all of it but it is worth the read and you will get to know the other folks who are going through a similar situation as you.

Wow, Robin, what an interesting thread! Thanks for pointing it out to me. Harley's case sounds a lot like Shaikha, with the exception she thankfully doesn't have liver disease with it. I'll be interested to see how the curve goes on the PZI now. After reading the Lev board, if it doesn't seem to control her that well, perhaps I will need to look into that insulin instead. I was surprised to see them talking about shooting below 200 too. That was drilled into me as a no-no, but perhaps different insulins have different rules. I thought it was interesting that for some of the pancreatitis cats though, Lev seemed to make them less prone to attacks. We opted for PZI because was more similar to the Vetsulin she'd been using. We'll see if we can get her managed on it.

Wendy
 
lori and tom said:
Wendy whoever is caring for Shaika while you are abroad can and I hope will log on here and keep the dialogue going....chart you ss and all. Would that be too much to ask of her? I know it's so hard when you have a lot on your plate this way but you seem to be handling so well.
I did'nt see this morning's number and dose...
Perhaps you posted new?
Why don't you start a new post each day with a subject 'Shaika, amps ----- shot-----" just so she will be easy to follow.
Lori

I saw those posts, but didn't know what they were for. There were so many -- how do you guys keep track of them all, especially on a daily basis? I will set one up for today's curve.

Not sure if my friend would be amenable to posting here, but I can ask her.

Wendy
 
The people here on this site are a wealth of information on all things kitty, not just diabetes.

PZI is a totally different insulin than Lev and the PZI rules are completely different than the Lev rules.

PZ and Vetsulin definately have a no shoot number of 200. Untill you have enough testing data on your ss to know how the insulin is working in your cat, then you can lower your no shoot number to 180 etc.
 
i agree robin that no shoot # is 200....however, it seems there is currently enuf data that this kitty goes one direction with no shot and that is UP. don't you think a token dose on a rising amps is ok?
 
lori and tom said:
i agree robin that no shoot # is 200....however, it seems there is currently enuf data that this kitty goes one direction with no shot and that is UP. don't you think a token dose on a rising amps is ok?

I've used token doses on Vetsulin, but have been afraid to do so with this new insulin because I didn't have enough experience with it. Will be interested in your feedback on that score, because no shot at night definitely makes her way too high by the AM.
 
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